Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Robert Gwin]

I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible
30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a

Actually sir, a comment on your statement that only Yahweh is only immortal, I tend to agree with you, however the Bible indicates otherwise, I don't understand it, but anointed Christians who go to heaven are given immortality according to 1 Cor 15:50-54. The one recorded as having immortality alone was not speaking about Yahweh however, that was referring to Yeshua (Jesus). Obviously God cannot die, so I guess the term was never applied to Him. It can be discerned however by these verses:
(Psalm 90:1, 2) 90 O Jehovah, you have been our dwelling place throughout all generations. 2 Before the mountains were born Or you brought forth the earth and the productive land, From everlasting to everlasting, you are God.
(1 Timothy 1:17) 17 Now to the King of eternity, incorruptible, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

[Scott Downey]

John 5, as soon as a person God enables to hear the words of Christ and they believe in Christ, they have eternal life right then and there, they do not have to await the final judgement, they are passed from death into life. These dead are those who are dead in sins and trespasses, Ephesians 2, their bodies are alive, these have not died physically and yet are spiritually dead.
============================================

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

============================================
The coming resurrection of the righteous and the wicked, all are resurrected, though each in his own order.
============================================

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

=====================================
The order of resurrection
Christ is the first fruits,
Second all those who are Christ's at His second appearing.
then comes the end, the final judgement of the Great White Throne where those who are not Christs are resurrected.
Refer also to Revelation 20.
====================

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

 

[Keiw]

Wow, more heretics. Great, just what this forum needs…

Those teaching that unjust sadist God that would punish a nothing mortal for eternity does not know the true God-Deut 32:4--All of Gods ways are justice. He taught all perfect justice= an eye for an eye= perfect balance on Gods justice scales-uncorruptable.
Lets apply those scales to that lie taught about God-- on one side 70-100 years of an unrepented life--- on the other side- trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of punishment.---Do you see any balance? NO
Deuteronomy 30:19--God set before all LIFE or DEATH both will be everlasting. The symbolism of eternal suffering = As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those not allowed in miss each new day, miss each new day of Gods love, it never ends. Likened to be an eternal suffering. They traded 70-100 years of an unrepented sinful life and gave up--trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years in Gods kingdom--that is the symbolism.
Blind guides that do not know God teach a literal eternal suffering---RUN FROM THEM.

 

[Johann]

I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

Why not? A wandering mind, demanding an answer, can't concentrate past two liner posts?
J.

 

[Johann]

What Christianity needs is fewer judgmental losers like you! Hell is the grave. Always has been and always will be.

Not really.
J.

 

[Johann]

I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible
30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a

That is why you are quoting various modern translations, the uninspired translators not believing in an eternal place of torment.
Read Bunyan.
You'll ice.
J.

 

[Johann]

After a quick Internet search I found this - What Does Aionios Mean? Here's an extract from the page:

...which aligns with your worldview re the scriptures, bypassing the others, on the Internet, stressing that eternal is indeed eternal.
J.

 

[Johann]

Quote from Origen:

Stay away from Origin.
J.

 

[Johann]

I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible
30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a

...what happens to weeds in a......?
J.

 

[Johann]

The one recorded as having immortality alone was not speaking about Yahweh however, that was referring to Yeshua (Jesus).

As usual, JW's are incorrect.
J.

 

[Johann]

that is the symbolism.
Blind guides that do not know God teach a literal eternal suffering---RUN FROM THEM.

yeah, everyone else spiritualizing everything, Remez, Pardes, Sod etc.
J.

 

[Robert Gwin]

As usual, JW's are incorrect.
J.

We are not the only ones who believe that verse applies to Jesus Joe, but I am rather shocked that most sources I looked at believe it applies to God. Common sense would apply it to God as well, because He has always existed, and will always exist. Jesus however was given immortality, and what is more the 144 k is also referred to as immortal. I will be the first to admit that I do not understand it, I do believe however that verse is speaking about Jesus, but confused as to why he is referred to as being the only one to have immortality? Almost seems like a contradiction.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible
16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible
14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible
30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a

I believe the Bible teaches that both wicked humans and fallen angels will be erased from existence in the Lake of Fire. I provided biblical proof in my write up here.

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

Introduction: I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality,” and not “Traditional Conditional Immortality.” I used to believe in “Eternal Torment” (i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment) and even defended it at one time, but I have come to find this belief to be both unbiblical and immoral. I...

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[keithr]

Jesus however was given immortality, and what is more the 144 k is also referred to as immortal.

I think you are mistaken. There are only two references to the 144,000. In both case they are on the earth, and neither of them mentions them as being immortal.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I think you are mistaken. There are only two references to the 144,000. In both case they are on the earth, and neither of them mentions them as being immortal.

There are many references to them Keith, perhaps you do not recognize the verses are speaking of them however. They are called many things, but the passage Paul gave in: (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) . . .Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.

Pauls letter to the Corinth congregation was written to those of the 144k Keith chap 1:2. The term saints and sanctified in Christ are referring to those of the covenant sir.

 

[keithr]

There are many references to them Keith, perhaps you do not recognize the verses are speaking of them however. They are called many things, but the passage Paul gave in: (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) . . .Look! I tell you a sacred secret: We will not all fall asleep in death, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the blink of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we will be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.

Pauls letter to the Corinth congregation was written to those of the 144k Keith chap 1:2. The term saints and sanctified in Christ are referring to those of the covenant sir.

Paul's letter was written specifically to the church congregation in Corinth, but it was also written to all Christians, to everyone who has Jesus as their Lord - 1 Corinthians 1:2 (WEB):

(2) to the assembly of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours:​

The verses in chapter 15 are again concerning all Christians - all that have already died and all those still alive when Jesus returns for the Church:

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​

(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

(53) For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

There is no limitation to 144,000 in this passage. That only occurs in Revelation chapters 7 and 14. The Book of Revelation is all about future events - the first verse says:

(1) This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon, ...​

After the letters to the seven churches, which are also prophetic of the church thoughout the Gospel Age, in chapter 4 it continues with events after the Gospel Age (verse 1 says "After these things"). It describes the throne room in heaven, where the resurrected Church is represented by the 24 elders - they are sitting on thrones "dressed in white garments, with crowns of gold on their heads" (Rev. 4:4), and "They sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation, and made us kings and priests to our God, and we will reign on the earth.” (Rev 5:9-10). The resurected Church then witness Jesus unsealing the scroll, and the resulting tribulation coming upon those still living on the Earth (chapter 6).

It is then in chapter 7 that it first tells of the 144,000. Again verse one starts with "After this", after the 7 seals have been opened, witnesssed by the resurrected Church in heaven, that 144,000 Israelites living on the Earth are sealed.

(3) saying, Do not hurt the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.​

They are not sons of God (the Church), they are servants of God, and they are all Jewish:

(4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:​

The 144,000 are only mentioned once more, in chapter 14. They are still on the Earth, in Jerusalem, on Mount Zion, and they are all men:

(1) I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.​

(2) I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.​

(3) They sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand, those who had been redeemed out of the earth.​

(4) These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.​

They are obedient to Jesus, and are his representatives on the Earth. They have not been changed to be immortal spirit beings like the Church has.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
• Matt 16:18 . . I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail
against it.

The Greek word translated "hell" is haides (a.k.a. hades) which is a
mythological afterlife facility for detaining all the dead regardless of age,
race, gender, and/or religious preference.

The Greek word translated "gates" always, and without exception in the New
Testament, refers to the mechanical structure by which folks entered and
exited a walled city. After gates were shut for the night, and guards posted,
people typically had to wait till sunup to resume their goings in and their
goings out.

Death has always been humanity's No.1 pain in the neck. It throws a
monkey wrench into everything. But I think what Jesus said to Peter is that
death won't succeed in throwing a monkey wrench into plans for his church.
For them, death is merely a temporary inconvenience-- it settles nothing
permanently.

• John 11:25 . . I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me,
though he were dead, yet shall he live.

• 1Cor 15:51-53 . . Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but
we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last
trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised
imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable must put on the
imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.

• 1Cor 15:55 . . O death, where is your victory?

NOTE: Jonah added bars to the gates of hell (Jon 2:6) which makes sense
seeing as how most old-time city gates were secured like that.
_

 

[Mr E]

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a

On the right track.

Jesus explained an otherwise unfamiliar concept by putting it in familiar terms. 'The fire' he was speaking about they would immediately recognize as the fires farmers light at the end of the harvest time, where they burn the chaff and the weeds, and the pruned branches that didn't bear fruit. These are all gathered up and thrown to the flame where they are destroyed and are no more.

As you reference--Matthew 13 describes it explicitly in these terms...

As the poisonous weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be at the end of the age.

The context of the story emphasizes that this happens at the end of an age. (at the end of a season) and while folks tend to relate this as an eternal fire, that too is expressed within the same context as a cyclical event that goes on forever (season after season) at the end of every age, not something that burns constantly and forever. The flames are for a specific purpose and at a specific time for that purpose.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.

YOu say perhaps- but the bible says NOT!!!

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

It is not war poetry- but a warning to avoid eternal torment.

Perfect Jstice requires both eternal reward and eternal; punishment- the non existent cannot suffer anything!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Explaining Revelation 14:11:

10 “The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:​

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”​

First, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet, the city of Edom is not burning today.

Second, I believe the words “and they have no rest day nor night” is switching back to the point in time within the Tribulation. In other words, verse 11 is saying that those who worship the beast will be destroyed like Edom was destroyed (using the Metaphor in Isaiah 34:10), and they will have no rest day or night while they are worshiping the beast within the time of the Great Tribulation. So Revelation 14:11 is not teaching Eternal Torment (Although somebody can easily conclude such an idea with a surface reading).