Why I can't recommend Pentecostal Holiness

[rockytopva]

I remember the old Pentecostal Holiness church...

1. Salvation - As easy as asking the Lord Jesus into ones heart
2. Sanctification - When the Lord Jesus was born into the heart. If the experience was not there we would tell you to come back tomorrow night, and smile a little as we said it.
3. Holy Spirit - If a message in tongues was given out they would wait for an interpretation. If none was given someone was considered disobedient. None of this, however, had anything to do with salvation.
4. Divine Healing - Would take time to anoint people with oil and pray prayers of faith.
5. Altar service - People would take time to pray at the altar after the sermon.
6. Revival - It was a conference rule that we had at least so many revivals in a year, and they would report to conference the results. Our pastor would take time to invite wonderful evangelists and we would have wonderful times in revival.
7. Doctrine - I have no problems with Pentecostal Holiness doctrine and the results in our church was many saintly gentleman and ladies, both in spirit and in appearance.

I have no problem with Pentecostal Holiness doctrine and the the picture below is our church pictured around 50 years ago was a wonderful place and I am still a member there. But... The Spirit simply is not there anymore. In which case, even though I like the doctrine, I cannot recommend the church because it is no longer a place to grow in the Christian faith.

Our church remained a wonderful place until just a few years ago when our pastor retired. I remain worried that we live in a time in which the doctrine may be correct... But the Spirit simply is not there. Here is a video of just a few years ago when our old pastor held wonderful service....

 

[Hidden In Him]

I remember the old Pentecostal Holiness church...

1. Salvation - As easy as asking the Lord Jesus into ones heart
2. Sanctification - When the Lord Jesus was born into the heart. If the experience was not there we would tell you to come back tomorrow night, and smile a little as we said it.
3. Holy Spirit - If a message in tongues was given out they would wait for an interpretation. If none was given someone was considered disobedient. None of this, however, had anything to do with salvation.
4. Divine Healing - Would take time to anoint people with oil and pray prayers of faith.
5. Altar service - People would take time to pray at the altar after the sermon.
6. Revival - It was a conference rule that we had at least so many revivals in a year, and they would report to conference the results. Our pastor would take time to invite wonderful evangelists and we would have wonderful times in revival.
7. Doctrine - I have no problems with Pentecostal Holiness doctrine and the results in our church was many saintly gentleman and ladies, both in spirit and in appearance.

I have no problem with Pentecostal Holiness doctrine and the the picture below is our church pictured around 50 years ago was a wonderful place and I am still a member there. But... The Spirit simply is not there anymore. In which case, even though I like the doctrine, I cannot recommend the church because it is no longer a place to grow in the Christian faith.

Our church remained a wonderful place until just a few years ago when our pastor retired. I remain worried that we live in a time in which the doctrine may be correct... But the Spirit simply is not there. Here is a video of just a few years ago when our old pastor held wonderful service....

Well Rockytop, I'm sad to hear this for you, but I'm not surprised. I stopped identifying as Assembly of God more than 30 years ago, in spite of being powerfully baptized in the Holy Spirit through their campus outreach ministry and being a member of an AoG church for a few years. Seems it's the pattern that nearly all Pentecostal denominations have followed. I remember reading a book called "Quitting Church" in which the religion editor for the Washington Times when into great detail about just how much Charismatic churches have changed since the 70s, and how most of the people her age can't even recognize Pentecostalism now. I remember how different things were back even in the 80s myself.

Looks like yours was just the last of the dinosaurs to fall, but be encouraged. The Spirit has prophesied that although the church as a whole is going to continue to weaken spiritually over what will likely be the next few decades, a time when the Spirit is poured out more powerfully than ever before is coming, after the superficial church is judged and the current church leadership is removed.

God bless, and keep your eyes on Him, and on what is positive.
- H

 

[Pathfinder7]

To:OP/rockytopva
---
"..even though, I like the doctrine.."
"..The Spirit simply is not there anymore.."
- Good point.
----
The Move of God/Movement changes..
- From original vision, commitment, fervor etc..
- It becomes another establishment..in Christian history.
---
Examples:
Methodist Revival/Movement
---
Pentecostal Movement
- Pentecostal Holiness was influenced by the Pentecostal Movement.
- During the early 20th century.

 

[rockytopva]

I was brought up GARBC Baptist and firmly believed all that Pentecostal stuff was of the devil. Until I came down to Virginia and stayed the summer with my grandmother. Pictured below is farmer I would work for in the hay field that year... Dallas would shout at work, shout in the hay field, and shout in church. He would also speak in tongues and run the aisles. He and his wife would operate a dairy farm and he would also work at the local ammunition plant. A very large soul his shouting would ring through the building. In the altar services he would kneel behind me in prayer and tears would roll off his cheek and onto my shoulders. A wonderfully large soul. Along with Dallas there were many others like him who would let the praises roll during church service. During the altar service old Evans Linkous used to weep like a baby. And if he were to look back to catch the amazed look in my eye he would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" And point to all the souls being blessed around the altar. After I experienced these things for myself the people would make a fuss, or in the words of the Apostle Paul, glorify God in me.

One day, after a beautiful autumnal week of beautiful Virginia fall and revival I lay on my bed with open door, listening to the Katydids sing their praises to God, reading Run Baby Run, with fireflies lighting up the mountain as they would fly, and heard the Spirit ask... "Put the book down" and then continue, "Where is all that hatred, strife, and bad feeling?" In which examining my eternal man there was nothing there but sheer beauty. I thought to myself... Oh my! I got exactly what those folks got!

And in the words of George Clark Rankin, "It was the third Sunday in September, 1866 (in my case much later), and those Church vows became a living principle in my heart and life. During these forty-five long years, with their alternations of sunshine and shadow, daylight and darkness, success and failure, rejoicing and weeping, fears within and fightings without, I have never ceased to thank God for that autumnal day in the long ago when my name was registered in the Lamb's Book of Life." - The Life of George Clark Rankin

 

[Angelina]

Lovely words from Mr Rankin. Sweet as the fields of wild flowers in summer.

 

[rockytopva]

So... After experiencing all those wonderful things Pentecostal Holiness why am I not promoting it? The reason being is that I have learned that both evil and good spiritually can befall us under the same church doctrine. And generations later, there are different things that are experienced with different generations. It is important that we stand out as saintlike ladies and gentleman to those of us who profess to be Spirit filled Christians. Which in my denomination is not always the case. Even to the extent that members can leave the sanctified environment and do things actually illegal and end up behind bars.

 

[Angelina]

I can recall having a similar conversation with one of my Spiritual fathers. I asked him why he is still a member of a church that he was attending when they appeared to be sprirtually dying in the sense of controlling when the Holy Spirit was able to move in their church service or not. I found that they were more interested in following the programs they had created rather than being distrupted by movement of the Holy Spirit ....

My old and very wise friend said that he was willing to stay in this body of Christ to help bring up those who are struggling for the sake of their eternal salvation and for the sake of being a light in a very dark world.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I can recall having a similar conversation with one of my Spiritual fathers. I asked him why he is still a member of a church that he was attending when they appeared to be sprirtually dying in the sense of controlling when the Holy Spirit was able to move in their church service or not. I found that they were more interested in following the programs they had created rather than being distrupted by movement of the Holy Spirit ....

My old and very wise friend said that he was willing to stay in this body of Christ to help bring up those who are struggling for the sake of their eternal salvation and for the sake of being a light in a very dark world.

The first time I attended my church I now attend I was grieved over the lack of the presence of the Holy Spirit in it...I would cry through service and not understand why...(I thought is was more my conviction in my heart of my weaknesses)...after a few visits I quit going...then my daughter would invite me to a special play the kids were doing and I would go because my grandsons were in the play.
Then I would attend again....and grieve and quit.
This went on a few times then one night the Holy Spirit said I put you there to be a light in the darkness...I didn't put you there solely for you to be blessed and fed but that you would be my vessel to operate through and for others to begin to open up willingly to be vessels as well...
So this was what happened....the Holy Spirit began moving...first in one then another and then another...
The youth caught on fire!
I believe the church has neglected our youth in training them how to operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit...there is no mentoring, no discipling...and if we don't train our young then as adults they are powerless in the world.

 

[amadeus]

Where is the Spirit, if not in us in our obedience to Him?

 

[Wynona]

I am in a Church of God now. I'm glad I found this thread.
@rockytopva is there a church you do recommend?

My husband and I joined our church because we felt the Spirit there. But sometimes we wonder if the denomination as a whole is in trouble.

 

[Angelina]

Where is the Spirit, if not in us in our obedience to Him?

Glory!

 

[L.A.M.B.]

 

[TLHKAJ]

My main issue with "holiness" churches is that they're are very prone to elevating their works above the blood of Jesus as the source of salvation. (Been there.) And I do believe in living a life that pleases Him. I just don't want to be one of those who say, "Lord, didn't I do all these works in Your name?" ...and bc I trusted in my own works and not Christ, He would say, "Depart from me ...I never knew you." I want to be sure that my trust is in Him, and not my own "righteousness."

 

[amigo de christo]

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That sounds exactly like what another man once said .
They didnt get up on TV and beg for money , but i tell ya what they did do , THEY TURNED the WORLD UPSIDE down .
Many today just love money . Not the lambs . WE LOVE THE GLORIOUS LORD .

 

[amigo de christo]

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There is a very old saying , i mean over a thousand years old .
It goes something like this .
Two bishops were walking along and one says to the other , HEY we sure cant say like peter
and john to the lame man that silver and gold have we none .
And the other says , Yeah but neither can we say Get up and walk either . The love of money kills .

 

[amadeus]

My main issue with "holiness" churches is that they're are very prone to elevating their works above the blood of Jesus as the source of salvation. (Been there.) And I do believe in living a life that pleases Him. I just don't want to be one of those who say, "Lord, didn't I do all these works in Your name?" ...and bc I trusted in my own works and not Christ, He would say, "Depart from me ...I never knew you." I want to be sure that my trust is in Him, and not my own "righteousness."

You speak of the works extreme that is indeed in error. Is there not also the other extreme which is just as bad? The only right Way is God's...
Jesus prayed thusly:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21

Was Jesus a righteous man praying fervently?

"... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

How much?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

We need to STOP and take account of where we are in the Lord!

Is my walk PERSONAL or CORPORATE?
Do I believe God or man?
Do I seek to be more like him laying aside my own wants?
Do I study and pray enough?
Do I care about the souls of others?
Am I walking in submission and obedience?

There is ALWAYS room for us to walk closer to God and further from self and sin!

 

[TLHKAJ]

You speak of the works extreme that is indeed in error. Is there not also the other extreme which is just as bad? The only right Way is God's...
Jesus prayed thusly:

"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." John 17:20-21

Was Jesus a righteous man praying fervently?

"... The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." James 5:16

How much?

Absolutely. Grace isn't a license to sin. And I wasn't implying it was.

 

[TLHKAJ]

See, I need to share this and some people won't like it. But my husband and I were part of a church for 13 years in the beginning years of our marriage. This pastor was formerly Assembly of God. Then he pulled out and created his own independent denomination. He preached "holiness" and everyone was afraid to even breathe wrong or (his version of) God would strike you dead.

Hebrews 10:25
[25]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.


This verse was quoted almost every service or meeting. It meant if you miss one service (or meeting, etc), or if you were late or sick, or even needed to be elsewhere, you were sinning and in danger of hell.

1 Chronicles 16:22
[22]Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
Psalm 105:15
[15]Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.

This one meant you'd better not correct (or even voice it) when you see pastor or one of his chosens in a fault. He could do no wrong, and was above fault, above accountability. He was in effect "god."

So they used scripture as a license to get away with tons of control... basically, they controlled your whole life... what you did with your money, when (or if) you visit family, when (or if) you visit another church (or which ones you could visit), how you clean your car or your house, what you wear or don't wear, etc, etc, etc......etc! Oh, and if you leave the church and move elsewhere ....oftentimes, you would be the discussion topic of a "sermon" where pastor airs all your dirty laundry (greatly embellished) and condemns you to judgment and hell, so that everyone knows to shun you should they see you in public. (And some of those people did die in "car accidents" ...proving this man to be a true "prophet." And everyone was afraid of him and "his angels" or as he would called them "the angels of this ministry.")

There wasn't place given to Holy Spirit conviction because they had their own set of "convictions" you must follow in order to be saved ...so much for just preaching the Word and letting each person work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. One should be hearing from Holy Spirit and the Word and encouraged to grow in their relationship with Christ, rather than replacing a man (or select men) for Holy Spirit.

Those who met their criteria were elevated and praised ...while others were condemned and pushed down. Oftentimes, you didn't have to actually miss their mark to be selected as a black sheep. Black sheeps just had no chance. And I was one... a bad mother because I didn't leave my babies in the nursery with people who weren't going to care for my babies like I would. I either sat in the nursery with my babies (and there was a monitor so we could see and hear the service), or I would take my babies into the service, and if they even began to cry, I'd just take them out and tend to them ...a dirty diaper, or they were hungry, etc.

This was looked down on ....bc I didn't "break their spirits" from birth. Some mothers who were praised from the pulpit because their 3 and 4 month olds would be silent through a 2 hour sermon ....accomplished this by pinching and spanking their infants if they even whimpered. And those babies weren't taken to the nursery if they were hungry and given mama's milk. They were given onion water or potato water...or just plain water... in a bottle. Ridiculous!! So children and babies with bruises was considered normal. NO!! It's not normal!!!!

I was the one who finally decided to step over my husband's "authority" and say I didn't want to go back there, nor was I taking our children back. I made that decision on Mother's Day of 2007. My children already hated being there. My husband worked a lot and didn't have to attend but one day a week. The children and I had to attend something every single day ....school, teaching (job without pay), prayer meetings (where you pray, but also give "prayer requests" that were more like gossip, and where pastor can instruct you how to live), weekly Bible class, and 4 services a week. You barely had time to be home and be a family, cook and clean, get homework done, and sleep, then get up early to do it all over again.

So I told my husband that year, that for Mother's Day, I didn't want to go to church. I wanted to go hike a mountain together (with the kids) with a picnic and our Bibles ...and my request was that he read to us at the top of the mountain. (We did all of that except he didn't read to us.)

I told my husband that I didn't want to go back to that church, and wasn't taking our children back. His fear of them and their "god" fed an anger and rage toward us that we hadn't seen before. Our home was a war zone. At times, I believed he would k.ll me, he was so angry. And he would force the kids to go back on Sundays and the kids would be told that I had "devil problems" by their dad and by the pastor. (They told me.) Before too long, he just quit taking the kids and quit going bc he couldn't take their treatment. And that, of course, was my fault.

The children could never do anything right. Chores were never good enough. So I began doing everything for them ...so they wouldn't be in trouble for not being perfect. I wore myself thin!! I'd stay up until I heard his car drive up from work at 1am, then run and jump in the bed and pretend to be asleep so I wouldn't be caught off guard if he tried to k.ll me. My youngest son would sneak into the master bedroom while I was asleep and lay his body over mine. When asked why he was doing that he said that he felt like someone would try to k.ll me, but if he was there, maybe they wouldn't do it.

My husband was so fearful of them that if they showed up in our yard, he would hide and send me out.

We were stalked, harassed, threatened ...in person and online. And on Mother's Day of 2009 (the two-year anniversary of my decision to leave), my children and I were abducted (by them), drugged and sexually assaulted/tortured inside our own barn. Many doctor appointments followed. None of us remembered consciously who did it. But my children began having nightmares about the pastor and his men ...in our barn ...or in the woods behind our house doing ritualistic things. Medical examinations confirmed sexual assault. And I was ....pregnant.

That is probably enough.

But all this to say ....I learned through that experience how to tell the difference between man's control, and true Holy Spirit conviction. I am determined to serve no other "god." And if I am in a church where man is being lifted up, I'm not staying.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Dear Sister he stepped out of God into himself and what he had was a cult. Usually cults and their leaders have backgrounds in church affiliations first of some kind. That is why they are so good at twisting the word.

You did right by standing your ground for God. Remember told the ppl ,you can serve the gods of the land or choose to serve God!
As for me and my house,we will serve the Lord!