Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

[Phoneman777]

First of all, this Jude 7 translation word (angels) was added to the verse and is wrong. Out of 60 English translations, only two use this. All the other translations refer to the (people in the towns, surrounding cities), not angels. I like the NASB and use it often. But no version is perfect. I use a half dozen versions and so with each scripture you must test it if it has something that sounds off. Many scholars are assigned to the production of a version of the Bible, a translation, and each one, different sections and so they all contritube to the finished product. Likely this scholar that submitted Jude 7 was an adherent to the Nephilim as being fallen angels - who went after strange flesh, (a reference in Gen. 6:4 "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.) So som scholars and laymen interpret these Nephilim as fallen angels, I don't. I don't believe angels were equipped for reproduction - Probably one of the reasons why Lucifer got so jealous and envious of mankind, he couldn't have sex! lol
As far as Hell goes, It go against the traditional view of the Church. I have done plenty of study on the topic, which inspired me to write a book with a couple chapters devoted to it.
It comes down to the word key word, "eternal" (aionios), which has variable meanings pertaining to the realm of which it is describing. when referring to God and His domain, it means eternal. But when referring to a temporal realm, like earth, and Hades (which is in the earth), it is also temporal. So then it means and should be interpreted as generations, ages, lifetimes, epochs. The word everlasting should then be age-lasting or age-during. A key scripture that uses the same word but has different variable meanings (and the scholars knew this) is:
Matthew 25:46
KJV And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now about dozen translations use “everlasting” when referring to the (unbelievers, the reprobate, the damned) and then eternal for the (Chosen elect, the Church, believers).
The rest of the 50 translations use eternal for both, which I think is wrong.

YLT And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The other misconception is that Hades is Hell. The Lake of Fire is Hell. Hades and death, along with all the unbelievers (in Hades), Satan, the Antichrist and his horde, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. (Rev. 20:13-14 "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

So then you have to define what death is. It is the end of physical life and spiritual life. Then define destruction/ perishing. You can't destroy something over and over forever. Paper is burned in seconds in a fire. A body is incinerated when it is cremated in minutes. So eternal destruction doesn't make sense, it would be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing. It's contradictory.
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
Besides, why would God sustain billions of souls in a state of torment forever? It does not glorify him. He is merciful even to these lost souls and so their punishment is finite. Nowhere in scripture do we see God's punishment not fair. It was temporal and porportunate to the sin. It could have lasted moments, weeks, years, and centuries - but it always ended. You don't put a child in prison for life for stealing a candy bar, nor does God cause a teenager who died from a life of crime, drugs, sin _ even murder, to suffer eternal torment.

What is the word in the Critical Text versus the word in the Textus Receptus?

 

[Johann]

"EVERLASTING", "ETERNAL",
"FOR EVER", ETC.


I. In the Old Testament there are several words and expressions thus translated, the principal of which is

A. Olam . This word is derived from 'alam (to hide), and means the hidden time or age, like aion (see below II. A), by which the word, or its Adjective aionios , it is generally rendered in the Sept. In Ezra 4 and Dan. 2-7, the Chaldee form 'alam is used. There are 448 passages where the word occurs.

i. It is doubled, "from 'olam to 'olam " in 11 places, and is translated :--
1. "for ever and ever" in 1Ch_16:36; 1Ch_29:10. Neh_9:5. Jer_7:7; Jer_25:5. Dan_2:20; Dan_7:18.
2. "from everlasting to everlasting" in Psa_41:13; Psa_90:2; Psa_103:17; Psa_106:48.

ii. It is used in the plural 11 times, and translated :--
1. "for ever" in 1Ki_8:13. 2Ch_6:2. Psa_61:4; Psa_77:7.
2. "everlasting" in Psa_145:13 (see marg.). Isa_26:4. (see marg.); Isa_45:17. Dan_9:24.
3. "of ancient times or old times" in Psa_77:5. Ecc_1:10.
4. "of old" in Isa_51:9.

iii. It is rendered "for ever" in Gen_3:22;
iv. In conjunction with 'ad (see below, B) it is rendered :--

1. "for ever and ever" in Exo_15:18.
2. "for ever" in Psa_104:5.
3. "world without end" in Isa_45:-17. (*1)


viii. Rendered "for evermore" in 2Sa_22:51. 1Ch_17:14. Psa_18:50; Psa_37:27; Psa_86:12; Psa_89:28; Psa_89:52; Psa_92:8; Psa_106:13; Psa_113:2; Psa_115:18; Psa_121:8; Psa_133:3. Eze_37:26; Eze_37:28.
ix. Rendered "of old" or "ever of old" in Gen_6:4. Deu_32:7. 1Sa_27:8. Psa_25:6; Psa_119:52. Isa_46:9; Isa_57:11; Isa_63:9; Isa_63:11. Jer_28:8. Lam_3:6. Eze_26:20. Amo_9:11. Mic_7:14. Mal_3:4.
x. Rendered "old" or "ancient" in Ezr_4:15; Ezr_4:19. Job_22:15. Pro_22:28; Pro_23:10. Isa_44:7; Isa_58:12; Isa_61:4. Jer_5:15; Jer_6:16; Jer_18:15. Eze_25:15; Eze_36:2.
xi. Rendered "of" or "In old time" in Jos_24:2. Jer_2:20. Eze_26:20.
xii. Rendered "alway" or "always" in Gen_6:3. 1Ch_16:15. Job_7:16. Psa_119:112. Jer_20:17.
xiii. Rendered "ever" in Psa_5:11; Psa_111:5; Psa_119:98. Joe_2:2
xiv. Rendered "any more" in Eze_27:36; Eze_28:19; "long" in Psa_143:3. Ecc_12:5; "world" in Psa_73:12. Ecc_3:11; "continuance" in Isa_64:5; "eternal" in Isa_60:15; "lasting" in Deu_33:15; "long time" in Isa_42:14; "at any time" in Lev_25:32; and "since the beginning of the world" in Isa_64:4.


B. 'ad from the verb 'adah (to pass on), as a Noun is used of time past or future. It is also a Preposition or Conjunction, meaning "until" (see Oxford Gesenius , pp. 723, 4). The noun occurs 49 times, 19 of which occurrences are given above (A. iv). The remaining 30 are rendered :

i. "for ever" in Num_24:20; Num_24:24. 1Ch_28:9. Job_19:24. Psa_9:18; Psa_19:9; Psa_21:6; Psa_22:26; Psa_37:29; Psa_61:8; Psa_83:17; Psa_89:29; Psa_92:7; Psa_111:3; Psa_111:10; Psa_112:3; Psa_112:9; Psa_132:14. Pro_12:19; Pro_29:14. Isa_26:4; Isa_64:9; Isa_65:18. Mic_7:18.
ii. "everlasting" in Isa_9:6. Hab_3:6.
iii. "eternity" in Isa_57:15; "evermore" in Psa_132:12; "of old" in Job_20:4; and "perpetually" in Amo_1:11.



Other words are: -
C. Nezach , which means "excellence" or "completeness", and is the word used in the subscription of 55 Psalms for "chief" in "chief Musician". It is rendered :--

i. "for ever" in 2Sa_2:26. Job_4:20; Job_14:20; Job_20:7; Job_23:7; Job_36:7. Psa_13:1; Psa_44:23; Psa_49:9; Psa_52:5; Psa_68:16; Psa_74:1; Psa_74:10; Psa_74:19; Psa_77:8; Psa_79:5; Psa_89:46. Jer_50:39. Lam_5:20. Amo_1:11.
ii. "never" (with a negative) in Psa_10:11; Psa_49:19. Isa_13:20. Amo_8:7. Hab_1:4.
iii. alway(s) in Psa_9:18; Psa_103:9. Isa_57:16.
iv. "perpetual" in Psa_9:6; Psa_74:3. Jer_15:18.
v. "ever" in Isa_28:28; Isa_33:20; "strength" in 1Sa_15:29. Lam_3:18; "the end" in Job_34:36. Jer_3:5; "victory" in 1Ch_29:11. Isa_25:8. "evermore" in Psa_16:11; "constantly" in Pro_21:28 and "for ever and ever" in Isa_34:10. In this last passage it is doubled, lenezach nezahim = completeness of completenesses.


D. Kedem , from the verb kadam , to precede or prevent (2Sa_22:6, &c.), means that which is before, of time or place; hence often translated the east (Gen_3:24, &c.). It is always used of the past, and is rendered "ever" in Pro_8:23; "eternal" in Deu_33:27; "everlasting" in Hab_1:12; "old" or "ancient" in Deu_33:15. 2Ki_19:25. Neh_12:46. Psa_44:1; Psa_55:19; Psa_68:33; Psa_74:2; Psa_74:12; Psa_77:5; Psa_77:11; Psa_78:2; Psa_119:152; Psa_143:5. Isa_19:11; Isa_23:7; Isa_37:26; Isa_45:21; Isa_46:10; Isa_51:9. Jer_46:26. Lam_1:7; Lam_2:17; Lam_5:12. Mic_5:2; Mic_7:20; and "past" in Job_29:2.
E. Zmithuth , from zamath (to cut), means "for cutting off". It occurs only in Lev_25:23 (see marg.), Lev_25:30, and is rendered "for ever".
F. Tamid = always, is rendered :--
"ever" in Lev_6:13. Psa_25:15; Psa_51:3; "evermore" in Psa_105:4, and (with a negative) "never" in Isa_62:6.
G. Dor = generation, is translated (with a negative) "never" in Psa_10:6, and "for evermore" in Psa_77:8, where the margin in both cases gives "to generation to generation".
H. Yom = day, occurs nearly 2,500 times. The expression orek yamin , "length of days", is translated "for ever" in Psa_23:6; Psa_93:5. In both cases the margin gives "to length of days". Kal yamin , or kal hayyamin , "all days" or "all the days" is translated "for ever" in Gen_43:9; Gen_44:32. Deu_4:40; Deu_18:5. Jos_4:24. 1Sa_2:32; 1Sa_2:35; 1Sa_28:2. 1Ki_11:39; 1Ki_12:7. 2Ch_10:7; 2Ch_21:7. Jer_31:36; Jer_32:39; Jer_35:19; "ever" in Deu_19:9. 1Ki_5:1. Psa_37:26; and "evermore" in Deu_28:29. 2Ki_17:37.



II. In the N.T. the words rendered "for ever", &c., are the Noun aion , the Adjectives aionios , aidios , akatalutos , and aperantos ; the Adverbs aei and pantote , and the adverbial phrase eis to dienekes .

A. Aion , which means "age" (Ap. 129. 2), is found 128 times in 105 passages, in 23 of which it is doubled (see below, ii. 6, 9, 10). It occurs in its simple form 37 times, and with Prepositions 68 times.

i. In its simple form it is rendered :--
1. "age". Eph_2:7 (pl). Col_1:26 (pl).
2. "course". Eph_2:2.
3. "world". Mat_12:32; Mat_13:22; Mat_13:39-40; Mat_13:49; Mat_24:3; Mat_28:20. Mar_4:19; Mar_10:30. Luk_16:8; Luk_18:30; Luk_20:34-35. Rom_12:2. 1Co_1:20; 1Co_2:6-7 (pl), 1Co_2:8; 1Co_3:18; 1Co_3:1 Co_10:11 (pl). 2Co_4:4. Gal_1:4. Eph_1:21; Eph_6:12. 1Ti_6:17. 2Ti_4:10. Tit_2:12. Heb_1:2 (pl); Heb_6:5; Heb_9:26 (pl); Heb_11:3 (pl).
4. "eternal". Eph_3:11. 1Ti_1:17 (lit. "of the ages").


ii. In prepositional phrases :--
1. ap'aionos [from (Ap. 104. iv) an (the) age], rendered "since the world began" in Luk_1:70. Act_3:21; and "from the beginning of the world" in Act_15:18.
2. apo ton aionon [from (Ap. 104. iv) the ages], rendered "from the beginning of the world" in Eph_3:9.
3. ek tou ainos [out of (Ap. 104. vii) the age], rendered "since the world began" in Joh_9:32.
4. eis ton ainona [to (Ap. 104. vi) the age], rendered :--
a. "for ever" in Mat_21:19. Mar_11:14. Luk_1:55. Joh_6:51; Joh_6:58; Joh_8:35; Joh_12:34; Joh_14:16. 2Co_9:9. Heb_5:6; Heb_6:20; Heb_7:17; Heb_7:21. 1Pe_1:23; 1Pe_1:25. 2Pe_2:17 (no Art.). 1Jn_2:17. 2Jn_1:2. Jud_1:13.
b. "never" (with a negative) in Mar_3:29. Joh_4:14; Joh_8:51-52; Joh_10:28; Joh_11:26; Joh_13:8.
c. "ever" in Heb_7:24.
d. "for evermore" in Heb_7:28.
e. "while the world standeth" in 1Co_8:13.

5. eis hemeran aionos [to (Ap. 104. vi) day of an age], rendered "for ever" in 2Pe_3:18.
6. eis ton aiona tou aionos [to (Ap. 104. vi) the age of an age], rendered "for ever and ever" in Heb_1:8.
7. eis tous aionas [to (Ap. 104. vi) the ages], rendered :--
a. "for ever" in Mat_6:13. Luk_1:33. Rom_1:25; Rom_9:5; Rom_11:36; Rom_16:27. Heb_13:8.
b. "for evermore" in 2Co_11:31.

8. eis pantas tous aionas [to (Ap. 104. vi) all the ages], rendered "ever" in Jud_1:25.
9. eis tous aionas ton aionon [to (Ap. 104. vi) to the ages of the ages], rendered :--
a. "for ever and ever" in Gal_1:5. Php_4:29. 1Ti_1:17. 2Ti_4:18. Heb_13:21. 1Pe_4:11; 1Pe_5:11. Rev_1:6; Rev_4:9-10; Rev_5:13-14; Rev_7:12; Rev_10:6; Rev_11:15; Rev_14:11 (no Arts); Rev_15:7; Rev_19:3; Rev_20:10; Rev_22:5.
b. "for evermore" in Rev_1:18.

10. eis pasas tas geneas tou aionos ton aionon [to (Ap. 104. vi) all the generations of the age of ages], rendered "throughout all ages, world without end" in Eph_3:21.

B.

C. Aionios , of or belonging to an age, occurs 71 times, and is rendered :--
i. "eternal" in Mat_19:16; Mat_25:46. Mar_3:29; Mar_10:17; Mar_10:30. Luk_10:25; Luk_18:18. Joh_3:15; Joh_4:36; Joh_5:39; Joh_6:54; Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25; Joh_17:2-3. Act_13:48. Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:23. 2Co_4:17-18; 2Co_5:1. 1Ti_6:12; 1Ti_6:19. 2Ti_2:10. Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7. Heb_5:9; Heb_6:2; Heb_9:12; Heb_9:14-15. 1Pe_5:10. 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11; 1Jn_5:13; 1Jn_5:20. Jud_1:21.
ii. "everlasting" in Mat_18:8; Mat_19:29; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46. Luk_16:9; Luk_18:30. Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14; Joh_5:24; Joh_6:27; Joh_6:40; Joh_6:47; Joh_12:50. Act_13:46. Rom_6:22; Rom_16:26. Gal_6:8. 2Th_1:9; 2Th_2:16. 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_1:1 Tit_6:16. Heb_13:20. 2Pe_1:11. Rev_14:6.
iii. "for ever" in Phm_1:15.
iv. "Before or since the world began", in the phrases, chronois , aioniois , or pro chronon aionion , (in, or before age-times), strangely rendered in the R.V. "through, or before times eternal", in Rom_16:25. 2Ti_1:9. Tit_1:2.

 

[Johann]

Gee, a 1000 characters is really short.

 

[Phoneman777]

If the fire is eternal then why would it still be burning after the evil dead are annihilated? What's the point in that?

Isaiah 33:14-5 KJV:

[14] Who among us shall dwell with the DEVOURING FIRE? Who among us shall dwell with EVERLASTING BURNINGS? (The wicked? NO!)

[15] He that walketh UPRIGHTLY, and speaketh UPRIGHTLY; he that DESPISETH the gain of oppressions, that SHAKETH his hands from holding of bribes, that STOPPETH his ears from hearing of blood, and SHUTTEH his eyes from seeing evil;

[16] He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

God is a consuming fire, says Hebrews. While the wicked are being consumed "by the brightness of His coming", the righteous have been safely preserved by God all through the 7 last plagues, the time of trouble that so many deluded Christians claim is the Biblically unmentioned "7 years of tribulation" which they think they'll watch from heaven after Jesus has sneaked in and sneaked out with the saints in a "secret rapture".

No, when the Christian "in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump" is changed into our heavenly, immortal bodies, then we'll be able to eternally "dwell with the devouring fire" of God's glory, while the same will envelope the wicked and "devour them all".

 

[Johann]

Isaiah 33:14-5 KJV:

[14] Who among us shall dwell with the DEVOURING FIRE? Who among us shall dwell with EVERLASTING BURNINGS? (The wicked? NO!)

[15] He that walketh UPRIGHTLY, and speaketh UPRIGHTLY; he that DESPISETH the gain of oppressions, that SHAKETH his hands from holding of bribes, that STOPPETH his ears from hearing of blood, and SHUTTEH his eyes from seeing evil;

[16] He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

God is a consuming fire, says Hebrews. While the wicked are being consumed "by the brightness of His coming", the righteous have been safely preserved by God all through the 7 last plagues, the time of trouble that so many deluded Christians claim is the Biblically unmentioned "7 years of tribulation" which they think they'll watch from heaven after Jesus has sneaked in and sneaked out with the saints in a "secret rapture".

No, when the Christian "in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump" is changed into our heavenly, immortal bodies, then we'll be able to eternally "dwell with the devouring fire" of God's glory, while the same will envelope the wicked and "devour them all".

Sheol
Hades
Gehenna
Tartarus
Abyss
Eternal
Perish
Steve Lawson's powerful sermon on The Great White Throne Judgment!
Rebuttal of Annihilationism, Universalism, Purgatory
Denial of the Doctrine of Hell By The Cults
Exposition of Luke 16:19-31
Last Words From Saints And Sinners
There's No Place Like Hell - Sermon by Ian Paisley
The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment - Harry Buis
How Shall We Escape if We Neglect so Great a Salvation - W A Criswell
Multiple Related Resources on Hell - list at bottom of page
If you dare - Take a few minutes and watch John Bunyan's VIDEO The infernal dungeon of Hell

What does the word eternal (aionios) mean as it is used in Scripture, NOT as it is used by secular writers, including ancient Greek writers? Thankfully, God's Spirit has used the word aionios numerous times so one may glean an excellent sense of what this word means in the Bible.

Can you find Greek "authorities" who say aionios does not mean eternal?

Absolutely, but every man that claims to be an "authority" on this word is also a sinner and his words are not inspired by God, and thus are fallible and subject to error (they are not inerrant)! Only God's Word is inspired by the Spirit of God (Who is the Spirit of Truth). Only God's Word is infallible.

Only God's Word is inerrant. Therefore whatever God says on ANY subject is absolute truth, and takes absolute precedence over how the same word was used in the writings of fallen men. That said, here is what the GOD OF TRUTH SAYS about the crucial word ETERNAL (aionios) (And these are only a few examples to make the point).

Matthew 25:41 (WORDS OF JESUS) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionios) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

COMMENT - Jesus clearly states those on His left are to depart into the "ETERNAL FIRE." So Jesus believes in an ETERNAL FIRE. Is that a fair statement based on His own declaration? Secondly, Jesus states this ETERNAL FIRE is a place which has been prepared for the DEVIL. So that begs a question -- If ETERNAL FIRE is not real, then will the devil be let out of that place at some point in the future?

Clearly there is no Scripture that supports that premise. In fact John records the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10+ "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." How long will the devil be tormented according to John? These passages strongly support the premise that eternal fire will last forever, throughout eternity.

Matthew 25:46 (WORDS OF JESUS) “These will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.”

COMMENT - What is Jesus contrasting? Eternal punishment and eternal life. Correct? According to Jesus how long is life? Eternal. According to Jesus how long is punishment? Eternal. One can parse Jesus' words or attempt specious, clever word games, but His words are very simple and straightforward and clearly indicate that there are two states of every man ever born, either eternal punishment or eternal life. There is no middle ground. And if one argues that aionios does not mean "eternal" than they are painting themselves into a theological corner, because if eternal punishment is not forever, then eternal life is not forever and we are all in a hopeless situation!

J.

 

[Phoneman777]

No amount of theological philosophizing can establish the doctrine of eternal torment. Rather, accept the truth that man is mortal, and comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the body and the breath of life AS GENESIS 2:7 KJV SO PLAINLY TELLS YOU and that at death, the breath of life returns to God just as it was, the body to the Earth as dust as it was, and thus the soul ceases to be...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

As long as people continue to agree with the PAGAN DEFINITION of "soul" - an opaque, metaphysical, eternally existing entity that dwells within a physical body "shell" to which it resembles in appearance, thinking, and voice - they will continue to be primed for the great end time deception of "the spirits of devils working miracles which go forth to deceive" anyone who thinks that ghost of dearly departed grandpa is actually grandpa confirming by comforting words only a grandpa could muster that the Beast is not actually the Beast, the Mark is not actually his Mark, and all may safely join the multitudes on the path that unknowingly will lead them to destruction of the Beast and all who've been deceived into following it.

 

[Phoneman777]

Sheol
Hades
Gehenna
Tartarus
Abyss
Eternal
Perish
Steve Lawson's powerful sermon on The Great White Throne Judgment!
Rebuttal of Annihilationism, Universalism, Purgatory
Denial of the Doctrine of Hell By The Cults
Exposition of Luke 16:19-31
Last Words From Saints And Sinners
There's No Place Like Hell - Sermon by Ian Paisley
The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment - Harry Buis
How Shall We Escape if We Neglect so Great a Salvation - W A Criswell
Multiple Related Resources on Hell - list at bottom of page
If you dare - Take a few minutes and watch John Bunyan's VIDEO The infernal dungeon of Hell

What does the word eternal (aionios) mean as it is used in Scripture, NOT as it is used by secular writers, including ancient Greek writers? Thankfully, God's Spirit has used the word aionios numerous times so one may glean an excellent sense of what this word means in the Bible.

Can you find Greek "authorities" who say aionios does not mean eternal?

Absolutely, but every man that claims to be an "authority" on this word is also a sinner and his words are not inspired by God, and thus are fallible and subject to error (they are not inerrant)! Only God's Word is inspired by the Spirit of God (Who is the Spirit of Truth). Only God's Word is infallible.

Only God's Word is inerrant. Therefore whatever God says on ANY subject is absolute truth, and takes absolute precedence over how the same word was used in the writings of fallen men. That said, here is what the GOD OF TRUTH SAYS about the crucial word ETERNAL (aionios) (And these are only a few examples to make the point).

Matthew 25:41 (WORDS OF JESUS) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionios) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

COMMENT - Jesus clearly states those on His left are to depart into the "ETERNAL FIRE." So Jesus believes in an ETERNAL FIRE. Is that a fair statement based on His own declaration? Secondly, Jesus states this ETERNAL FIRE is a place which has been prepared for the DEVIL. So that begs a question -- If ETERNAL FIRE is not real, then will the devil be let out of that place at some point in the future?

Clearly there is no Scripture that supports that premise. In fact John records the devil's fate in Revelation 20:10+ "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." How long will the devil be tormented according to John? These passages strongly support the premise that eternal fire will last forever, throughout eternity.

Matthew 25:46 (WORDS OF JESUS) “These will go away into eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionios) life.”

COMMENT - What is Jesus contrasting? Eternal punishment and eternal life. Correct? According to Jesus how long is life? Eternal. According to Jesus how long is punishment? Eternal. One can parse Jesus' words or attempt specious, clever word games, but His words are very simple and straightforward and clearly indicate that there are two states of every man ever born, either eternal punishment or eternal life. There is no middle ground. And if one argues that aionios does not mean "eternal" than they are painting themselves into a theological corner, because if eternal punishment is not forever, then eternal life is not forever and we are all in a hopeless situation!

J.

"Aionios" means "duration: either undefined BUT NOT ENDLESS or undefined because endless".

If the wages of sin is "eternal torment", the only way Jesus could take our place and pay our penalty for us is that HE BE ETERNALLY TORMENTED.

The goal and aim of the scholar is to constantly seek to replace supposed truth with actual truth:

 

[Phoneman777]

Isaiah plainly says it's the RIGHTEOUS who will dwell in everlasting fire, not the wicked. Stick that in your fire and brimstone pipe and smoke it

 

[Phoneman777]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJV does NOT teach that at the Second Coming, God will "bring with Him" the saints who've died and gone to heaven back down to Earth to take part of some ridiculous celestial fashion show as these "disembodied souls" dress up in new, immortal flesh and bone bodies, as the Immortal Soul crowd teaches.

The verse is a HEBREW CHIASM where "death" and "resurrection" are the rhymed ideas:

A. For if we believe that Jesus died (death)
B. and rose again (resurrection)
A. even so them also which sleep in Jesus (death)
B. will God bring (forth from the tomb) with Him (resurrection).

The passage is no proof at all that the saints go to heaven at death, but confirms the theme of the last half of the chapter: the assurance of the promised resurrection of the saints in the same manner that God fulfilled His promise to raise Jesus from the dead "after three days". Did Paul tell us to comfort one another at funerals that "grandpa is dancing on the streets of gold? No - so, why do YOU do it? No, Paul says to comfort one another with words of the resurrection, which is the theme of this portion of Scripture, and is the point of verse 14.

 

[Johann]

No amount of theological philosophizing can establish the doctrine of eternal torment. Rather, accept the truth that man is mortal, and comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the body and the breath of life AS GENESIS 2:7 KJV SO PLAINLY TELLS YOU and that at death, the breath of life returns to God just as it was, the body to the Earth as dust as it was, and thus the soul ceases to be...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

As long as people continue to agree with the PAGAN DEFINITION of "soul" - an opaque, metaphysical, eternally existing entity that dwells within a physical body "shell" to which it resembles in appearance, thinking, and voice - they will continue to be primed for the great end time deception of "the spirits of devils working miracles which go forth to deceive" anyone who thinks that ghost of dearly departed grandpa is actually grandpa confirming by comforting words only a grandpa could muster that the Beast is not actually the Beast, the Mark is not actually his Mark, and all may safely join the multitudes on the path that unknowingly will lead them to destruction of the Beast and all who've been deceived in following it.

Sensitive topic--Hell and if it is eternal or no--annihilation or no--I go by what stands written, Perfect Tense--and not man's philosophy.

Rebuttal of Annihilationism, Universalism, Purgatory

We are pieces of clay telling other pieces of clay what and who YHVH is--and how to interpret Scriptures--how many times do we get it wrong?

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

For My machshevot are not your machshevot, neither are the darkhei (ways) of you the darkhei of Me, saith Hashem.

Or does the potter not have the right over the clay [YIRMEYAH 18:6] to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Rom 9:21 hath not the potter authority over the clay, out of the same lump to make the one vessel to honour, and the one to dishonour?
Or hath not the potter a right over the clay? (ē ouk echei exousian ho kerameus tou pēlou̇). This question, expecting an affirmative answer, is Paul’s reply to the previous one, “Why didst thou make me thus?” Pēlos, old word for clay, is mud or wet clay in Joh_9:6, Joh_9:11, Joh_9:14. The old word for potter (kerameus) in N.T. only here and Mat_27:7, Mat_27:10.
Lump (phuramatos). Late word from phuraō, to mix (clay, dough, etc.).
One part (ho men) - another (ho de). Regular idiom for contrast (meṅ̇de) with the old demonstrative ho (this), “this vessel (skeuos, old word as in Mar_11:16) for honour, that for dishonour.” Paul thus claims clearly God’s sovereign right (exousian, power, right, authority, from exesti) to use men (already sinners) for his own purpose.
Robertson


1) "Hath not the potter power over the clay," (e ouk echei eksousion ho kerameus tou pelou) "or has not the potter working, performing, or administering authority of or over the clay"; Does he not have or hold this prerogative, this moral right? This is the illustrated truth regarding God's sovereignty over his own creation, Isa_29:16.

2) "Of the same lump," (ek tou autou phuramatos) "out of the same (identical) lump," lump of clay. The argument of Paul is that as the lump of clay yields to the call and will of the potter, so should men and nations submit, yield to obey the word and will of God for them, Rom_10:16.

3) "To make one vessel unto honor," (poiesai ho men eis timess skeuos) "to make the one vessel unto honor;" for one purpose, an honorable purpose or use; as the potter can form the clay into a useful vessel, only as it yields to his will, so the master potter, (God) can form or fashion clay-like-men to honorable use, only as they yield or exercise their volition, will, or choice to obey his higher will, Luk_13:3; Luk_17:30-31; Rom_6:16; Rom_6:19.

4) "And another unto dishonor?" (ho de eis atimian) "and the one (other), or another, unto dishonor? for a differing or contrasting purpose? unto a dishonoring purpose or use? God set forth Jesus to be a payment for every man's sin, to redeem him from consequences of sin in him, but personal benefits of redemption are received only as men willingly receive that redemption through faith in Jesus Christ, Rom_3:24-25; Gal_3:26; Joh_1:11-12; Rom_1:16; Rom_10:9-13; Both salvation and useful service to God are contingent or dependent upon one's yielding or surrendering to the sovereign will, call, and convicting word and spirit of God, Jer_18:6; Isa_45:9; 2Ti_2:20.

PRIDE IN DICTATING TO GOD

The petty sovereign of an insignificant tribe in North America every morning stalks out of his hovel, bids the sun good-morrow, and points out to him with his finger the course he is to take for the day. Is this arrogance more contemptible than ours when we would dictate to God the course of His providence, and summon Him to our bar for His dealings with us? How ridiculous does man appear when he attempts to argue with his God!
-Spurgeon

God does not reason. - A gentleman examining some deaf and dumb children wrote up the question, "Does God reason?" One of the children immediately wrote underneath. "God knows and sees everything. Reasoning implies doubt and uncertainty; therefore God does not reason."
-Bib. Ill.

 

[Phoneman777]

Sensitive topic--Hell and if it is eternal or no--annihilation or no--I go by what stands written, Perfect Tense--and not man's philosophy.

Good idea, friend. Too often, trends and sensationalism dictate what is and is not doctrine, instead of plain Biblical reasoning.

 

[Johann]

Isaiah plainly says it's the RIGHTEOUS who will dwell in everlasting fire, not the wicked. Stick that in your fire and brimstone pipe and smoke it

Scriptures are in disagreement with you--

The chatta'im (sinners) in Tziyon are terrified; trembling hath seized the khanafim (hypocrites). Who among us can dwell with the devouring eish? Who among us can dwell with mokedei olam (everlasting burnings, see Dan 12:2)

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? that is, the wrath of God in hell, which is the fire that feeds upon and devours Christless sinners; which shall never be quenched, and is called everlasting fire, in which the followers of antichrist will be tormented for ever; and the smoke of which will ascend for ever and ever, and will be intolerable; none will be able to abide and endure it; see Rev_14:9. So the Targum interprets it of the place where the ungodly are to be judged and delivered into hell, an everlasting burning.
Gill.

Instead of your sarcasm against me--learn the Scriptures--

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Act 17:12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

More noble than those (eugenesteroi tōn). Comparative form of eugenēs, old and common adjective, but in N.T. only here and Luk_19:12; 1Co_1:26. Followed by ablative case tōn as often after the comparative.
With all readiness of mind (meta pāsēs prothumias). Old word from prothumos (pro, thumos) and means eagerness, rushing forward. In the N.T. only here and 2Co_8:11-19; 2Co_9:2. In Thessalonica many of the Jews out of pride and prejudice refused to listen. Here the Jews joyfully welcomed the two Jewish visitors.
Examining the Scriptures daily (kath' hēmeran anakrinontes tas graphas). Paul expounded the Scriptures daily as in Thessalonica, but the Beroeans, instead of resenting his new interpretation, examined (anakrinō means to sift up and down, make careful and exact research as in legal processes as in Act_4:9; Act_12:19, etc.) the Scriptures for themselves. In Scotland people have the Bible open on the preacher as he expounds the passage, a fine habit worth imitating.
Whether these things were so (ei echoi tauta houtōs). Literally, “if these things had it thus.” The present optative in the indirect question represents an original present indicative as in Luk_1:29 (Robertson, Grammar, pp. 1043f.). This use of ei with the optative may be looked at as the condition of the fourth class (undetermined with less likelihood of determination) as in Act_17:27; Act_20:16; Act_24:19; Act_27:12 (Robertson, Grammar, p. 1021). The Beroeans were eagerly interested in the new message of Paul and Silas but they wanted to see it for themselves. What a noble attitude. Paul’s preaching made Bible students of them. The duty of private interpretation is thus made plain (Hovey).
Robertson.

J.

 

[Johann]

Good idea, friend. Too often, trends and sensationalism dictate what is and is not doctrine, instead of plain Biblical reasoning.

Despite the sincerity of their motives, one wonders more than a little to what extent the growing popularity of various forms of annihilationism and conditional immortality are a reflection of this age of pluralism.

It is getting harder and harder to be faithful to the “hard” lines of Scripture. And in this way, evangelicalism itself may contribute to the gagging of God by silencing the severity of his warnings and by minimizing the awfulness of the punishment that justly awaits those untouched by his redeeming grace. (D A Carson - The Gagging of God: Christianity Confronts Pluralism)

 

[Phoneman777]

Scriptures are in disagreement with you--

Don't think so.

Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? that is, the wrath of God in hell, which is the fire that feeds upon and devours Christless sinners;

OK, stop right there, for you've left the truth of Scripture and meandered into the realm of SUBJECTIVITY. The passage asks the question and then plainly answers it - there's no need to appeal to other texts for an antithesis to the already plainly answered question:

"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? He that walketh uprightly...

The wicked do not walk uprightly, but are "crooked". However, the upright will dwell with our God Who "is a consuming fire". HIS GLORY IS THE FIRE IN WHICH THE RIGHTEOUS WILL DWELL. The wicked will burn up and out of existence.

which shall never be quenched

Strike a match and hold one end while it burns, then grab the burnt end and allow it to finish burning up the rest...did you quench it? Did the fire go out?

, and is called everlasting fire

Eternal Judgment means "order in the court, order in the court" - that the judgment will never end?

Eternal Redemption means Jesus will repeatedly die and redeem us and die and redeem us over and over?

Everlasting Fire of Sodom and Gomorrah means the two cities are still burning? No, they're under the Dead Sea.

Everlasting Fire, Judgment, and Redemption refers to "RESULT" - not "PROCESS".

in which the followers of antichrist will be tormented for ever; and the smoke of which will ascend for ever and ever, and will be intolerable; none will be able to abide and endure it; see Rev_14:9.

Yes, forever "but not endless". Their smoke ascendeth up "forever and ever" out of sight in distance, not for an eternity of time. And yes, it will be intolerable while they are enduring it, but they will eventually pass out of existence, when "they will be no more death, nor suffering, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away".

So the Targum interprets it of the place where the ungodly are to be judged and delivered into hell, an everlasting burning.
Gill.

Incorrectly interpreted, yes. The answer to who dwells with devouring, everlasting fire is the upright - who will dwell eternally in the glorious presence of God.

Instead of your sarcasm against me--learn the Scriptures--

What sarcasm? I'm only interested in pleasant exchange of ideas.

 

[Phoneman777]

Despite the sincerity of their motives, one wonders more than a little to what extent the growing popularity of various forms of annihilationism and conditional immortality are a reflection of this age of pluralism.

It is getting harder and harder to be faithful to the “hard” lines of Scripture. And in this way, evangelicalism itself may contribute to the gagging of God by silencing the severity of his warnings and by minimizing the awfulness of the punishment that justly awaits those untouched by his redeeming grace. (D A Carson - The Gagging of God: Christianity Confronts Pluralism)

To this, I answer:

The extent of our motives is twofold:

1) To exonerate the character of God from Satan's accusation that He intends to eternally torment the wicked which ascribes to Him a degree of sadistic cruelty fit only for the one authoring the accusation.

2) Present God as a loving, merciful Father Who gave to us His Son as a token of His great love and His desire to save us from annihilation due to unfitness for citizenship in His universal eternal kingdom - and invitation devoid of any reprehensible ideas about forced extraction of human affection by threat of eternal torment which makes the choice we make not so much for God as it is against the consequences for failing to do so - which I've no doubt is the case with most of the Immortal Soul crowd.

Is there anything in the life of Jesus that suggests God will eternally torment anyone?

"Have I been so long time with ye, yet thou hast not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me HATH SEEN THE FATHER. How sayest thou then, show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father and the Father in Me.?"

 

[Johann]

The wicked do not walk uprightly, but are "crooked". However, the upright will dwell with our God Who "is a consuming fire". HIS GLORY IS THE FIRE IN WHICH THE RIGHTEOUS WILL DWELL. The wicked will burn up and out of existence.

Error.

33:13 "You who are far away. . .you who are near" In context, this refers to God's people in exile in Assyria and to God's people still in Judah (cf. Dan. 9:7). However, seen in the wider context of the new age, it may be related to the Gentile and the Jewish people (cf. Isa. 49:1; it is idiom for all, cf. Jer. 25:26).

33:14 "Sinners in Zion are terrified" Again the reality of a mixture of the faithful and unfaithful within the people of God is acknowledged. Sinners

are terrified, BDB 808, KB 922, Qal perfect, cf. noun ‒ Isa. 2:10,19,21; 24:17,18; verb - 12:2; 19:16,17; 44:8,11; 51:13
trembling has seized the godless, BDB 28, KB 31, Qal perfect, cf. Isa. 13:8; 21:3
The "godless" (BDB 338) are described in Isa. 32:6 as those who practice godlessness and speak error against the Lord (cf. Isa. 9:17; 10:6).

 "Who among us can live with the consuming fire?

Who among us can live with the continual burning" This refers to God's holiness as seen through the metaphor of fire connected with His righteousness and His judgment (cf. Deut. 4:24; 5:24; Isa. 30:27,30).

For "continual" (lit. "forever")

33:15 This reflects the character of YHWH as seen in His people.

walks righteously
speaks with sincerity
rejects unjust gain
does not take a bribe
does not listen to evil plans (i.e., bloodshed)
does not look upon evil
33:16 The person who lives the life described in Isa. 33:15

will dwell on the heights
will take refuge in the impregnable rock
will have an abundance of food
will have a sure water supply
This describes the new age person. The ideal of Deuteronomy is actualized!

The wicked do not walk uprightly, but are "crooked". However, the upright will dwell with our God Who "is a consuming fire". HIS GLORY IS THE FIRE IN WHICH THE RIGHTEOUS WILL DWELL. The wicked will burn up and out of existence.

a. Such as are moved by sound, rather than sense, may assume that this "devouring fire" and "everlasting burnings" refer to hell; but, they have missed the point!

b. These terms, rather, refer TO GOD HIMSELF, as seen in his divine zeal for holiness, and in the jealousy of His pure love, (Exo_15:11; Exo_24:16-18; Deu_4:24; Deu_9:3; Heb_12:29; Deu_6:15; 1Jn_4:16).
3. The answer to the question in verse 14 is found in verses 15 and 16, (comp. Psa_15:2-5; Psa_24:4-6).
a. A godly remnant of the covenant-nation will be divinely protected and nourished, (vs. 16; Isa_25:4; Isa_26:1; Isa_49:10; Isa_48:22; cf. Psalms 23).

b. A holy and loving God must have holy and loving companions, (Isa_26:7-10; Isa_32:1; Isa_32:16-17; 1Jn_1:5-6; Eph_5:2; 1Jn_4:8-10).
c. There is within' the divine nature such an antagonism against evil as flames against it and strives to consume it, (Heb_10:26-27; 2Th_1:7-9).
d. Divine wrath is an essential element of divine love; God hates sin because He loves righteousness, (Psa_11:7; Psa_46:7; Heb_1:9).

Again, eternal is eternal--
He that walketh righteously,.... These are the words of the prophet, in answer to those of the hypocrites. So the Targum,
"the prophet said, the righteous shall dwell in it;''

not in the devouring fire and everlasting burnings, but in Zion, in Jerusalem, on high, in the munition of rocks, safe from those burnings; for these words are to be connected not with the preceding, but with the following verse Isa_33:16, "thus, he that walketh righteously", &c. "he shall dwell on high", &c.; and such an one is he that walks by faith on Christ as his righteousness; that walks after the Spirit, and not after the flesh; that walks uprightly, according to the rule of the Gospel, and as becomes it; that walks in the ways of judgment and righteousness, in which Christ leads his people, and lives soberly, righteously, and godly:

But the Prophet declares that God is always gracious to his worshippers, and that in this sense Moses calls him “a fire,” (Deu_4:24,) that men may not despise his majesty and power; but that every one who shall approach to him with sincere piety will know by actual experience that nothing is more pleasant or delightful than his presence. Since, therefore, God shines on believers with a bright countenance, they enjoy settled peace with him through a good conscience; and hence it follows that God is not naturally terrible, but that he is forced to it by our wickedness.

 

[Johann]

To this, I answer:

The extent of our motives is twofold:

1) To exonerate the character of God from Satan's accusation He intends to eternally torment the wicked which ascribes to Him a degree of sadistic cruelty fit only for the one authoring the accusation.

2) Present God as a loving, merciful Father Who gave to us His Son as a token of His great love and His desire to save us from annihilation due to unfitness for citizenship in His universal eternal kingdom - and invitation devoid any reprehensible ideas about forced extraction of human affection by threat of eternal torment which makes the choice we make not so much for God as it is against the consequences for failing to do so - which I've no doubt is the case with most of the Immortal Soul crowd.

Is there anything in the life of Jesus that suggests God will eternally torment anyone?

"Have I been so long time with ye, yet thou hast not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me HATH SEEN THE FATHER. How sayest thou then, show us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father and the Father in Me.?"

Interesting--what has this portion of scripture have to do with --

INDEX TO STUDY OF THE DOCTRINE OF ETERNAL PUNISHMENT:

Introduction
Digression on Eternal - The Greek Word Aionios
Hell Has Fallen on Hard Times
Teachings of Jesus Related to Eternal Punishment
Effect of the Truth of Eternal Punishment on Our Evangelistic Passionr
Quotes and Illustrations Related To Eternal Punishment
Resources Related to the Doctrine of Eternal Punishment
Definition of Terms Used for Eternal Punishment
Sheol
Hades
Gehenna
Tartarus
Abyss
Eternal
Perish
Steve Lawson's powerful sermon on The Great White Throne Judgment!
Rebuttal of Annihilationism, Universalism, Purgatory
Denial of the Doctrine of Hell By The Cults
Exposition of Luke 16:19-31
Last Words From Saints And Sinners
There's No Place Like Hell - Sermon by Ian Paisley
The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment - Harry Buis
How Shall We Escape if We Neglect so Great a Salvation - W A Criswell
Multiple Related Resources on Hell - list at bottom of page
If you dare - Take a few minutes and watch John Bunyan's VIDEO The infernal dungeon of Hell

Should you wish, I will share a link with you, but I know from experience people are not interested in "links"
J.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

What is the word in the Critical Text versus the word in the Textus Receptus?

Don't try to act smart!
I don't read and translate Koine Greek Hebrew, Aramaic or Latin ... do you?
I use KJV, NKJV, NASB, NIV, YLT and others at times. The Bible Gateway is wonderful in that you can see one verse in over fifty translations.

 

[Phoneman777]

Error.

Sorry, fact.

33:13 "You who are far away. . .you who are near" In context, this refers to God's people in exile in Assyria and to God's people still in Judah (cf. Dan. 9:7). However, seen in the wider context of the new age, it may be related to the Gentile and the Jewish people (cf. Isa. 49:1; it is idiom for all, cf. Jer. 25:26).

33:14 "Sinners in Zion are terrified" Again the reality of a mixture of the faithful and unfaithful within the people of God is acknowledged. Sinners

are terrified, BDB 808, KB 922, Qal perfect, cf. noun ‒ Isa. 2:10,19,21; 24:17,18; verb - 12:2; 19:16,17; 44:8,11; 51:13
trembling has seized the godless, BDB 28, KB 31, Qal perfect, cf. Isa. 13:8; 21:3
The "godless" (BDB 338) are described in Isa. 32:6 as those who practice godlessness and speak error against the Lord (cf. Isa. 9:17; 10:6).

 "Who among us can live with the consuming fire?

Let's not confuse literal with spiritual. No Jew literally dwelt in devouring fire during the siege of Jerusalem - the passage speaks of spiritual Zion, the church, and the hypocrites surprised at the coming of our Lord in great glory and fiery retribution. At that time, only the righteous will be equipped to dwell eternally in such glorious, consuming fire of our Lord Jesus - the wicked will be "burned up" and "shall not be able to deliver themselves from the power of the flame".

Who among us can live with the continual burning" This refers to God's holiness as seen through the metaphor of fire connected with His righteousness and His judgment (cf. Deut. 4:24; 5:24; Isa. 30:27,30).

For "continual" (lit. "forever")

33:15 This reflects the character of YHWH as seen in His people.

walks righteously
speaks with sincerity
rejects unjust gain
does not take a bribe
does not listen to evil plans (i.e., bloodshed)
does not look upon evil
33:16 The person who lives the life described in Isa. 33:15

will dwell on the heights
will take refuge in the impregnable rock
will have an abundance of food
will have a sure water supply
This describes the new age person. The ideal of Deuteronomy is actualized!




a. Such as are moved by sound, rather than sense, may assume that this "devouring fire" and "everlasting burnings" refer to hell; but, they have missed the point!

b. These terms, rather, refer TO GOD HIMSELF, as seen in his divine zeal for holiness, and in the jealousy of His pure love, (Exo_15:11; Exo_24:16-18; Deu_4:24; Deu_9:3; Heb_12:29; Deu_6:15; 1Jn_4:16).
3. The answer to the question in verse 14 is found in verses 15 and 16, (comp. Psa_15:2-5; Psa_24:4-6).
a. A godly remnant of the covenant-nation will be divinely protected and nourished, (vs. 16; Isa_25:4; Isa_26:1; Isa_49:10; Isa_48:22; cf. Psalms 23).

b. A holy and loving God must have holy and loving companions, (Isa_26:7-10; Isa_32:1; Isa_32:16-17; 1Jn_1:5-6; Eph_5:2; 1Jn_4:8-10).
c. There is within' the divine nature such an antagonism against evil as flames against it and strives to consume it, (Heb_10:26-27; 2Th_1:7-9).
d. Divine wrath is an essential element of divine love; God hates sin because He loves righteousness, (Psa_11:7; Psa_46:7; Heb_1:9).

Again, eternal is eternal--
He that walketh righteously,.... These are the words of the prophet, in answer to those of the hypocrites. So the Targum,
"the prophet said, the righteous shall dwell in it;''

Yes, the righteous dwell in the devouring fire - the wicked are devoured by it and cease to exist.

not in the devouring fire and everlasting burnings, but in Zion, in Jerusalem, on high, in the munition of rocks, safe from those burnings; for these words are to be connected not with the preceding, but with the following verse Isa_33:16, "thus, he that walketh righteously", &c. "he shall dwell on high", &c.; and such an one is he that walks by faith on Christ as his righteousness; that walks after the Spirit, and not after the flesh; that walks uprightly, according to the rule of the Gospel, and as becomes it; that walks in the ways of judgment and righteousness, in which Christ leads his people, and lives soberly, righteously, and godly:

That's not what Isaiah said. He asked and answered the question and no amount of mental gymnastics and tortured, erroneous interpretations can change that.

"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? HE THAT WALKETH UPRIGHTLY..."

But the Prophet declares that God is always gracious to his worshippers, and that in this sense Moses calls him “a fire,” (Deu_4:24,) that men may not despise his majesty and power; but that every one who shall approach to him with sincere piety will know by actual experience that nothing is more pleasant or delightful than his presence. Since, therefore, God shines on believers with a bright countenance, they enjoy settled peace with him through a good conscience; and hence it follows that God is not naturally terrible, but that he is forced to it by our wickedness.

Yes, God appeared to Moses as a fire, appeared to Manassas in fire, appeared to Israel as "a pillar of fire by night", appeared to John in brilliant fire, is called "a consuming fire" by Paul, etc.

Isaiah tells us plainly it is that devouring, consuming fire is God, in which the upright will dwell eternally.

 

[Johann]

Sorry, fact.

Let's not confuse literal with spiritual. No Jew literally dwelt in devouring fire during the siege of Jerusalem - the passage speaks of spiritual Zion, the church, and the hypocrites surprised at the coming of our Lord in great glory and fiery retribution. At that time, only the righteous will be equipped to dwell eternally in such glorious, consuming fire of our Lord Jesus - the wicked will be "burned up" and "shall not be able to deliver themselves from the power of the flame".

Yes, the righteous dwell in the devouring fire - the wicked are devoured by it and cease to exist.

That's not what Isaiah said. He asked and answered the question and no amount of mental gymnastics and tortured, erroneous interpretations can change that.

"Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? HE THAT WALKETH UPRIGHTLY..."


Yes, God appeared to Moses as a fire, appeared to Manassas in fire, appeared to Israel as "a pillar of fire by night", appeared to John in brilliant fire, is called "a consuming fire" by Paul, etc.

Isaiah tells us plainly it is that devouring, consuming fire is God, in which the upright will dwell eternally.

Are you seeking for a dialogue? I really don't mind if someone should "correct" me and the interpretation--or are you suggesting I am deliberately twisting and perverting scriptures because I believe in eternal Hell fire and people there will be tormented for olam?

Waiting
J.