Why do they hate being called Christians

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epostle1

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With Left Behind (Nicolas Cage) movie, it’s time to revisit the question, “Do Catholics believe in the rapture?”

The short answer is “yes,” with conditions. The long answer is that we don’t believe in the rapture in the sense that many evangelicals, fundamentalists, and the popular culture imagine it — where the redeemed are carried into Heaven in the blink of an eye at some point prior to Christ’s second coming.

The word “rapture” comes from the Latin word rapiemur, “to be raised up.” Paul writes, “For the Lord himself … will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (1 Thess 4:16-17).

However, rapture as envisioned by the authors of the Left Behind books, is part of an apocalyptic belief system known as dispensational premillennialism. Carl Olson, author of Will Catholics Be Left Behind?, writes that this erroneous belief “teaches that the rapture and the second coming of Christ are two distinct events separated by a time of tribulation and a 1,000-year reign of Christ.”

Believers in this false teaching expect that Christians (not including Catholics) will vanish to meet Christ before his second coming. Unbelievers will be left behind to suffer during a time of tribulation, and then Christ will return a third time to conquer the Antichrist. Catholicism rejects such an interpretation of scripture.

Catholics believe that Christians living during Christ’s second coming will be gathered along with those who have died in Christ to be with him forever. However, Catholics do not believe that a rapture will take place prior to that time. This belief is a form of millennialism, which the Church strongly condemns.

The Catholic Church is “amillennial,” meaning that it believes that Christ’s second coming and the last judgment will happen at the same time. According to Colin Donovan, theologian at EWTN, the Church “teaches that Christ already reigns in eternity (1 Cor 15:24-27) and that in this world his reign … is found already in the Church.”

Therefore, we believe “He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead.” Our belief is that the rapture will take place at the end of the world, and not until then.
 

Heb 13:8

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The Rapture was never thought of before 1830. What John Darby did was squeeze the rapture doctrine out of a few passages with his own private interpretation which you take as "biblical". Then came the post-trib rapture. The rapturites became divided.
History and Development of Rapture Theories

That's actually not true. Paul and John both teach rapture.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away.

Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea, Acts 8:39 and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven, 2 Cor 12:2-4. Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.
 

bbyrd009

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where that will ultimately fail is in one's perspective of heaven, which must be revealed as a place, when there is no place called heaven. "The heavens" are a place, but "heaven" is not.

So then Phillip's and Paul's (and others') experiences will then be presented as supernatural or paranormal experiences, rather than some more likely explanation, even though if you heard some story of a believer being "transported" in this manner today, you would just laugh and change the channel.

Heaven is for Real, surely, but note that the kid grew up and recanted his story, which i don't know how you could get past about page 3 anyway.
 
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epostle1

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That's actually not true. Paul and John both teach rapture.

The Greek word from this term “rapture” is derived appears in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5, translated “caught up.” The Latin translation of this verse used the word rapturo. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away.

Elsewhere it is used to describe how the Spirit caught up Philip near Gaza and brought him to Caesarea, Acts 8:39 and to describe Paul’s experience of being caught up into the third heaven, 2 Cor 12:2-4. Thus there can be no doubt that the word is used in 1 Thess 4:17, Rev 12:5 to indicate the actual removal of people from earth to heaven.
Paul and John did not teach novel 100 year old rapture theories, which there is no sign of anyone teaching it for 1800 years. History is your enemy.

"...Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).
 
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Heb 13:8

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This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

Man confuses the timeline, not God. Confusion in the timeline doesn't erase the word harpazo from scripture. Not believing in a rapture is deception. The Lord tells us to wake up! Rev 3:3. I do however believe it is too late for some to wake up. I truly believe that.
 
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This thread started out discussing the term Christian and has gotten way off topic: let's try and bring it back. The term Christ/Messiah is a reference to Jesus as King and his followers are his subjects, are most people who claim to be Christians Christ's followers? I don't believe so and so I think the author of this thread is making a valid argument that there is a very serious problem with the Christian faith today.
 

mjrhealth

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valid argument that there is a very serious problem with the Christian faith today.
Yep.

Some call them selves Jws
some call them selves Mormans
Some calll them selves Greek orthodox
Some call teh selves catholics
Soem roman catholics

and so on add infinitum- Man I spelled it woo hoo

Is Chrust Divided?? No! But man is by his religions and doctrines.
 

BreadOfLife

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I would disagree. Are you placing your confidence in religion or Jesus Christ, to which He saved you to the uttermost? Read 1 John 5:9-14.

2 Cor 1:21:22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

2 Cor 5:5 Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

2 Tim 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
And ALL of the following passages speak to the possibility of LOSING our salvation if we do not remain faithful:

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory - even to a blind person . . .

Matt. 7:21
Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’."
This one is also self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
 

Heb 13:8

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And ALL of the following passages speak to the possibility of LOSING our salvation if we do not remain faithful:

Or maybe you're looking at the Gospel through works and not belief. Check out the word agape below. :rolleyes:

Rom 5:5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love (agape) has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love (agape) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Cor 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love (agape) of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Col 1:3-8 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love (agape) you have for all God’s people— 5the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace. 7You learned it from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, 8and who also told us of your love (agape) in the Spirit.

For I am convinced that neither

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger
sword?
death nor life
neither angels nor demons
neither the present nor the future
nor any powers
neither height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate us from the love (agape) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

BreadOfLife

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Or maybe you're looking at the Gospel through works and not belief. Check out the word agape below. :rolleyes:

Rom 5:5 And hope does not put us to shame, because God's love (agape) has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us.

Rom 8:33-39 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love (agape) of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written: “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” 37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love (agape) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Cor 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love (agape) of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Col 1:3-8 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love (agape) you have for all God’s people— 5the faith and love that spring from the hope stored up for you in heaven and about which you have already heard in the true message of the gospel 6that has come to you. In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world—just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood God’s grace. 7You learned it from Epaphras, our dear fellow servant, who is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, 8and who also told us of your love (agape) in the Spirit.

For I am convinced that neither

trouble
hardship
persecution
famine
nakedness
danger
sword?
death nor life
neither angels nor demons
neither the present nor the future
nor any powers
neither height nor depth
nor anything else in all creation

will be able to separate us from the love (agape) of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And the Scriptures are correct:
NOTHING
or NOBODY can separate us from the love of God - except ourselves . . .
Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19



 

Heb 13:8

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And the Scriptures are correct:
NOTHING
or NOBODY can separate us from the love of God - except ourselves . . .
Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19

:rolleyes:
 

Heb 13:8

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Can't argue with the Word of God . . .

No you can't, lol. Neither death nor life can separate the believer, and sin brings death. And neither the present nor the future can separate the believer proving Jesus died for future sins.
 

BreadOfLife

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No you can't, lol. Neither death nor life can separate the believer, and sin brings death. And neither the present nor the future can separate the believer proving Jesus died for future sins.
And, as I have proven with Scripture - NOBODY can separate us from God - except for ourselves . . .
Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19
 

Heb 13:8

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And, as I have proven with Scripture - NOBODY can separate us from God - except for ourselves . . .
Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet.r 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19

You're taking all these scriptures out of context because you preach a false doctrine of works salvation.
 

BreadOfLife

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You're taking all these scriptures out of context because you preach a false doctrine of works salvation.
Really?
Show me HOW I'm taking them out of context.

Anyway - I don't preach a doctrine of "works" salvation and neither does the Church.