Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

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Skovand1075

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I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible

16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible

7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible

30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a
 

Skovand1075

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Wow, more heretics. Great, just what this forum needs… :rolleyes::rolleyes:

the modern plain text readers often confuse what’s popular now for the traditional views not realizing how long , and widely accepted, other views have been that are mostly spread around those who look into scholarship and less so I pop culture.

But I look forward to anyone who wants to discuss a different understanding , and maybe even is daring to counter my points.
 

Robert Gwin

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I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible

16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible

7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible

30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a

Hell is simply were everyone goes when they die, quite literally the grave. Every individual who goes there will be resurrected and hell will be emptied Rev 20:13 and since there will be no more death it will no longer be needed and cast into the lake of fire v14.

We Christians pray for and anticipate the time when those in it are resurrected and looking so forward to seeing our dead loved ones again.
 

Phoneman777

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Wow, more heretics. Great, just what this forum needs… :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Don't worry...all heretics will eventually be burned up and out of existence in Fire Lake when they are annihilated in the Second Death which will be a permanent death, an eternal death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.

"If any man hateth his brother he is a murderer, and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him."

If no murderer hath eternal life,
HOW CAN HE HAVE ETERNAL SUFFERING?
 
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Phoneman777

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I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible

16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible

7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible

30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a
Thank you for posting this, some of which I plan to incorporate in a sermon I wrote up this morning. I especially enjoyed your point about the verse in Revelation, "smoke ascendeth up forever and ever" which is one of the "proof texts" used by the Eternal Torment crowd to "prove" their position. In like manner, "Sodom and Gomorrah...suffered the vengeance of eternal fire" to them is "further proof" for eternal torment, notwithstanding the fact that neither at this moment are on fire and are under the Dead Sea.

I had an Eternal Torment crowd member set me straight on this one time about it:

"The people who refused to leave Sodom and Gomorrah with Lot are now dead and burning forever".

So.....I showed him 2 Peter 2:9 KJV where Peter refers 3 times to the future as when they will burn, saying the wicked are "reserved" for punishment "unto" the day of judgment "to be" punished -- and a blind man can see that if their punishment is still future, they're not being punished right now. Did he change his mind? No amount of Scripture can convince anyone who selectively reads Scripture.
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days ...
First of all, this Jude 7 translation word (angels) was added to the verse and is wrong. Out of 60 English translations, only two use this. All the other translations refer to the (people in the towns, surrounding cities), not angels. I like the NASB and use it often. But no version is perfect. I use a half dozen versions and so with each scripture you must test it if it has something that sounds off. Many scholars are assigned to the production of a version of the Bible, a translation, and each one, different sections and so they all contritube to the finished product. Likely this scholar that submitted Jude 7 was an adherent to the Nephilim as being fallen angels - who went after strange flesh, (a reference in Gen. 6:4 "The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them; the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.) So som scholars and laymen interpret these Nephilim as fallen angels, I don't. I don't believe angels were equipped for reproduction - Probably one of the reasons why Lucifer got so jealous and envious of mankind, he couldn't have sex! lol
As far as Hell goes, It go against the traditional view of the Church. I have done plenty of study on the topic, which inspired me to write a book with a couple chapters devoted to it.
It comes down to the word key word, "eternal" (aionios), which has variable meanings pertaining to the realm of which it is describing. when referring to God and His domain, it means eternal. But when referring to a temporal realm, like earth, and Hades (which is in the earth), it is also temporal. So then it means and should be interpreted as generations, ages, lifetimes, epochs. The word everlasting should then be age-lasting or age-during. A key scripture that uses the same word but has different variable meanings (and the scholars knew this) is:
Matthew 25:46
KJV And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Now about dozen translations use “everlasting” when referring to the (unbelievers, the reprobate, the damned) and then eternal for the (Chosen elect, the Church, believers).
The rest of the 50 translations use eternal for both, which I think is wrong.

YLT And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

The other misconception is that Hades is Hell. The Lake of Fire is Hell. Hades and death, along with all the unbelievers (in Hades), Satan, the Antichrist and his horde, will be thrown into the Lake of Fire and destroyed. (Rev. 20:13-14 "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

So then you have to define what death is. It is the end of physical life and spiritual life. Then define destruction/ perishing. You can't destroy something over and over forever. Paper is burned in seconds in a fire. A body is incinerated when it is cremated in minutes. So eternal destruction doesn't make sense, it would be an indestructible destruction or imperishable perishing. It's contradictory.
"And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
Besides, why would God sustain billions of souls in a state of torment forever? It does not glorify him. He is merciful even to these lost souls and so their punishment is finite. Nowhere in scripture do we see God's punishment not fair. It was temporal and porportunate to the sin. It could have lasted moments, weeks, years, and centuries - but it always ended. You don't put a child in prison for life for stealing a candy bar, nor does God cause a teenager who died from a life of crime, drugs, sin _ even murder, to suffer eternal torment.
 
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robert derrick

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I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible

16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible

7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible

30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a
Hell is not the place of eternal torment. The lake of fire is.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Although, one moment in torment of flames of hell is enough for eternity.
 

Taken

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Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.​

OP ^

YES it IS...
NO it IS not...

YES Hell IS a place of eternal conscious torments....FOR “fallen” Angels.
NO Hell IS NOT a place of eternal conscious torments...FOR Men.

Angels ARE celestial SPIRITAL beings. ALIVE SPIRITS can NEVER DIE.
Men ARE earthly terrestrial bodily MORTAL beings.


God OFFERS earthly bodily mortal beings, (an Order and Way), For God TO:
GIVE men A SPIRIT that SHALL NEVER DIE”.

God IS “graceful AND just”.
* God “ONLY” gives a man A SPIRIT that SHALL NEVER DIE, “TO MEN”, who SHALL forever BE WITH God.
* Men “WHO” SHALL “not be forever WITH God”....”ARE NOT given an “eternally Living SPIRIT”.


Glory to God,
Taken
 

friend of

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If the fire is eternal then why would it still be burning after the evil dead are annihilated? What's the point in that?
 

-Phil

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I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.
Amen.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.
Indeed. Hell is never what it’s thought to be, as without believing the thoughts - ‘it’ actually isn’t at all.
 

Rockerduck

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I rejoice I'm free of this world by the saving Grace of Jesus Christ and I don't worry about Hell. If Jesus says there is Hell , then I believe it.

Galatians 2:20 -I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

1 Corinthians 2:9 - But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
 

Adam

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The lake of fire can also be translated as something similar to crucible or melting kiln, which purifies metal by melting away the valueless dross. Early Christians like Origen and Gregory of Nyssa believed this.

Quote from Origen:
"Our God is a 'consuming fire' in the sense in which we have taken the word; and thus he enters in as a 'refiner's fire' to refine the rational nature, which has been filled with the lead of wickedness, and to free it from the other impure materials which adulterate the natural gold or silver, so to speak, of the soul."

When speaking of suffering, the original greek version uses aeon, which means a finite length of time, and within the context can be used to refer to the length of a man's life. In the Roman translation it was translated as aeternum, or eternal, which has a completely different connotation.
 
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Davy

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I like having spaces where you can have an actual dialogue and discuss and counter argue your points without 20 pages of stuff plopped down.

These are a few reasons why hell does not mean what so many thinks it does now days.

Matthew 25:41
New American Standard Bible

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

so the only aspect in this verse that leads you to anything eternal is the words eternal fire. The first thing to point out is that it says the fire is eternal. It does not mentioned anything about humans or angels being eternal. For a fact the Bible says only Yahweh is immortal.

1 Timothy 6:16
New American Standard Bible

16 who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

so only our god is naturally immortal. In order for something else to be immortal they have to be granted eternal life. Angels, not humans naturally have eternal life. Not even our spirits. But the Bible does say he will give some eternal life? Does he give eternal life to the saved or to the unsaved? What does he give the unsaved? He gives them the wages of sin which is death. They are never given eternal life.

Also it’s good to examine this concept of eternal fire. A eternal fire with endless smoke correct? So what does that mean? Is it literal? Or is it something God used metaphorically?

Jude 7
New American Standard Bible

7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

so here it says that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah also experienced this eternal fire. This hyperlinks is back to the story in genesis .

Those places are not still on fire. Those places have not been on fire for thousands of years. The fire burned the city all up. So eternal fire seems to be war poetry for destruction.

with a eternal fire we would expect endless smoke. We see this same “ war speech” used for Edom.

Isaiah 34:6-12
New American Standard Bible

6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It drips with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah,
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
So their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its officials will be nothing.

Those verses say that Edom will be filled with blood. There rivers turned to pitch. A endless fire with endless smoke forever and ever. No new generation will live there.

well Edom is not on fire. It’s rivers are not pitches of blood. It’s not still smoking either. Just like Sodom is not still smoking. The Jewish writers used a lot of metaphors. “ land flowing with milk and honey “ and so on.

so when you see endless fire, smoke that never ends, it’s highly poetic and symbolic.

which brings us to revelation. Revelation is probably the most symbolic book in the Bible. It’s full of poetic imagery. Sea dragons, horse men of death, dragons with horns, Jesus riding a horse in the sky. It’s all imagery. It’s not literal. It means something. Just like when I say ,” I’m so hungry I could eat a horse “ does not actually mean I can consume a 1200lb animal. I would be full before even a fraction was touched.

so the other verse, from the highly symbolic book of revelation, says this.


Revelation 20:10
New American Standard Bible

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

In addition to knowing revelation is highly symbolic, we also should be able to use wisdom by now to understand the war poetry being used. Lakes of fire ( streams of pitch ) tormented day and night ( forever burning and smoking ).

But it says that Satan is tossed into the lake of fire. What else is tossed into the lake?


Revelation 20:14
New American Standard Bible

14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So it says both death and hades was tossed in the fire as well. But is death and hades actual beings? Death is not actually a pale rider on a horse. Death is not a creature. It’s a state of being. Hades is a place of death. They are both associated with death.

so hades and death is not being tormented say and night. But they were destroyed. So perhaps the lake of fire that brings the second death is war poetry for destruction. Coming to a end. This matches up with the Bible very well.


Matthew 10:28
New American Standard Bible

28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

God destroys both the body and soul in hell. Does not save torment. Says destroys. Kills. Makes dead. Hell, the second death, is where those thing cast into it comes to a end and is destroyed.

That really make sense because what is the wages of sin? Death. The wages of sin is death?

Matthew 13:30
New American Standard Bible

30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

I mean here is a metaphor that is less confusing for modern people who don’t understand the symbolism for eternal fire, endless smoke and torture day and night. In Matthew Jesus says the weeds are gathered and burned. What happens to weeds in a
You are misleading yourself.

Haides is the abode of the wicked also called "hell" in the KJV.

It is a holding place in the heavenly dimension for the wicked dead. In Luke 16, Jesus gave the example of the rich man being taken to hell on one side of Paradise, and there the rich man suffered burning torments. In the Greek the idea of his torment is a word that means a 'touchstone'. A touchstone is stone that measures the content of gold in ore. Spiritually, it means the rich man didn't 'measure up', and thus dwelt in torments of shame. Thus Hades is a very real place in the heavenly dimension. Isaiah 42 and Revelation 20 points to that being where Satan's pit prison house is.

The future "lake of fire" is different than Hades. The "lake of fire" is where the beast and false prophet are cast into and destroyed. And then after God's GWT Judgment it is where Satan, the wicked, Hades, and death, are all cast into and destroyed. The Psalms says into smoke they shall consume away.

So when reading the word "hell", it's important to look in the Greek to see which Greek word is being used, to know whether Hades or the "lake of fire" is being referred to.
 
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ElieG12

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Interestingly, almost every time Jesus talks about Gehenna, he mentions bodies that end up there (Matt. 5:29,30; 10:28; 18:9; Mark 9:43,45,47) .

So Gehenna is no place for disembodied "souls."
 

keithr

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If the fire is eternal then why would it still be burning after the evil dead are annihilated? What's the point in that?
In Jude 1:7 it says, (WEB):

(7) Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are shown as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.​

However, if Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by eternal fire, where is that fire today (and for the last 3,670 years or so)? We therefore have to be suspicious of the translation to the word "eternal". Someone once told me that the Greek word that's translated as eternal (aionios) really means something like "until completion", i.e. it will last until it has completed it's task, so eternal fire means it will last at least as long as it takes to destroy what is thrown into it.

After a quick Internet search I found this - What Does Aionios Mean? Here's an extract from the page:

The Greek words aion and aionios, and the Hebrew equivalent olam, mean “age” and refer to a specific aeon, epoch or season. Although translated “eternal” and “everlasting”, they simply do not mean forever and ever.​
The words aion, aionios and olam instead refer to a defined period of time dependent on the subject they describe. They can thus refer to short or long periods of time, but they never mean unending, never-ending, infinity, or forever and ever.​
In his Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent explained: “Aion, transliterated aeon, is a period of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself” (italics added).​
Campbell Morgan, a highly respected expositor of Scripture, said: “Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word ‘eternity.’ We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our ‘eternal,’ which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end.” (Campbell Morgan, God‘s Methods with Man).​
Young’s Literal Translation translates the Greek words consistently using the phrase “age-during”. While this makes for some clumsy reading, it certainly better captures the true meaning of the original words.​
In other words, aion, aionios and olam refer to a specific duration of time dependent on its subject or the context in which it appears. Never does it explicitly mean “without end” which the English words endless, unending, eternal, eternity, infinity and forever convey.
Let’s consider some New Testament examples where the Greek words are correctly translated “age” or “world,” and cannot possibly mean “eternal”, as in forever and ever.​
Jesus said, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage” (Luke 20:34).​
It goes without saying that He wasn’t saying, “The sons of this eternity marry…” or “The sons of this forever…”. It wouldn’t make any sense.​
Paul wrote, “do not be conformed to this world…” (Romans 12:2).​
The word “world” in Greek is aionios and refers to this current age or epoch of time, and in this case, its specific influence, which has a definitive end. It can’t possibly mean “eternal” as in never-ending. Paul was obviously not saying, “do not be conformed to this eternity…” or “do not be conformed to this infinity…”. It would be nonsensical.​
Paul wrote, “… not only in this age but also in that which is to come” (Ephesians 1:21).​
Paul is referring to some specific now, “this age,” which clearly has an end as it is compared to another specific age in the future. He did not mean, “…not only in this eternity but also…” or “…not only in this forever and ever but…”. Again, it would be a ludicrous remark.​
The corresponding Hebrew word (olam) is likewise often incorrectly translated with the English word “forever.”​
  • For example, Jonah is translated as saying that he was in the belly of the fish “forever,” which of course lasted for just three days (Jonah 1:17; 2:6). Obviously, Jonah was not claiming to be in the fish for all eternity.
  • Animal sacrifices were to be offered “forever” until, of course, the once-for-all sacrifice of Jesus Christ ended the need for animal sacrifices (2 Chronicles 2:4; Hebrews 7:11-10:18).
  • Our English translation has God expressing His intention to dwell in Solomon’s temple “forever.” The temple was, of course, destroyed (2 Chronicles 7:16). We know that God was expressing His intention to inhabit Solomon’s temple for a specific “season” or “age.”
The point is simple: our English words can distort the meaning of the original words. In this case, “eternal”, “everlasting” and “forever”, which for us mean “without end”, do not accurately capture the time-specific words aion, aionios or olam.
 
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Webers_Home

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God has a passion for mercy; but it's not His only passion.

Rom 11:22 . . Behold then the kindness and severity of God

The human condition is so bad, so corrupt, and so hopeless that only the
death of God's sole descendant is adequate to rescue everybody from the
lake of fire depicted at Rev 20:10-15 where numbers of folks will be
terminated with extreme prejudice by a mode of death akin to a foundry
worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

Now, who in their right might mind can look at that scene and not come
away with the opinion that it depicts a very cruel and unusual punishment?
Why not just put folks down with an injection so that they softly and gently
fall asleep never to wake up? Wouldn't that be nicer, more humane? Yes that
would be nicer and more humane; but would it satisfy God?

Adam started out in the image of God. So at first, his sense of right and
wrong was in agreement with his creator's sense of right and wrong. Then
came the forbidden fruit incident when Adam's original sense of right was
lost and his conscience became that of a tin god.

Well; that's why many of us cannot appreciate our maker's justice. If we did,
we wouldn't be criticizing Him for the way He intends to punish folks.
Instead, we'd be cheering Him on; like this:

Rev 16:5-7 . .Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: You are
just in these judgments: You who are, and who were; the Holy one, because
you have so judged . . .Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your
judgments.

* The "Holy one" is none other than God's descendant, i.e. the sweet little
babe away in a manger will be presiding at the great white throne event.

John 5:22-23 . . Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all
judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the
Father.

Acts 17:31 . . He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice
by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by
raising him from the dead.
_
 
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Scott Downey

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God has a passion for mercy; but it's not His only passion.

Rom 11:22 . . Behold then the kindness and severity of God

The human condition is so bad, so corrupt, and so hopeless that only the
death of God's sole descendant is adequate to rescue everybody from the
lake of fire depicted at Rev 20:10-15 where numbers of folks will be
terminated with extreme prejudice by a mode of death akin to a foundry
worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

Now, who in their right might mind can look at that scene and not come
away with the opinion that it depicts a very cruel and unusual punishment?
Why not just put folks down with an injection so that they softly and gently
fall asleep never to wake up? Wouldn't that be nicer, more humane? Yes that
would be nicer and more humane; but would it satisfy God?

Adam started out in the image of God. So at first, his sense of right and
wrong was in agreement with his creator's sense of right and wrong. Then
came the forbidden fruit incident when Adam's original sense of right was
lost and his conscience became that of a tin god.

Well; that's why many of us cannot appreciate our maker's justice. If we did,
we wouldn't be criticizing Him for the way He intends to punish folks.
Instead, we'd be cheering Him on; like this:

Rev 16:5-7 . .Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: You are
just in these judgments: You who are, and who were; the Holy one, because
you have so judged . . .Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your
judgments.

* The "Holy one" is none other than God's descendant, i.e. the sweet little
babe away in a manger will be presiding at the great white throne event.

John 5:22-23 . . Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all
judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the
Father.

Acts 17:31 . . He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice
by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by
raising him from the dead.
_
agree it is forever and ever.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
abides continually forever


The KJV translates Strong's G3306 in the following manner: abide (61x), remain (16x), dwell (15x), continue (11x), tarry (9x), endure (3x), miscellaneous (5x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]
  1. to remain, abide
    1. in reference to place
      1. to sojourn, tarry
      2. not to depart
        1. to continue to be present
        2. to be held, kept, continually
    2. in reference to time
      1. to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure
        1. of persons, to survive, live
    3. in reference to state or condition
      1. to remain as one, not to become another or different
  2. to wait for, await one