Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
To clarify your statement, the Lion is a symbol of strength not violence....and it was a lamb looking as if it was slain who could open the seals....seals that were full of violence. And how did he open them? ...by absorbing the violence (it killed him) and in so doing revealing the character of God that no one would have guessed....not even the angels.
In other words, we have a first hand, direct, unmitigated view into the heart of God. He does not dish out violence, he absorbs it....thats how he deals with it.
Now you might ask, what to do with all the texts that appear to make God appear violent?.....an interesting question but the subject of another discussion.
Our danger is superimposing our desire for revenge/payback onto God. Humans want a God who will validate their own feelings of hate towards the opposition......quiet a trick ole nick has pulled off there!
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Great question because as you correctly stated, not all Christians are “elected” by God. They had a purpose and they knew upon their anointing with God’s spirit, exactly what God has chosen them to do. (Revelation 20:6)
The Kingdom of God was the solution to the fall in Eden. It was God’s means of providing a way to restore everything that was lost by those first three rebels. So, what did we lose?
The fact that God evicted the humans from the paradise he had lovingly prepared for them, and cursed the ground from which they would have to eke out their means of living, shows us his complete displeasure with what they were persuaded to do. He did not take their lives immediately, but allowed them to populate the earth as he had instructed them.....but not having access to “the tree of life”, the humans physically died within the “day” that they ate from the forbidden fruit. (2 Peter 3:8) Yet spiritually they had died to him already. (“Dead in their trespasses and sins”)
Along with this eviction, the devil came to reveal something else that God had done with regard to that fist rebel, who became known as satan the devil...which was not a name, but rather a description of his evil qualities.
Luke 4:5-8 describes one of the temptations given to Jesus by the devil. In that account, the devil revealed that he had been given “all the kingdoms of the world” to do with as he pleased. Meaning that 1 John 5:19 explains why the world has experienced so much trouble during all of man’s history. God has never ruled this world.
So, world rulership was completely tied up with the devil’s influence.....and only world rulership restored by, and to it’s Creator, would fix it. It would come at a price....but God would provide it at great cost to himself....the sacrifice of his beloved “firstborn” son who paid for our release from the debt that Adam and his wife passed on to us. (Romans 5:12)
The operation of the Kingdom of God was something that was presented to God’s ancient people only in vague terms.....until the coming of the Messiah. Jesus made the coming of God’s kingdom his main focus. (John 18:33-37) In the Lord’s Prayer, Jesus taught his disciples to pray for God’s Kingdom to “come”, so that His will could be “done, on earth as it is in heaven”.
Daniel 2:44 prophesied that God would bring in his Kingdom by “crushing” all failed human rulership under the devil’s control, out of existence, and replacing them with the rulership of the His own appointed King and those he had selected to become “kings and priests” in that Kingdom. God has carefully chosen his King and all who will assist him in restoring mankind in reconciliation, giving the redeemed human race the opportunity to live the life their Creator planned for them all along. (Isaiah 55:11)
The choosing of this group began in the first century, and through many difficulties created by the formation of Christendom throughout history, has continued to this day.
This is what makes sense to me.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Please provide scripture that states this. A direct statement from either God or his Christ that they are equal parts of a three in one “godhead” shared with the Holy Spirit.
Unless you can produce this scripture, your assumption based purely on inference and suggestion, is baseless.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Why Do The Elect Need to Be Persuaded?
The expressions used 5 times in Romans 5 between vs 15-19 ie, 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' make it clear to me that all are included with no exceptions.
The question is, do we believe that God could/would be so generous in the given circumstances of an actively rebellious race?
Yes, 5 times Paul reiterates the same point just to make sure we don't miss it....and blow me down, it is still missed by many.
The expressions used 5 times in Romans 5 between vs 15-19 ie, 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' make it clear to me that all are included with no exceptions.
The question is, do we believe that God could/would be so generous in the given circumstances of an actively rebellious race?
Yes, 5 times Paul reiterates the same point just to make sure we don't miss it....and blow me down, it is still missed by many.
Before meeting Him, it is not even types and shadows for any man, but blindness. When we do first really meet Him then we may begin to see although it is certainly is a vision seen only as shadows or as through darkened glass [as through a glass darkly]. Those not yet clearly defined sketches of reality are not Reality but if we pursue them toward that face to face vision it will be Reality toward which we approach.
People who have met Him, but choose to stand still too long will begin to sink again into blindness in the things of God losing even that which they were given...
"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:12-15
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Well, if you are going to take wrath and the armies of the Lord away from God...get ready.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
It would be lovely if you asked, 'if Gods wrath is not violence against his creatures, then what is it?' but seeing you're not asking, any explanation probably wouldn't make sense. To take it even further, any explanation would be interpreted as a threat to the view around which so much eschatological theology is built around.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:"
Who was the only Lord God that Israel knew.....how many was their Lord God יְהֹוָ֥ה...one or three?
Pathetic attempt...sorry. Try again....
You need either God or Jesus admitting to be a three in one "godhead" along with the holy spirit......OK....?
Have you conveniently forgotten -- or simply ignored -- other passages where Christ says that He us the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? So Yahweh applies to both the Father and the Son.
That's exactly how I thought at the age of 25 and before I was born again. When God commanded that the Canaanites be put to "the ban", He declared them to be holy as dedicated to destruction. The reason is given in scripture. He didn't want the children of Israel corrupted by the pagan practices of the Canaanites, but to be holy and given to obedience to the covenant He made with them at Horeb. The canaanites practiced ritual sex and infanticide among other evil practices and the law has many ritual observances, such as not wearing clothing with mixed weaves, specifically to make Israel different from the surrounding nations.
If you're careful in your reading, you'll also see that God foretold that Israel would fail to keep the law, and an omniscient God certainly knew that Israel would fail to keep the ban on the canaanites and that these would become thorns in their sides.
Like you, as a young man I couldn't reconcile Jesus to a God that would kill men, women, and children to preserve holiness. In the old testament God's angels even killed His Chosen people for breaking His commandments and this was an offense to my carnal mind. But the truth is, God didn't make men evil, but good. Doing evil was Adam's choice in choosing to disobey God, and Adam's corrupted nature was passed on to all humanity. One of Adam's first two sons murdered the other and sin has reigned on Earth since then. Murder is in the heart of man, but those who are taught by God are drawn to Christ and Christ was first preached to Adam and Eve in the simplest and earliest form of the gospel:
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.” Genesis 3:15
The same chapter includes the first blood sacrifice to cover the nakedness of our sin:
21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. Genesis 3:21
Throughout history God used evil men to judge evil nations with the sword, to put an end to their evil works. He couldn't use good men to do this because we aren't good, just evil to varying degrees. Even His Chosen people Israel were not chosen for being good, but God chose to love them and set them apart because of the oath that He made to Abram, Isaac, and Jacob.
Chapter 7 of Deuteronomy describes "the ban" on the Canaanites, the order to utterly destroy them and gives this reason:
For they will turn your sons away from following Me, to serve other gods; so the anger of the Lord will be aroused against you and destroy you suddenly. Deuteronomy 7:4
Jesus taught mercy, grace, and love, but even as revealed by the law and the prophets. It may not seem loving to command such cruel punishment against an evil people, but even this was an expression of love toward His Chosen people, to preserve them from destruction, despite the fact that He knew that they would rebel against Him and suffer curses and death because of it.
It might help to understand that the ministry of the law was the ministry of angels. Angels weren't given the option of choice, but were created to do God's will. Transgression required punishments and more often than not that punishment was death. The angels don't understand grace or why God would spare some and not others. Do you?
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, Hebrews 2:2-3
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 2 Peter 2:4-9
God created us. He gives life and takes life. Who are we to judge Him? More significantly, can God be called loving if He allows us to continue in violence and sin against each other, and especially against those that He's granted the grace to believe Him.
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth. Genesis 6:11-12
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Genesis 6:5-8
After the flood, man still possessed the same evil nature and God said as much:
20 Then Noah built an altar to the Lord, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. 21 And the Lord smelled a soothing aroma. Then the Lord said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. Genesis 8:20-21
It was at this same time that God established a covenant with mankind, all the descendents of Noah, and included the basis for all law:
5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.
6 “Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.
7 And as for you, be fruitful and multiply;
Bring forth abundantly in the earth
And multiply in it.” Genesis 9:5-7
God established law and judgment by the hand of man to restrain our violence against one another. That's an expression of love my friend. Love protects the object or person that is it's subject.
However, men have never been fully restrained by law, and heaven (the heavenly powers, principalities, rulers and authorities assigned by God to govern men) has used the sword to punish and displace nations that have failed to use law to restrain our violence upon each other.
There is a sense in which the whole of the Old Testament is revealing God's holiness in contrast to our lack of the same, but Jesus made it clear that the Old Testament scriptures were those that testified of Him, not just Messianic passages, but that He is the full Revelation of the God of the Old Testament. Jesus spoke very plainly about God's righteous judgment of sin and it should be understood that His judgment is God's judgment:
13 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” Luke 13:1-5
According to scripture, every soul that sins is worthy of death and everyone sins. A newborn is innocent, but given enough time will sin. God has confined the whole world under sin, but the real point of scripture is that in doing so He also provided an escape from death and eternal condemnation. A way to redeem mankind to Himself,by visiting the Earth and giving His own innocent blood in propitiation for our sin.
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Galatians 3:22-23
That "faith which would be revealed" is the grace of God in the person of His Son and the sacrifice that He made upon our behalf. Scripture defines this as love, not as some universal forgiveness but:
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
The point I'm trying to make is that all humanity deserves judgment, but God's love is manifest in pouring out His judgment upon His Son for all who would believe Him.
Love (agape) is not simply emotion though it engages emotion, but choice and that of God to redeem His creation from sin leading to death.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Please refresh my memory Enoch.....I cannot recall a single verse where Jesus ever claimed that....Yahweh only ever referred to the Father....never once to the son. Please show us where it says that.
I have already posted Exodus chapter 3, so I will not post it again. But the pre-incarnate Christ appeared to Moses at the burning bush as "the Angel of the LORD (YHWH)" and said that His name was I AM THAT I AM or I AM. He also said that that was His personal name. He went on to say that He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Angel of the LORD had earlier appeared to Abraham when he was about to kill Isaac as a sacrifice. Once again He spoke as God Himself. And then when you turn to the New Testament Jesus said "Before Abraham was I AM". He also that that if you do not believe that He is "I AM" you will die in your sins.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Completely misinterpreted.....
”the angel of the Lord” was more than likely the pre-human Jesus, but an angel is not God. The angel spoke God’s words to Moses which is where his designation “Logos” comes from.
Speaking for Yahweh, the angel told Moses God’s name and it’s meaning.
Yahweh was not saying that he merely existed because his people already knew that he existed.
As to the meaning as his name.....the Jewish Tanakh gives an alternate rendering of the meaning.....Not “I AM” but “I Will Be”. His name was not a declaration about his existence, but about his intentions towards his nation. He would “Be” or “Become” whatever he needed to be, in order to accomplish his purpose in connection with them......as promised to Abraham, He would use this chosen nation to produce his Messiah.
When Jesus spoke to the Jews in John Ch 8.....
“He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning. 26 I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.” They did not understand that he had been speaking to them about the Father. So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. 29 And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him.” (ESV)
This is not God talking about himself.....this is Jesus talking about being the one “sent” by his God and Father. “I am he” is Jesus identifying himself as Messiah.
Exodus 3:15 has no connection with John 8:58 except in the minds of trinitarians.
you can't be serious.....let me get that for you from the Jewish Tanakh.....
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:"
Who was the only Lord God that Israel knew.....how many was their Lord God יְהֹוָ֥ה...one or three?
Pathetic attempt...sorry. Try again....
You need either God or Jesus admitting to be a three in one "godhead" along with the holy spirit......OK....?
You have completely ignored what I have written in the article on Deut 6:4, and pretend to quote Hebrew, which it is clear that you don't understand! Jesus Christ Speaks as YAHWEH in the passages in Zechariah and Isaiah; and the Holy Spirit Speaks as YAHWEH in 2 Samuel. Now use your Hebrew to try and disprove this!
The elect were found justified in the age before this one .They were chosen to do God's will after the rebellion of satan , the reason why man had to be made flesh .
It's like they don't have freewill , as they have been judged already
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