Why I Believe God Created Man (Adam) Sin-ful

[jeremiah1five]

Why I believe God created Adam sin-ful:

There is only one God.
The Biblical definition of sin is literally, "to miss the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The glory [and perfection] of God.

Since God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself, Adam's creation fell short of the glory of God. This is the reason why Adam disobeyed God in the command to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The eating of the fruit did not change the nature of Adam, he did not undergo any metamorphosis change to his nature (meaning he did not change from "good" to "evil"), but since he was created sin-ful, or missing the mark of the glory of God, he sinned. The Second Adam, Christ, proved this. Sin does not originate from holy. Sin does not originate from righteousness. Again, the Second Adam proved this.

If indeed God created Adam "missing the mark" of the glory of God (God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself), which is what I believe, then the question becomes "How can a righteous God create and unrighteous being (Adam)? It would be inconsistent with the nature of God to do this. But He did it. He was able to create an unrighteous being (Adam) because God made atonement in Himself before He created heaven, earth, man, and the realm of TIME in which to create a man, and from this man, take out a people to Himself.

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

As all three members of the Trinity of God was directly involved in the creation of heaven and earth, so, too, is the Trinity of God directly involved in the creation of the new man in Christ. And because of this group God ordained to eternal life whose names are in the book of life of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, the long-suffering of God waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God before Him in TIME in order to birth His people that He may directly provide deliverance to them. God knows the end from the beginning because He has ordained the end.

There is only One God. Adam was not holy, nor in standing before a holy God, was Adam innocent, nor righteous. He was not God. There is only One God. Adam was created fallen short of the glory of God, because again, there is only One holy, righteous, and omnipotent God. It was the only way God could create Adam for God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself. Nor does sin come from holy. The Second Adam, who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth, did no sin because He was holy, and righteous, and innocent. But the first Adam did sin because it was his nature to sin. Adam only did what his sin-ful nature dictated he do, that is, disobey God.

Isn't Paul correct when he said:

1 Timothy 1:9
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers...

There was a law in the Garden of Eden which is found here:

Genesis 2:17
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam sinned because he was created sin-ful, or as the word means, falling short of the glory of God. If the existence of the Law of God to do or not do a thing, and the existence of the Law reveals that we are sin-ful, the existence of a "Thou shalt not" is a restriction God placed on Adam to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The commands of the LORD are Law, and the Law of the LORD are commands. There is no distinction. The apostle Paul said:

Romans 7:7
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Paul said: "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet." The same reasoning applies to Adam: Adam had not known disobedience except the Law said, thou shalt not eat of it.

Sin comes from sinfulness. Holy comes from holiness. The Last Adam. Jesus Christ, proved this.
There is only One God.
And that is why I believe God created Adam (man) sin-ful.

 

[Dan57]

If in fact, God created us sinful, then it would be unrighteous to judge or condemn us for our sinful nature.

I don't believe God created sin or sinners, but created us with free-will, by which we voluntarily choose to be sinful.

A&E ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil because they were disobedient to God, they did so of their own
volition. Sin wasn't their nature, but something they freely chose to do. JMO

 

[jeremiah1five]

If in fact, God created us sinful, then it would be unrighteous to judge or condemn us for our sinful nature.

That would be your vanity talking and leaning on your own understanding.
Does God need to explain to you what He does with His own creation?
But as I explained in my post God's elect are not sin-ful for when He first contemplated creating His elect He always saw them in Himself and in His Mind as a holy, righteous people for there is no sin in God nor is there death in God. That's the only way He can see them in Himself before creation. And before creating His elect outside Himself there was atonement made for this people in eternity in order to allow God to create His elect in TIME. He has to put a body to those names in the book of life of the lamb slain from before the foundation (creation) of the world (Rev. 13:8 ).

I don't believe God created sin or sinners, but created us with free-will, by which we voluntarily choose to be sinful.

There's a breach in your thinking to go from "sin or sinners" to "free will."
If God did not create man "sin or sinners" then the opposite would be He created man holy and righteous (like Jesus Christ), "free will" has nothing to do with it. The will is dependent on the nature of the being. In other words holiness comes from holy, and sin comes from sinners. But God did not create a being "neutral" for then such a being would have a "neutral" will, meaning he could not exercise the will either way.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil did not have any magical power to change Adam one way or the other. There was no poison in the tree. All it served to do for God was to give the knowledge of good and evil, not provide good or evil. It enabled Adam to gain the knowledge of his condition before God, which before God was quite "impossible" for this condition to be understood by Adam standing alone. In other words, If Adam was created sinless, then the tree would serve no purpose for then Adam could not have disobeyed but as with Christ, fulfill every requirement and command of God perfectly. "Neutrality" is off the table for as the tree dictates there is an "either, or" (good OR evil), not good, evil, or "neutral." Are you following? One is either holy or they are not and are sin-ful. There is no such thing as half holy and half unholy. There is no such thing as being half-pregnant. One is either, or the other. One either has the Holy Spirit or they don't (Rom. 8:9).

A&E ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil because they were disobedient to God, they did so of their own
volition. Sin wasn't their nature, but something they freely chose to do. JMO

And I appreciate your opinion. But when all is said and done here you have to do something with this information. Either receive or reject, there is no medium, there is no "neutrality."
I think your opinion has to do with what you were taught. I was taught the same thing as you, that is that we are sinners because we sin. After years of Bible Study of the great doctrines of the Bible, specifically, the Doctrine of Man, it has become reasonable and very clear to me that instead of the teaching that is in the Church that we are sinners because we sin, I have concluded to see that we sin because we are sinners.
Jesus Himself said,

Matthew 6:24
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

There is no "neutrality" here. There are two kingdoms: the kingdom of this world, or the kingdom of God. There is no third kingdom - the kingdom of "neutrality." The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil only provided the knowledge and revealed the nature of man, that he was evil. It didn't create good or evil, but made man knowledgeable of his condition. The last Adam, Christ, proved that holiness comes from holy, and righteousness comes from righteous. Christ born into the world was not "neutral," He was holy, and sin does not come from holiness. In other words, Christ could not sin because He was born holy and righteous.


Acts 4:27a
27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed...

Do you see what you said above? "A&E ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil because they were disobedient to God..."
They disobeyed because they were disobedient. They weren't disobedient because the disobeyed. It is the same thing that is taught in the Church, that we are sinners because we sin, rather than the opposite which is true that we sin because we are sinners.
Are you familiar with the Doctrine of Imputation? It is found here among other places:

2 Corinthians 5:21
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

A couple of things...in the KJV the words "to be" are not in the original manuscripts. So, the passage would instead read: "For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
The nature of God (among others) is righteousness. In imputation with Christ we are imputed Christ's righteousness and Christ is imputed our sin-ful nature. In short, it is a nature swap for purposes of atonement. This is how God "made Him sin" on the cross. The Doctrine of Imputation does not say Christ was imputed our sinful acts and we are imputed His sinless acts. This is too superficial. The nature of man still would have to be dealt with by God or man could not stand before God. The nature of man would have to be addressed, that nature from which man's sin originates. Again, sin comes from sinfulness, and holy comes from holiness. Christ could not sin because He was sin-less. But man could sin because he was sin-ful. "Free will" is a moot point. As a matter of fact the teaching of man's free will is in reality an illusion. Not even God has free will. He has only ONE will, to do or not do a thing, but He doesn't have "free will" in the way it appears in man, to good or to evil. The same is true in man. Man sins because he is a sinner, he is not a sinner because he sins.

 

[Angelina]

God has never created anyone who was originally, a sinner. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God and they were sinless in the beginning. We have inherited that fallen nature from their disobedience.

Shalom!

 

[daq]

Since God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself, Adam's creation fell short of the glory of God. This is the reason why Adam disobeyed God in the command to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The eating of the fruit did not change the nature of Adam, he did not undergo any metamorphosis change to his nature (meaning he did not change from "good" to "evil"), but since he was created sin-ful, or missing the mark of the glory of God, he sinned. The Second Adam, Christ, proved this. Sin does not originate from holy. Sin does not originate from righteousness. Again, the Second Adam proved this.

Perhaps you assume too much? There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. So also it is written that the first anthropon-adam became a soul living; the latter-eschatos adam into a spirit quickening. However, that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. The first anthropon-man is of the earth, earthy: the second anthropon-man-faced is of heaven, and was given to the man as an "helpmate"-spirit companion. This truly could be so ...

 

[jeremiah1five]

God has never created anyone who was originally, a sinner. Adam and Eve were created in the image of God and they were sinless in the beginning. We have inherited that fallen nature from their disobedience.

Shalom!

Shalom!
Did you understand the Biblical definition for "sin?" It means literally, "to miss the mark."
The question begs: What is the "mark.?"
The "mark" or "standard" is the glory of God. He is the standard by which all things and people are judged. In the case of man (Adam), God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself. Therefore, God needs to create outside Himself, and everything outside Himself will fall short of His glory, in this case man. There is only One God. Man was not created holy for there is only One God. Man was not created all-powerful (omnipotent) for there is only One God. And in a beign is to possess one attribute of God he must by necessity possess all attributes of God, and Adam did not, does not, for there is only One God.

I believe that Christ was the image of God that God used in which to create His Elect. We are being conformed to Christ, not Adam (Rom. 8:29). And what better image of a Father is there than a Son?

1 Corinthians 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

God is Spirit, not flesh. Flesh would fall short of His glory. Only One Man can stand before a Holy God. Jesus Christ.
He is the image of God, not Adam, but the elect man who will be conformed to the image of Christ.

We are not sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners. This also applies to Adam. He disobeyed because he was disobedient. His disobedience proved this. He was not holy. He was not righteous, for again, there is only ONE God.

Perhaps you assume too much? There is a natural body and there is a spiritual body. So also it is written that the first anthropon-adam became a soul living; the latter-eschatos adam into a spirit quickening. However, that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. The first anthropon-man is of the earth, earthy: the second anthropon-man-faced is of heaven, and was given to the man as an "helpmate"-spirit companion. This truly could be so ...

This sounds like you are confusing spirit and Eve.
The first man (Adam) was created trichotomy, or three-part: body, soul, spirit. When he died the spirit aspect died. It wasn't the Holy Spirit. It was a human spirit. It enabled communication with God and enable Adam to process spiritual phenomenon. Ever since the death and annihilation of the spirit man has been born into the world two-fold, or dichotomy: body and soul.
When a person becomes born again from above God creates a new spirit in the vessel and the person is restored to the image of God, or a three-fold existence (trichotomy) Eph. 4:24; 2 Cor. 5:17).
If God does not intervene in the persons life and they die two-fold (body and soul) these will be forever separated from God.

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[daq]

This sounds like you are confusing spirit and Eve.
The first man (Adam) was created trichotomy, or three-part: body, soul, spirit. When he died the spirit aspect died. It wasn't the Holy Spirit. It was a human spirit. It enabled communication with God and enable Adam to process spiritual phenomenon. Ever since the death and annihilation of the spirit man has been born into the world two-fold, or dichotomy: body and soul.
When a person becomes born again from above God creates a new spirit in the vessel and the person is restored to the image of God, or a three-fold existence (trichotomy) Eph. 4:24; 2 Cor. 5:17).
If God does not intervene in the persons life and they die two-fold (body and soul) these will be forever separated from God.

Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

In the Beginning the Ruach-Spirit of Elohim moved over the face of the waters:

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit [HSN#7307 ruwach] of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Original Strong's Ref. #7307
Romanized ruwach
Pronounced roo'-akh
from HSN7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-])wind(-y).

Then we read of the creation of man-'adam taken from the dust of the 'adamah-soil:

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7. And the Lord God formed man [HSN#120 'adam] of the dust of the ground, [HSN#127 'adamah] and breathed [HSN#5301 naphach] into his nostrils the breath [HSN#5397 nshamah] of life; [HSN#2416 chay] and man became a living [HSN#2416 chay] soul [HSN#5315 nephesh].

Genesis 2:7 Strong's Ref. #s
7.
|3335| [yatsar] And formed
|3068| YHWH
|0430| ['elohiym] God
|0853| ['eth] -
|0120| ['adam] the man
|6083| [`aphar] {out of} dust
|4480| [min] from
|0127| ['adamah] the ground,
|5301| [naphach] and blew
|0639| ['aph] into his nostrils
|5397| [nshamah] {the} breath of
|2416| [chay] life.
|1961| [hayah] And became
|0120| ['adam] the man
|5315| [nephesh] a soul.
|2416| [chay] living

Genesis 2:7 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
7. Wayiytser Yahwey 'Elohiym 'et- ha'adam `apar min-ha'damah wayipach b'apayw nishmat chayiym wayhiy ha'adamlnepesh chayah.

Sorry, No Ruwach-Spirit, (yet) ...

 

[jeremiah1five]

In the Beginning the Ruach-Spirit of Elohim moved over the face of the waters:

Genesis 1:1-2 KJV
1. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit [HSN#7307 ruwach] of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Original Strong's Ref. #7307
Romanized ruwach
Pronounced roo'-akh
from HSN7306; wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions):
KJV--air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-])wind(-y).

Then we read of the creation of man-'adam taken from the dust of the 'adamah-soil:

Genesis 2:7 KJV
7. And the Lord God formed man [HSN#120 'adam] of the dust of the ground, [HSN#127 'adamah] and breathed [HSN#5301 naphach] into his nostrils the breath [HSN#5397 nshamah] of life; [HSN#2416 chay] and man became a living [HSN#2416 chay] soul [HSN#5315 nephesh].

Genesis 2:7 Strong's Ref. #s
7.
|3335| [yatsar] And formed
|3068| YHWH
|0430| ['elohiym] God
|0853| ['eth] -
|0120| ['adam] the man
|6083| [`aphar] {out of} dust
|4480| [min] from
|0127| ['adamah] the ground,
|5301| [naphach] and blew
|0639| ['aph] into his nostrils
|5397| [nshamah] {the} breath of
|2416| [chay] life.
|1961| [hayah] And became
|0120| ['adam] the man
|5315| [nephesh] a soul.
|2416| [chay] living

Genesis 2:7 TUA (Transliterated Unaccented Bible)
7. Wayiytser Yahwey 'Elohiym 'et- ha'adam `apar min-ha'damah wayipach b'apayw nishmat chayiym wayhiy ha'adamlnepesh chayah.

Sorry, No Ruwach-Spirit, (yet) ...

Don't capitalize it. It's not the Holy Spirit.
I don't take that breath to be the Holy Spirit as it is spirit, the animating power of God.
Without God bringing life to man (Adam) he remained a dead soul. He didn't impart the Holy Spirit, but the animating power of God that made him alive.
Thanks for stopping by.

 

[Angelina]

God did not create Adam and Eve with sin. They did not "miss the mark" until they got tempted and fell. The potential to sin was already in the garden since the serpent had already done so...you are in err :huh:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Shalom!

 

[jeremiah1five]

God did not create Adam and Eve with sin. They did not "miss the mark" until they got tempted and fell. The potential to sin was already in the garden since the serpent had already done so...you are in err :huh:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Shalom!

The Biblical definition for sin is literally, "to miss the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The glory of God.
There is only One God.
There is no such thing as half-pregnant. One either has the Spirit or they don't (Rom. 8:9).
One is either saved or they are not. There is no such thing as half-saved.
One is either holy or they are not. There is no such thing as half-holy. Adam was not holy. There is only One God.
This has nothing to do with Lucifer, the serpent, or Satan. It is about man. He was created fallen short of the glory of God for there is only ONE God.
The last Adam, Jesus Christ, proved this.

1 Corinthians 15:42
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

Sown, or planted, in corruption.

 

[Angelina]

Hey there jeremiah!

Just because you are able to define "missing the mark" as a definition of the meaning of sin...does not mean that God created Adam and Eve sinful?

1 Corinthians 15:42
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Sown, or planted, in corruption.

This verse speaks of Adam after his fall....not before. They probably would not have had a perishable body if it were not for the fall. Death reigned after they sinned. :huh: That is why Christ came. If Adam did not fall, there would be no need for a redeemer...

Peace!

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hey there jeremiah!

Just because you are able to define "missing the mark" as a definition of the meaning of sin...does not mean that God created Adam and Eve sinful?




This verse speaks of Adam after his fall....not before. :huh: That is why Christ came. If Adam did not fall, there would be no need for a redeemer...

Peace!

No, Paul is talking about when Adam was sown, or created. The word sown is a give-away. Synonyms are: planted, seeded.
And it is important to define words. It helps with understanding.
Historical-grammatical method of understanding the Scripture.

 

[Angelina]

He's talking about his flesh...it has to die. Death came after sin because death was the outcome of sin when Adam disobeyed God's command. :huh:

Shalom!

 

[jeremiah1five]

He's talking about his flesh...it has to die. Death came after sin because death was the outcome of sin when Adam disobeyed God's command. :huh:

Shalom!

Yes, the flesh was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark" of the glory of God. God is Spirit. Flesh was foreign to Him. And the mind, too, is enmity against God for it is not subject to the Law of God neither indeed can be. Paul is not talking about his flesh, he is talking about Adam's flesh. Read the whole of 1 Cor. 15.
So, think this through.

 

[Angelina]

your quote:

Yes, the flesh was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark" of the glory of God. God is Spirit. Flesh was foreign to Him. And the mind, too, is enmity against God for it is not subject to the Law of God neither indeed can be. Paul is not talking about his flesh, he is talking about Adam's flesh. Read the whole of 1 Cor. 15.So, think this through

no it wasn't...unless the very dirt God made man with was sinful, but it was not. :huh: It only became cursed after Adam sinned

Genesis 3:17
Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:“Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.

Genesis 5
8 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, “This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord has cursed.”

your quote:

1 Corinthians 15:42
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
Sown, or planted, in corruption.

This occurred after the fall... :huh:

Genesis 6
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

You have implied a position that is not upheld by scripture...I'm sorry but your theology is incorrect although interesting...

Shalom!

 

[jeremiah1five]

your quote:

no it wasn't...unless the very dirt God made man with was sinful, but it was not. :huh: It only became cursed after Adam sinned

Genesis 3:17
Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:“Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life.

Genesis 5
8 Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and had a son. 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, “This one will comfort us concerning our work and the toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord has cursed.”

your quote:

This occurred after the fall... :huh:

Genesis 6
11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

You have implied a position that is not upheld by scripture...I'm sorry but your theology is incorrect although interesting...

Shalom!

Was the dirt pure? As pure as God? Or was dirt just as the word means: dirt. Why can't you agree that there is only One God? God does not curse anything or anyone that is holy. The dirt God used to create man was not pure. It was not as pure as God. And if it was not as pure as God, then it falls short of His glory.

 

[Angelina]

Please provide scripture re: God's creation of A & E with impure dirt... ^_^

Bless ya!

 

[Axehead]

Jeremiah1five, you post incendiary missiles of heresy. I notice that you did not fair too well over in CARM.org with all of your hyper-calvinism and other strange ultra-orthodox beliefs. And that is not the only site that had problems with you. Now you come here to spread your disease. So far you are not doing too well.

I don't think anyone I have read has said it any better to you than Abe Simpson:



Really. You're going to have to tell me where you get such notions. What Church do you go to or associate? Worldwide Church of God? Armstrongism? C'mon, out with it.Hi Jere:

Whatever you come up with to avoid responding to what I say is alright with me Anyone watching our exchange is smart enough to recognize that I am talking logic and your are not addressing what I say.

Teachers of orthodox beliefs must give highly complicated, mysterious, and illogical explanations which have no continuity from doctrine to doctrine, so for anyone to believe them they have to put their faith in the teacher. However, since no one can understand something which is illogical, no teacher can understand, or explain, orthodoxy. They simply appeal to one's superstition, gullibility, and fear. All teachers within the church do not teach the same thing. They teach what one of the thousands of doctrinally disagreeing denominations taught them to teach.

Anything which can be understood can be explained, but because no one can possibly understand something which is illogical, then an explanation of something illogical will also be illogical, and will be appealing to one's superstition, gullibility, and fear. This is well known ploy in church history. Priestly control has long been established and maintained by the priestly lie that only priestly types can understand scripture, and so you must blindly believe and do what they say.
I am simply pointing out that there is nothing complicated, mysterious, or intimidating about the gospel as God revealed it to Abraham 4000 years ago. It is simply God's good news "to all the families of all nations" promise that all nations will be blessed with everlasting peace on earth. It is not the bad news promise that anyone who does not believe the orthodox gospel will suffer in hellfire for eternity. The gospel is simple, straightforward, logical, practical, believable, and the heart's desire of just about everyone in the world, including beauty contestants The gospel is not a complicated illogical formula which is only understood by those who have been officially trained by one of the thousands of doctrinally disagreeing denominations. Orthodoxy is completely illogical, and since illogical things cannot be understood by anyone, then anyone who asks you to believe illogical orthodoxy, does not himself understand what he is asking you to believe. Othodoxy only exists because of man's superstition and gullibility, while the "real gospel" of God, which is clear, logical, possible, practical, believable, and spoken by God's own words, has been shuffled to the back of the bus because it has no people controlling value for priestly type

 

[dragonfly]

Hi J1:5,

God cannot reduplicate Himself in Himself.

So are you saying you don't believe the Son of God is divine?

Hebrews 1:1 ELOHIYM, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O ELOHIYM, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


Philippians 2:Who, being in the form of ELOHIYM, thought it not robbery to be equal with EL:


2 Corinthians 3:17 Now YHVH is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of YHVH is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of YHVH, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of YHVH.



With regard to Adam possibly being created sinful, the largest error in even thinking that was possible, is that Elohiym clearly states they are making man in their own image and after their own likeness. You are suggesting there is sin in God?

Clearly we see there has been a change in the 'likeness' of Adam and his children, from the 'likeness' of Elohiym, recorded for us:

Genesis 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that ELOHIYM created man, in the likeness of ELOHIYM made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:


Read Genesis 1 and 2 again, forgetting your preconceived notion that 'dirt' is naturally full of sin or unclean, and don't even think for a moment that darkness is a reference to evil. It is just plain darkness with no spiritual overtones or undertones.

daq's points in reference to 1 Corinthians 15 are also helpful. Please place them beside Hebrews 2:14 - 17 and Romans 8:3.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Jeremiah1five, you post incendiary missiles of heresy. I notice that you did not fair too well over in CARM.org with all of your hyper-calvinism and other strange ultra-orthodox beliefs. And that is not the only site that had problems with you. Now you come here to spread your disease. So far you are not doing too well.

I don't think anyone I have read has said it any better to you than Abe Simpson:



Really. You're going to have to tell me where you get such notions. What Church do you go to or associate? Worldwide Church of God? Armstrongism? C'mon, out with it.Hi Jere:

Whatever you come up with to avoid responding to what I say is alright with me Anyone watching our exchange is smart enough to recognize that I am talking logic and your are not addressing what I say.

Teachers of orthodox beliefs must give highly complicated, mysterious, and illogical explanations which have no continuity from doctrine to doctrine, so for anyone to believe them they have to put their faith in the teacher. However, since no one can understand something which is illogical, no teacher can understand, or explain, orthodoxy. They simply appeal to one's superstition, gullibility, and fear. All teachers within the church do not teach the same thing. They teach what one of the thousands of doctrinally disagreeing denominations taught them to teach.

Anything which can be understood can be explained, but because no one can possibly understand something which is illogical, then an explanation of something illogical will also be illogical, and will be appealing to one's superstition, gullibility, and fear. This is well known ploy in church history. Priestly control has long been established and maintained by the priestly lie that only priestly types can understand scripture, and so you must blindly believe and do what they say.
I am simply pointing out that there is nothing complicated, mysterious, or intimidating about the gospel as God revealed it to Abraham 4000 years ago. It is simply God's good news "to all the families of all nations" promise that all nations will be blessed with everlasting peace on earth. It is not the bad news promise that anyone who does not believe the orthodox gospel will suffer in hellfire for eternity. The gospel is simple, straightforward, logical, practical, believable, and the heart's desire of just about everyone in the world, including beauty contestants The gospel is not a complicated illogical formula which is only understood by those who have been officially trained by one of the thousands of doctrinally disagreeing denominations. Orthodoxy is completely illogical, and since illogical things cannot be understood by anyone, then anyone who asks you to believe illogical orthodoxy, does not himself understand what he is asking you to believe. Othodoxy only exists because of man's superstition and gullibility, while the "real gospel" of God, which is clear, logical, possible, practical, believable, and spoken by God's own words, has been shuffled to the back of the bus because it has no people controlling value for priestly type

Abe Simpson did not say that. He copied it off from someone else, someone more intelligent and he plagiarized.

By the way, I am not a Calvinist. I have never read nor studied Calvinism.

And just because you don't understand does not make me wrong. God opens the eye and closes the eye to make people blind to His truth. Maybe your eye is closed to His truth. We all have our gifts. We all have our strengths. On the subjects I post is subject matter I have spent time studying and others have sharpened me, and they are my strengths, but others have not been able to withstand the truth of the Word of God in me. God has given me these subjects. God has given me this understanding. I don't post supposition or ask too many questions. Very rarely. I do what Martin Luther did. I nail them to the posts of the door of the Wittenberg church. Just because YOU don't understand does not make me wrong. What are you going to do? Poison peoples minds against me? Lead a mindless mob against me? I am a born again Biblical Christian. I have been saved since the day of my conversion going on 36 years this July 7. I have spoken in tongues. Christ is in me. It's called Union with Christ. The doctrine is in the Bible, so be careful what you do to me, because you will also be doing it to Christ.
I post the Word of God and I give my understanding. If you want to refute what I say then come with the Word of God or don't come at all. But your attitude speaks to me of the spirit of the people in Israel who did not and would not hear what God may have been speaking to them through His prophets and so instead of responding to what was said by the Lord's prophets they shut their ears and ran against His prophets and killed them all. And the same is happening in the Church. The same spirit exists in the Church. And it is pride and ignorance that is the cause.

If you want to be ignorant, then stay ignorant. If you have issue with me then invoke Matthew 18:15 and come at me straight. But don't bypass the Lord's instruction and then turn to accuse me of things that is only your lack of knowledge of knowing such things of the Word of God. I am what I am. If you want you can take it to the Lord and commune in your heart and in your prayers about me to Him. But don't hate Christ in me because you lack Biblical knowledge of the things I post. Why don't you try applying yourself and ask questions. Maybe you will be edified. And the word "edify" is the Greek word that comes from the architecture word for build or building. He takes His kids from "glory to glory" brick by brick. And if your foundation is wrong or in error, the you should question your structure as to whether or not it has been built by the Spirit of TRUTH, or the spirit of error. The Lord does not build upon a structure of error that is already in place. He must first knock it down and destroy it. He did it with Israel and He does it with His Church.
You must believe that if a prophet is to be received he must be widely accepted by the people. I'm sorry, Axehead. I am not that guy.
Let the persecution begin. You can lead it.
jeremiah1five.