Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

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keithr

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They can also be seen as two groups in Rev 7. When Jesus was speaking about his flock, you believe Jews, which I agree with,
I didn't say that the second fold of sheep were Jews, I said that it was those that come to faith during the Millennial Age. I was not referring to the 144,000 sealed Jews and the great multitude made up of people from all nations who came to faith during the great tribulation. I was referring to those coming to faith after that, those that are granted eternal life at the end of the Millennial Age, around 1,000 years later.

I did make a mistake in assuming there were just two folds, whereas Jesus said "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold", meaning that there are at least two folds - it could be more, e.g. he may have been alluding to the great multitude who go to heaven as well as the majority of mankind that will live eternally as humans on the Earth, and also the 144,000 and the remaining Jews. Everyone who will eventuall have eternal life must be part of the one flock.

however these Jews are from all nations and make up the Israel of God Gal 6:16. After itemizing those 144k by tribes in verses 4-8, the other sheep which are innumerable are spoken of in verse 9, these sheep survive the great tribulation v 14. Both those 144k, and these innumerable ones are sheep.
The sheep of the fold go to heaven, the sheep not of that fold inherit the earth. Ps 37:11, 29; Mat 5:5
You're not reading it carefully enough. The 144,000 are all Jews. The great multitude are made of peole of all nations, all tribes and all peoples and all languages - they're mostly not Jews. These are two seperate groups; the great multitude go to heaven, the 144,000 remain on the Earth (there is no mention of them ever going to heaven).
 

Robert Gwin

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I didn't say that the second fold of sheep were Jews, I said that it was those that come to faith during the Millennial Age. I was not referring to the 144,000 sealed Jews and the great multitude made up of people from all nations who came to faith during the great tribulation. I was referring to those coming to faith after that, those that are granted eternal life at the end of the Millennial Age, around 1,000 years later.

I did make a mistake in assuming there were just two folds, whereas Jesus said "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold", meaning that there are at least two folds - it could be more, e.g. he may have been alluding to the great multitude who go to heaven as well as the majority of mankind that will live eternally as humans on the Earth, and also the 144,000 and the remaining Jews. Everyone who will eventuall have eternal life must be part of the one flock.


You're not reading it carefully enough. The 144,000 are all Jews. The great multitude are made of peole of all nations, all tribes and all peoples and all languages - they're mostly not Jews. These are two seperate groups; the great multitude go to heaven, the 144,000 remain on the Earth (there is no mention of them ever going to heaven).
I explained it well enough Keith, obviously you disagree. Time will tell.
 

ElieG12

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(...) The 144,000 are all Jews. The great multitude are made of peole of all nations, all tribes and all peoples and all languages - they're mostly not Jews. (...)
The term "Jew" when applied to Christians takes on a completely different connotation. It no longer means belonging to a race in the flesh, but rather having a very specific spiritual relationship with Jehovah and his Son.
(...) These are two seperate groups; the great multitude go to heaven, the 144,000 remain on the Earth (there is no mention of them ever going to heaven).
According to Revelation it is totally the contrary: the 144000 are the ones taken out of earth to be inmortal kings and priest with Jesus, and the great multitude is the whole group of survivors of the great tribulation on earth (Rev. 20) and will be subjected to the second trial by the end of the Millennium.

The kingdom of God is composed by kings and subjects: kings on heaven and subjects on earth. Is it too difficult to understand? Jesus followers were the first kings selected ... and that is why it is said that the temple in heaven has 12 columns and 12 doors.

As a memory device, think about the following: Kings are a minority who rule over whole nations and peoples :

Dan. 7:13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
... 27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

It is not too difficult to understand if you think on how many were chosen to be ministers on the tabernacle or in the temple to serve in sacred matters before Jehovah: only a minority made up of the Levites and of them only the Aaronic family could perform certain special services. The same thing happens in the heavenly service, because what was seen on earth was a model of what happens in heaven where God lives in a real sense.
 

keithr

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The term "Jew" when applied to Christians takes on a completely different connotation. It no longer means belonging to a race in the flesh, but rather having a very specific spiritual relationship with Jehovah and his Son.
All Christians will be resurrected and in heaven before the great multitude, mentioned in Revelation 7:9, are gathered. The Church doesn't go through the great tribulation - these people do. The opportunity for gentiles to be grafted into the Israel of God, to become members of the body and bride of Christ, and to have a share in Christ's inheritance, ended when the Church was resurrected. The great multitude come to have belief and faith after that, and go through the great tribulation, and so are not part of the Christian Church. Remember Jesus' parable in Matthew 25 about the ten virgins - the five wise virgins make it into the marriage of the Lamb, but the foolish virgins miss out because they are not ready at the cut-off time; they were not prepared for Christ's return for the bride (Church).
According to Revelation it is totally the contrary: the 144000 are the ones taken out of earth to be inmortal kings and priest with Jesus, and the great multitude is the whole group of survivors of the great tribulation on earth (Rev. 20) and will be subjected to the second trial by the end of the Millennium.
Please quote the verses that you think say that, because that's not how I read it. In Revelation 7:13 John writes:

One of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are arrayed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?”​

The elders are symbolic of the resurrected Church (Revelation 5:8-10). John knew who they represented, and he considered himself to be part of that Church (Revelation 1:5-6), yet he didn't know who the great multitude were. The elder had to explain who they were.

The great multitude are said to be in heaven, before God's throne ((Revelation 7:9,15) and will serve God in His temple. Those mentioned in chapter 20 are the resurrected dead, not members of the Church or great multitude, who have lived on the Earth (as humans) throughout the Millennial Age (1,000 year reign of Christ).
 

ElieG12

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All Christians will be resurrected and in heaven before the great multitude, mentioned in Revelation 7:9, are gathered. The Church doesn't go through the great tribulation - these people do. The opportunity for gentiles to be grafted into the Israel of God, to become members of the body and bride of Christ, and to have a share in Christ's inheritance, ended when the Church was resurrected. The great multitude come to have belief and faith after that, and go through the great tribulation, and so are not part of the Christian Church. Remember Jesus' parable in Matthew 25 about the ten virgins - the five wise virgins make it into the marriage of the Lamb, but the foolish virgins miss out because they are not ready at the cut-off time; they were not prepared for Christ's return for the bride (Church).

Please quote the verses that you think say that, because that's not how I read it. In Revelation 7:13 John writes:

One of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are arrayed in the white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?”​

The elders are symbolic of the resurrected Church (Revelation 5:8-10). John knew who they represented, and he considered himself to be part of that Church (Revelation 1:5-6), yet he didn't know who the great multitude were. The elder had to explain who they were.

The great multitude are said to be in heaven, before God's throne ((Revelation 7:9,15) and will serve God in His temple. Those mentioned in chapter 20 are the resurrected dead, not members of the Church or great multitude, who have lived on the Earth (as humans) throughout the Millennial Age (1,000 year reign of Christ).
Mmmmh. Read again, it is simple:

To Daniel was said:

Dan. 7:13 “I kept watching in the visions of the night, and look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.
...27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’

Paul said:

1 Thess. 4:13 Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.

John said:

Rev. 1:4 May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,” and from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

And celestial creatures sing to Jesus in heaven:

Rev. 5:9 (...) “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

The most you know what the Bible says in its whole, you got a better understanding of the whole thing; some call it holistic understanding.
 

keithr

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1 Thess. 4:13 Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who are sleeping in death, so that you may not sorrow as the rest do who have no hope. 14 For if we have faith that Jesus died and rose again, so too God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus. 15 For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words.
The "Afterward", or 'next', at the start of verse 17, means immediately after the dead have been resurrected, those alive at the time of that resurrection, will be caught up and changed. The resurrection of the dead in Christ, and the rapture of those still alive occurs at the same time, when Jesus returns for his bride (the Christian Church).

1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.

Those sleeping (dead) and those alive are all changed in the twinkling of an eye. The great mulitude are separated from the resurrected Church by a lengthy period of time, at least the time of the great tribulation. They therefore can't be part of the Church.
The most you know what the Bible says in its whole, you got a better understanding of the whole thing; some call it holistic understanding.
Indeed! :) But it can be difficult to understand all the details of God's plan for mankind.
 

ElieG12

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(...)

Indeed! :) But it can be difficult to understand all the details of God's plan for mankind.
Start with a couple of questions, my friend:

1) are Jehovah's servants before Christ going to heaven?

2) what exactly will those who are going there do in the first place?

How does the Bible answer those two questions?
 

marks

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Is the Biblical definition of "eternal life" the same as "immortality"? As I'm reading some of these posts, it seems that's what some understand, that "immortality" = "eternal life". Is that how you are thinking?

Much love!
 

ElieG12

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Is the Biblical definition of "eternal life" the same as "immortality"? As I'm reading some of these posts, it seems that's what some understand, that "immortality" = "eternal life". Is that how you are thinking?

Much love!
No, they are not identical concepts.

INMORTALITY includes eternal life, that is the same hope all got, but the first one is a special gift that allows who got it from the living God himself, the source of the life, to have live coming from inside (to say it somehow). Inmortality allows them to live without being dependent on any additional care or maintenance. The life they have is infinite and self-sufficient.

Diferent than that, a person with a human body, no matter how perfect it is, could live forever, but would always be dependent on maintenance and special care that in ideal conditions would not be a problem, since God ensures eternal life for everyone on earth, just as it was supposed to be when he created the first human couple. Material bodies depend on food and other things ... immortals (which are not all spirits), on the contrary, do not need anything additional and won´t die in any situation while a human with eternal life can die in some specific events (Rev. 2:11; 20:6,14; 21:8).

Inmortality is something that God gave first to Jesus when came back to heaven, and will give to the rest of his brothers.
 

Keturah

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I believe the  soul is an immortal entity.
We are told  not to fear only those who can kill the body and take our life but to FEAR HIM WHO HAS POWER TO DESTROY BOTH BODY AND SOUL!

God has said in Ezekiel that ALL souls are  HIS. This is what the devil wants to steal from God, our souls. He is the prince of this world, was so when he was cast here when it was void and in darkness, then God created man giving him a soul. The devil doesn't want riches, nor jewels,nor splendor but POWER; POWER OVER THE IMMORTAL SOUL TO WORSHIP HIM !
 

ElieG12

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I believe the  soul is an immortal entity. (...)
Some contradictions there ... If your think all souls are inmortal, then how the text you quoted says it can be destroy (Matt. 10:28)? INMORTAL means INDESTRUCTIBLE.

If inmortality is universal even to impious, then why the Bible say this?

1 Tim. 6:14 (...) our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times. He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal might. Amen
 
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marks

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What is the Biblical definition of "eternal life"?

Much love!
 

keithr

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Some contradictions there ... If your think all souls are inmortal, then how the text you quoted says it can be destroy (Matt. 10:28)? INMORTAL means INDESTRUCTIBLE.
Why do you keep mispelling immortal as inmortal? There is no such word.

The dictionary definition of mortal is "subject to death; having a transitory life". Immortal is the opposite of mortal and means "not mortal; not liable or subject to death".
 

keithr

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What is the Biblical definition of "eternal life"?

Much love!
Simple - a person with eternal life will never die.

Revelation 21:4 (WEB):
(4) He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away.”​
 

keithr

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Start with a couple of questions, my friend:

1) are Jehovah's servants before Christ going to heaven?
I presume that you mean, are Jehovah's servants, or anyone, who lived before Jesus started his earthly ministry, going to heaven. I would answer no. Jesus said, Matthew 11:11 (WEB):

(11) Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.​

This implies that John, and all the Old Testament times prophets and servants of God, will not have a part in the Kingdom of heaven, so they won't be going to heaven.
2) what exactly will those who are going there do in the first place?

How does the Bible answer those two questions?
The first thing they'll be doing is praising God! (Revelation 4:10,11). Then they'll sing a new song to Jesus before observing him unsealing and opening the scroll that he took from God's right hand (Revelation 5). And so on. But this is digressing from the topic of this thread!
 

ElieG12

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Why do you keep mispelling immortal as inmortal? There is no such word.

The dictionary definition of mortal is "subject to death; having a transitory life". Immortal is the opposite of mortal and means "not mortal; not liable or subject to death".
My bad ... My first language is Spanish and it is spelled and pronounced INMORTAL, almost identical to the English translation and therefore very easy to confuse if you know both languages.

Biblical words have their own context.
1) are Jehovah's servants before Christ going to heaven?

I presume that you mean, are Jehovah's servants, or anyone, who lived before Jesus started his earthly ministry, going to heaven. I would answer no. Jesus said, Matthew 11:11 (WEB):

(11) Most certainly I tell you, among those who are born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptizer; yet he who is least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.​

This implies that John, and all the Old Testament times prophets and servants of God, will not have a part in the Kingdom of heaven, so they won't be going to heaven.
It sounds that you believe the totality of those who say they are Christians today are better than Abel, Enoch, Noah, the patriarchs, Moses, the old prophets, David, etc. Isn't it funny?

Heb. 11:13 In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land. 14 For those who speak in such a way make it evident that they are earnestly seeking a place of their own. 15 And yet, if they had kept remembering the place from which they had departed, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they are reaching out for a better place, that is, one belonging to heaven. Therefore, God is not ashamed of them, to be called on as their God, for he has prepared a city for them
(...) 39 And yet all of these, although they received a favorable witness because of their faith, did not obtain the fulfillment of the promise.

Or maybe: do you know where they'll go when they will receive their promise at the moment of their resurrection?
2) what exactly will those who are going there do in the first place?
The first thing they'll be doing is praising God! (Revelation 4:10,11). Then they'll sing a new song to Jesus before observing him unsealing and opening the scroll that he took from God's right hand (Revelation 5).
Funnier. It sounds like you think people need to go to heaven to praise God and sing to Jesus ...

The Scripture says what they'll do there:

Rev. 5:10 (...) You [Jesus] made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.

Dan. 7:27 “‘And the kingdom and the rulership and the grandeur of the kingdoms under all the heavens were given to the people who are the holy ones of the Supreme One. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all rulerships will serve and obey them.’
(...) And so on. But this is digressing from the topic of this thread!​
That's the funniest thing in your whole post, since it was you who said this in the first place:
All Christians will be resurrected and in heaven before the great multitude, mentioned in Revelation 7:9, are gathered. The Church doesn't go through the great tribulation - these people do.
Obviously, that is not true; it is just what you believe.

Do you want to go deeper on this topic? There's a lot of room in this forum ... What it lacks is real people truly interested on analyze the biblical truth with an open mind.
 
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marks

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Simple - a person with eternal life will never die.
So then you equate eternal life with immortality?

Jesus in John 17 prayed speaking concerning eternal life, He said This is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom you have sent.

Isn't eternal life to have communion with God? Beginning now, and proceeding forever because we are joined to the One Who alone possesses life within Himself. That's how I understand eternal life. We know Someone who is "outside", apart from our realm, and we share with Him His kind of life, in the eternal realm.

Much love!
 

St. SteVen

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Lifelong_sinner said:
Wow, more heretics. Great, just what this forum needs… :rolleyes::rolleyes:
the modern plain text readers often confuse what’s popular now for the traditional views not realizing how long , and widely accepted, other views have been that are mostly spread around those who look into scholarship and less so I pop culture.

But I look forward to anyone who wants to discuss a different understanding , and maybe even is daring to counter my points.
Right.
Actually, being a "heretic" is WAY underrated. - LOL
 
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Johann

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Is the Biblical definition of "eternal life" the same as "immortality"? As I'm reading some of these posts, it seems that's what some understand, that "immortality" = "eternal life". Is that how you are thinking?

Much love!
 
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