Why do we need priests?

[Giuliano]

Hi Giuliano,

No, dead people were not teaching Timothy.

The passage I referenced states "entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."

That means that Paul taught Timothy what was taught to him by the Apostles and Jesus. Paul then told Timothy to teach "reliable people" what he taught Timothy. Those "reliable people" were then to teach others. This is known our Christian community as Apostolic Succession and it is spoken about in the earliest writings of our Christian Fathers.

All those faithful men are dead. According to your theory, since they are now dead, we can not trust the teachings of those faithful men.

That's a relief. All that talk about dead people teaching seemed odd.

How reliable is this idea of apostolic succession? How do heretical bishops get explained? How can bishops get excommunicated?

Sooooo whose teachings do you trust sir?

Trust? Almost anyone without guile or vanity. Why not learn from everyone I can?

Why do you do "bad things"?

Why do you imagine such things?

 

[Marymog]

That's a relief. All that talk about dead people teaching seemed odd.

How reliable is this idea of apostolic succession? How do heretical bishops get explained? How can bishops get excommunicated?

Lol....I see what you mean. We can learn from dead people thru their writings. To suggest that we can't means we should throw out all dead peoples writings.

Apostolic Succession in Scripture: Acts 1:21-26 which is the clearest example of this.

Jesus said to his Apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me.” So, using common sense and logic, when the Apostles promoted others into their fold as Church leaders, which they did with Mathias, if the teachings of Mathias was rejected then they rejected the teachings of the Apostles which is the same as rejecting the teaching of Christ.

Jesus also told the Apostles that whatever they bind on earth will be bound in heaven. All the successors to the Apostles, such as Mathias, would have the same authority.

In Luke 22:29 Jesus conferred the kingdom onto the Apostles just as the Father had conferred it to the Son. Succession from God to Jesus to the Apostles.

John 16:14-15 He will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

John 17:18; 20:21 As the Father has sent me, so I send you.

Paul taught, "entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."

Apostolic Succession is also in the earliest Christian writings from the Apostolic and ECF's.

Who has the authority to declare anyone, let alone a bishop, as heretical?

Bible study Mary

 

[Marymog]

Trust? Almost anyone without guile or vanity. Why not learn from everyone I can?

The criteria of guile and vanity is subjective.

I trust the writings of the Apostolic and ECF's. Men who walked and talked with the Apostles and students of the Apostles. You trust anyone without guile or vanity. Do you think you can trust any writings from Joseph Smith? Calvin? Luther? They all said different things about Scripture soooo how can we trust soooo many different writings as truth?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Have the Catholic bishops been faithful men, or have they conspired (over centuries) with priests and prelates to hide the sins being committed by the Catholic clergy? And have those who have spoken out also walked away from this travesty of Christianity?

Apostolic succession within the RCC is a total myth. The apostles woul never tolerate the false teachings of the RCC.

No, some have not been faithful men. Martin Luther would be a good example. Are you faithful to the teachings of the Apostles?

The sins of men do not dictate the doctrine of the Church.

If "Apostolic succession within the RCC is a total myth" then which Church does contain that succession of which is spoken of in Scripture?

 

[amadeus]

No, I wouldn't say that. Waiting on Him first brought up the subject of apologetics, Marymog defined it, I embellished her definition. There is no need to muddy the waters.

Thank you! I also see no reason to
"muddy" the waters.

 

[Giuliano]

The criteria of guile and vanity is subjective.

Oh?

I trust the writings of the Apostolic and ECF's. Men who walked and talked with the Apostles and students of the Apostles. You trust anyone without guile or vanity. Do you think you can trust any writings from Joseph Smith? Calvin? Luther? They all said different things about Scripture soooo how can we trust soooo many different writings as truth?

Mary

I would not trust anything written by those three men.

 

[Giuliano]

Lol....I see what you mean. We can learn from dead people thru their writings. To suggest that we can't means we should throw out all dead peoples writings.

Apostolic Succession in Scripture: Acts 1:21-26 which is the clearest example of this.

Jesus said to his Apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me.” So, using common sense and logic, when the Apostles promoted others into their fold as Church leaders, which they did with Mathias, if the teachings of Mathias was rejected then they rejected the teachings of the Apostles which is the same as rejecting the teaching of Christ.

Jesus also told the Apostles that whatever they bind on earth will be bound in heaven. All the successors to the Apostles, such as Mathias, would have the same authority.

In Luke 22:29 Jesus conferred the kingdom onto the Apostles just as the Father had conferred it to the Son. Succession from God to Jesus to the Apostles.

John 16:14-15 He will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

John 17:18; 20:21 As the Father has sent me, so I send you.

Paul taught, "entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."Apostolic Succession is also in the earliest Christian writings from the Apostolic and ECF's.

You gave examples of Jesus' relationship with the Apostles. You are assuming they could pass it on. Maybe in some cases they could, in other cases no.

Who has the authority to declare anyone, let alone a bishop, as heretical?

Bible study Mary

Other bishops say they have it.

 

[Marymog]

I would not trust anything written by those three men.

Soooo you can tell me who you don't trust.....can you tell me whom you do trust?

Patient Mary

 

[Marymog]

You gave examples of Jesus' relationship with the Apostles. You are assuming they could pass it on. Maybe in some cases they could, in other cases no.

Your kidding??? right??

 

[epostle]

“The Church expressly distinguishes between ‘formal’ and ‘material’ heretics. A ‘formal’ heretic rejects the Church and its teaching absolutely and with full deliberation; a ‘material’ heretic rejects the Church from lack of knowledge, being influenced by false prejudice or by an anti-Catholic upbringing. St. Augustine forbids us to blame a man for being a heretic because he was born of heretical parents, provided that he does not with obstinate self-assurance shut out all better knowledge, but seeks the truth simply and loyally. Whenever the Church has such honest enquirers before her, she remembers that our Lord condemned Pharisaism but not the individual Pharisee, that He held deep and loving intercourse with Nicodemus, and allowed Himself to be invited by Simon. The spirit of the Church in her dealings with souls may be stated in St. Augustine’s words: ‘Love men, slay error!’”
Irish, Catholic, and Dangerous: The Difference Between Formal And Material Heresy

 

[Giuliano]

Soooo you can tell me who you don't trust.....can you tell me whom you do trust?

Patient Mary

"What is that to thee?"

Your kidding??? right??

No, I'm not kidding. How do "heretical" bishops pop up?

 

[Philip James]

No, I'm not kidding. How do "heretical" bishops pop up?

Hello Giuliano,

The same way all heretics pop up:
They start thinking their understanding is superior to the understanding of the Church.

Peace be with you!

 

[Giuliano]

Hello Giuliano,

The same way all heretics pop up:
They start thinking their understanding is superior to the understanding of the Church.

Peace be with you!

God is not leading all successors to the Apostles into all truth? Did the ordination go wrong somehow? I think you'd answer no to that; so something else went wrong. Another question would be who picked vain men to be bishops?

 

[Philip James]

God is not leading all successors to the Apostles into all truth?

I guess that depends on whether or not one is listening.
The Holy Spririt guides the Church, as a whole, into all Truth (for we have the mind of Christ), every individual is not necessarily listening...

Did the ordination go wrong somehow?

Ordination is not a guaruntee of perfection.

Another question would be who picked vain men to be bishops?

There's a reason Paul warned Timothy to be careful who he laid hands on..

Peace!

 

[Giuliano]

I guess that depends on whether or not one is listening.
The Holy Spririt guides the Church, as a whole, into all Truth (for we have the mind of Christ), every individual is not necessarily listening...

Ordination is not a guaruntee of perfection.



There's a reason Paul warned Timothy to be careful who he laid hands on..

Peace!

This calls the validity of some ordinations into some question. I am very suspicious of men who were ordained as bishops in the Catholic Church and who, for some reason or another, leave and then say they can carry on "Apostolic succession" on their own. I also wonder if there are concealed enemies within who have not yet been exposed for what they are -- and I wonder about the people they ordain.

 

[Philip James]

This calls the validity of some ordinations into some question. I am very suspicious of men who were ordained as bishops in the Catholic Church and who, for some reason or another, leave and then say they can carry on "Apostolic succession" on their own. I also wonder if there are concealed enemies within who have not yet been exposed for what they are -- and I wonder about the people they ordain.

What is that to you and me? Should I abandon my Lord and my brothers and sisters because some may abuse their office? Shall I take upon myself the authority of a presbyter?

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail... the Holy Spirit will take care of it, as He always does...

Peace!

 

[Giuliano]

What is that to you and me? Should I abandon my Lord and my brothers and sisters because some may abuse their office? Shall I take upon myself the authority of a presbyter?

Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail... the Holy Spirit will take care of it, as He always does...

Peace!

I come back to what is the difference between the Heavenly Church and the earthly manifestation.

 

[Philip James]

I come back to what is the difference between the Heavenly Church and the earthly manifestation.

Is there a difference?

 

[epostle]

If the president of the United States gets impeached, it does not mean the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are wrong, it means that president failed in his duties as president. Similarly, if a bishop goes bad, it does not prove the doctrine of ordination is wrong, it means that particular bishop failed in his duties as bishop. Similarly, if a "marriage" goes bad, that does not prove the sacrament of matrimony is wrong. The attempt to disprove the validity of ordination because there have been bad bishops is just stupid reasoning.

Arius, Nestorius, Apollinarus, and every heretic in the patristic period thumbed their noses at the authority of the Church, and went by scripture alone. They did not disprove the office of bishop, they disproved themselves.

 

[ScottA]

I come back to what is the difference between the Heavenly Church and the earthly manifestation.

Is there a difference?

What is manifest in the world is both the good and the evil, unto judgement.

The heavenly church is not of the world, although some are alive and remain in the world. Such are those who reign with Christ. But those evil among the church in the world are as tares among the wheat, wolves in sheep's clothing.