Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?
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Looking for something to criticize? LOL
It is something about this forum. What denominations would you think have such fervent beliefs against being good and doing good. It is sad. Christians against good! Is that a motto that I have not heard of? I have been all over Europe, some in the Middle East, and the United States...up and down the eastern seaboard and I have never ran into Christians that were so opposed to being good and doing good. You mention being good and doing good on this forum and you are very likely to get a derogatory response.
I am multi-denominational
I fellowship with the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Pentecosts, the Catholics, the Glad Tidings Assembly of God, the Mormons, the Moravian Church and nearly a dozen non-denominational churches and I have had Jewish friends from the time I was a kid.
FHII
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Ok. You read some of Augustine. I take it you haven't read Calvin. That's fine. And your advice that we should stick to the Bible is fine. I somewhat agree. I say "somewhat" because the Bible does say we need a preacher. So yes, stick to the Bible, but don't ignore it at the same time.
I am hoping that you understand that you cannot rely on Church internet gossip on what folks like Calvin, Augustine or others said. Much of the time, its very misguided and only exposed when you actually read what they said.
I would love to do an expose on Calvin on this page. In fact, I did so several years ago. There is just so much misinformation about him because folks google his name and go on very biased reports. But they haven't read what he said... Even though they have spent $40,000 on their library!
I'd do another expose, but I haven't studied his works in over 5 years. I remember key points, but can't give references like I used to.
Bottom line is that people talk trash about Calvin, but they don't know him. Frankly, I admire him for some things (for one, he knew scripture and could run rings around us, even though we have the internet and he didn't) but I dislike him for other reasons (the Servatus incident).
But anyway... Why bother? Folks have their opinion on Calvin and they are happy with it. They Don't seem like they want to change it either.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
No, not like you critized the fragmented and unified 30k Protestant denominations!
I am a Protestant who considers ALL believers in Christ as brothers and sisters in the BODY.
There it is again, going off on a tangent, jumping to conclusions, assuming and you are wrong.
So it sounds like you are a non-committal Christian, one that drifts from one church to another, never really finding a home, never being satisfied, not sticking around long enough to grow roots ?
I guess the real test is which church considers you a solid long standing member?
That is fine, I just consider myself a Christian and currently do not identify myself with a particular denomination .
I started in a non-denominational church and then sunk my roots into Four Square church for a solid dozen years. After that, I drifted and wasn't locked into any particular church. I would visit many other churches: Chuck Smiths Calvary Chapel, John MacArthur's Grace Community, even back in the 90's, Hal Lindsey's Tetelestai. So I to drifted a bit. I miss my Pastor Zac Nazzarian, the only one whom I consider knows me -- even though it was a mega-church of 3000 members.
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Trash about Calvin. LOL
His life's story....
His character.....
The beliefs he wrote about....
How the denominations that are linked to His name have changed over the years...
The differing sects of this belief system.....
And basically where it all stands today, which is really the most relevant.
Varying degrees of a puppet show? To complete and totality that every human action is controlled by God. Every thought, every word, every actions setup as a script before the time of creation....down to predetermined snowflakes. Matthew 12:36 I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to account for every careless word God forces them to speak. Does it really say that or do you think it should?
We can go into the varying aspects of predestination and double predestination.
No sect of Calvinism believes in free will....true or false.
God chooses who will be saved or damned....when?
After God choose can a person change that determination?
Church of Calvinism....ever see that on a sign outside a church?
Because they want to disguise the name of their intentions.
You see this a lot with Calvinism...it is more of a way of flushing them out.
They have real issues with being good and doing good and....women!
Being good is of no credit to you because God forced you....
Doing good is of no credit to you because God forced you....
Faith is of no credit to you because God forced you....
Grace is irrelevant because if it is all under God's control it is all up to Him.
Alternatively
Not believing in Christ is not your fault...God forced you.
Raping women is not your fault...God forced you.
Murdering is not your fault...God forced you.
Adultery is not your fault...God forced you.
Idolatry is not your fault...God forced you.
Abusing drugs is not your fault...God forced you.
You can have fun with this but if you try to call predestination...clairvoyance. I will call you on it.
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It is something about this forum. What denominations would you think have such fervent beliefs against being good and doing good. It is sad. Christians against good! Is that a motto that I have not heard of? I have been all over Europe, some in the Middle East, and the United States...up and down the eastern seaboard and I have never ran into Christians that were so opposed to being good and doing good. You mention being good and doing good on this forum and you are very likely to get a derogatory response.
There it is again, going off on a tangent, jumping to conclusions, assuming and you are wrong.
What I said was in response to what you said and your general attitude. Do you want me to copy everything you said...here.
No drifting....I just attend more than more than one church....and as a world traveler that kind of goes with the territory. I am in good company....kind of what the Apostles did.
I am popular and a lot of the people have known me for years....I am a member of none.....there approval of me I checked the other day and the approval meter on their forehead said great approval.
There it is again, going off on a tangent, jumping to conclusions, assuming and you are wrong.
What I said was in response to what you said and your general attitude. Do you want me to copy everything you said...here.
No drifting....I just attend more than more than one church....and as a world traveler that kind of goes with the territory. I am in good company....kind of what the Apostles did.
I am popular and a lot of the people have known me for years....I am a member of none.....there approval of me I checked the other day and the approval meter on their forehead said great approval.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Wow, I guess both of us pushed the wrong buttons? It seems there is a deep hatred for Calvinism and well I guess I turned this into an interrogation or sorts... and they both brought out your dark side ... thought it was easy to be good?
It's okay, all the people around you have their approval meters shining bright strapped onto their foreheads.
...with big smiles on their faces.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Listen, I am not a Calvinist, but predestination is a key theological doctrine.
We are chosen, elected to be conformed to Christ, saved, NOT predestined to do everything. He gives us talents, intelligence, but it is up to us if we want to play guitar of clarinet, or to study, do well in school, go to college, marry a particular person. Hey, I would habe preferred Him to make all my decisions, I made a lot of bad ones.
It is the significant decisions that are ordained and so the onesnrhat lead you to Christ. And oh, He will also keep you alive if you are written in that Book of Life, so you will make it to that divine appointment.
He has a plan and we can't screw it up. Aren't you glad. Salvation is a supernatural spiritual thing that we cannot jumpstart. We can't remove our sins and since we are coming from a natural tendency to oppose God, He has to enable us to see. He lifts that spiritual blindness - we can't. Once we can see, He persuades us through a series of events and people who come into our lives and invite us to church or give us a tract, or a missionary knocks on our door, or we flip on the TV station and hear a sermon.
Whatever significant actions, events, people that conteibutes to your salvation is predestined. But you can eay bacon and eggs tomierow morning lazagna. You can wear pink socks, exercise or be lazy and become obese. Free will is over-rated, just look at how people choose to live and what bad xhouces they make.. If God was responsible for everything, life would move along perfectly. No He wants us to be responsible, learn good and evil, so that we can choose good from evil. And that is what obedience is, choosing to do the right thing.
Free? Yeah, we are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan. If we were really free, there could be no judgment, no death or penalty. When we died, we could just float away to wherever we chose, without boundaries. That would be free will.
The wages of sin is death and we were born into it -oops, already guilty, judgment hanging over our heads ... How does free will get free from that?
Wrong concept, a misunderstanding.
It's based on His foreknowledge and don't try to figure that out, it is beyond our ability to conceive. You would have to be omnicient, omnipresent and understand the mechanics of the multi-dimentional spiritual realm outside of our time domain.
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Fellowship with the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Pentecosts, the Catholics, the Glad Tidings Assembly of God, the Mormons, the Moravian Church and nearly a dozen non-denominational churches?
Fellowship
synonyms
association, board, brotherhood, chamber, club, college, congress, consortium, council, fraternity, guild(also gild), institute, institution, league, order, organization, society, sodality
Being good and doing good. What can one say anything bad against that? Even non Christians, even atheists I think, would not say anything bad or wrong against that, I would believe. Though what is good and being good may be defined differently by these different groups of people. Nonetheless what is good and being good have something in common I think to them. It is in the context of self interest more than it is supposed to be in the context of the nature of God, the true God that is.
Tong
R4316
Telling the truth is always good. But as Paul found out, sometimes it can getcha in trouble.
Now I can give you some advise. What is it in our nature that causes us to sin? Now the Jews don't believe in a devil, they do not believe that the devil tempts them....they agree with the sinful nature concept. But what of that causes sin? Well 99% of sin is caused by want...hate...fear...laziness, and cowardice. And of all the sins, the most heinous of sins is driven by hate. Of all the sins hate is the button that Satan uses to influence. Crucify Him! Crucify Him! Let His blood be on us and our children! If you look at the history of the Jews you will see they paid for that dearly. They do not believe in punishment in the afterlife, they believe in punishment in this life....and boy they got it. So what I am going to tell you is....do not hate. Do not let it in your life. So I can say I never hate. You can take that advise or leave it.
As a student of Christianity and history I can tell you that Calvinism is just one of many heresies in history. I do not hate them. Calvinism portrays God as a monstrous puppet that turns all of reality into a play. But it is not unique in that sort of thing. Have you ever heard of the Great Spaghetti monster god? You have the Jehovah's Witnesses that deny the deity of Christ. Strangely enough southern Voodoo has strong connections to Christianity as with New Age religions that combine Christianity with forms of witchcraft. You have the Heaven's Gate type religions that mix Christianity with the Sci-Fi stuff...Flying Saucers. Then you have the New Denominations that condone drug use, LGBTQ lifestyles and abortion. You have Christian religion that mix Christianity with Judaism and because they could marry their daughters off before puberty...they condone sex and marriage with minors.
As a person that is educated I know they are heresies, but I do not hate them. In fact I have friends that are Calvinists...on the other hand I have helped interventionists and law enforcement to save wives and children from them.
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Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
PREDESTINATION
Isaiah 45:12-13
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Romans 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Romans 8:28, 29
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.
* "evil" in ither translations: disaster, calamity, troubles
This does not mean He causes us to sin
But chasting, punishments, judgment, tribulations are part of His plan. I'm sure you don't think the ten plagues sent to Pharoah and Egypt were blessings?
Isaiah 45:12-13
I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. I have raised him up in righteousness, and I will direct all his ways: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.
John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Romans 9:15-16
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will
Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Romans 8:28, 29
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the Lord do all these things.
* "evil" in ither translations: disaster, calamity, troubles
This does not mean He causes us to sin
But chasting, punishments, judgment, tribulations are part of His plan. I'm sure you don't think the ten plagues sent to Pharoah and Egypt were blessings?
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Like I said there are varying degrees of Predestinationists. There are main stream denominations...that have a general belief in Predestination. God's ability to predestinate is documented in the Bible. So is His ability to impregnate a woman....but He is not going to impregnate all of them. It is not that God has the power to predestinate that is the issue, it is the over exaggeration of that doctrine that leads to heresies. I have done long essays on this and if you want some I can give you some. I find some humor in these beliefs for several reasons...if nothing else it would be boring for God...all of reality nothing more that a choregraphed dance. What would worship mean to Him if it is a robotic program? It is blasphemous for sure....but beyond that it just does not make any sense...and to what end? To make someone feel like they are the "elect"
Everybody wants to be special. LOL But history will prove that this drive to put yourself in the special category makes up the worst of people. It all depends on how much predestination defines the doctrines of your beliefs.......the more the worst.
Context of nature of God....that is so funny!
It does not matter what denomination it is, you should reference the Bible about what is good and what good we should do. It is so simple....this supposed confusion seems somewhere between odd and dishonest. Christ said His yoke is easy and His burden is light. And no matter what....as shocking as it may seem....He was telling the truth. It is not hard to be good and it is not hard to do good. And it should not be a surprise that that is what He expects of us. People suggest that it is somehow wrong to obey Christ. Self centered to obey Christ. Self edifying to obey Christ. Be honest, were would such a message come from? They do not get this from the scriptures. There is nothing in the scriptures about sin and sin some more and Christ promises evildoers with heaven.
Why do you feel it is so hard to be good?
Those who have the Spirit of God should not find it hard to do good and be good. Though some does. And the body of death that they are still in may well be a big factor to that, not to mention, they are living in a corrupted world and where the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, thrives and is out to kill and destroy humankind, that constantly influence them.
On the other hand, those who have NOT the Holy Spirit of God, by nature, find it hard, if not impossible altogether, to do good and be good. In fact, doing good and being good is not in their vocabulary nor it is in their menu, so to speak. In that sense, the question seems to not even be valid with respect to them. But for the sake of argument, even while we apply it, they will find it really really hard to do and be good, simply because they do have sufficient power to do so. They need the Holy Spirit of God.
Tong
R4317
Those who have the Spirit of God should not find it hard to do good and be good. Though some does. And the body of death that they are still in may well be a big factor to that, not to mention, they are living in a corrupted world and where the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, thrives and is out to kill and destroy humankind, that constantly influence them.
On the other hand, those who have NOT the Holy Spirit of God, by nature, find it hard, if not impossible altogether, to do good and be good. In fact, doing good and being good is not in their vocabulary nor it is in their menu, so to speak. In that sense, the question seems to not even be valid with respect to them. But for the sake of argument, even while we apply it, they will find it really really hard to do and be good, simply because they do have sufficient power to do so. They need the Holy Spirit of God.
Tong
R4317
Funny, obviously it is for you. But Not for me.
<<<It does not matter what denomination it is, you should reference the Bible about what is good and what good we should do.>>>
Of course we should reference the Bible, that is, concerning the Bible believing Christians. But not those who have other books other than the Bible or in addition to it. Besides, concerning the true and legitimate children of God, they have the Holy Spirit in them and the spiritual gifts such as of divine love. And that makes a lot of difference in their discernment of what is good and being good. That is one aspect of their sanctification as children of God.
<<<this supposed confusion seems somewhere between odd and dishonest.>>>
Not at all. But to the contrary.
<<<People suggest that it is somehow wrong to obey Christ. Self centered to obey Christ. Self edifying to obey Christ.>>>
Who are these people? Are they in Christ? Do they have the Holy Spirit?
<<<Be honest, were would such a message come from?>>>
Am I not been honest to you? Why do you seem to imply by your question that I am not being honest? Do you take me as honest if I agree with what you say and as dishonest of I don’t?
In answer, if there are people who says that it is wrong to obey Christ, One thing is sure, such a message is not coming from God.
Tong
R4318
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
It means no longer being under the condemnation of the law.
It means no longer being under the power of the law to hold you in bondage to sin.
It means no longer being under obligation to the literal Festival and Sabbath cycle.
It means no longer having only the written word of the law to lead you into righteous living.
There is always the but, for those that do not want to obey Christ. The Holy Spirit in them....there is no test or gauge for that. All we know is that the Holy Spirit is not going to tell people that it is ok to do drugs or to be LGBTQ or murder babies. Ways of getting around being good and doing good.
No, it is in context with what I said....this supposed confusion seems somewhere between odd and dishonest. Christ said His yoke is easy and His burden is light. And no matter what....as shocking as it may seem....He was telling the truth. It is not hard to be good and it is not hard to do good. And it should not be a surprise that that is what He expects of us. People suggest that it is somehow wrong to obey Christ. Self centered to obey Christ. Self edifying to obey Christ. AND THEN...Be honest, were would such a message come from? They do not get this from the scriptures. There is nothing in the scriptures about sin and sin some more and Christ promises evildoers with heaven.
The honesty....there can be no argument....The Bible....Christianity is not about tolerating or rewarding sin and evildoers. Heaven is not the reward for sin and evildoers. Be good and do good. For the true believers in Christ....that is the best message and is totally in agreement with the scriptures.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Okay, I find it also absurd that TULIP pits God and salvation in a nice neat box. Personally,,I can argue against most points in TULIP, still predestination is ordained. Before the prophets were born God knew them. He had a plan for their lives - otherwise prophecy could never be fulfilled. Think about it, He designed exactly how the events of sow ific people within the bloodline of a chosen nation that led up to Jesus being born (40 generations), then,his life and ministry fulfilling 300 prophet is perfectly exactly how it was written, chose the disciples before they were born oncludingbthe John the Baptist that would announce and prepare His ministry. The Bible has been preserved over many attempts to destroy it - but God protected it. Now we have prolhecy in Revelation that is about to happen and will with hair-splitting accuracy. To accomplish this many things need To happen, in order and precision and man is not organizing it, yet man is taking part in it as God ordains what good and what evil occurs in the lives of billions. Look at Rom. 13:1, He appoints all rulers/authorities on the planet for all time for His purpose.
We are not robots, actually God is more powerful than evil. Evil cannot control the events that God has ordained. God is sovereign and so maybe you don't grasp what sovereignty means?
There is a big difference between predestination and clairvoyance. The purpose and intent of each is very different. There is a big difference in God knowing the future and God making all of reality and orchestrated puppet show.
<<<It means no longer being under the condemnation of the law.>>>
We have that same understanding. How about no longer being under the governance of the law? How about no longer being bound by the Law?
And how about that part “under grace”?
<<<It means no longer being under the power of the law to hold you in bondage to sin.>>>
I do not share that same understanding. I don’t have the view of the law as power that hold us in bondage to sin.
<<<It means no longer being under obligation to the literal Festival and Sabbath cycle.>>>
I would agree to that.
<<<It means no longer having only the written word of the law to lead you into righteous living.>>>
Regarding the true and legitimate children of God, what do you know scriptures say that they should walk according to? Is it “according to the law” or “according to the Spirit” or does it say according to both?
So, I think you were right in saying that we have a different understanding as to what Paul says that the Christian is not under the Law. I will wait as to what is your understanding on the part “under grace”.
Tong
R4322
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