Why I hate the Bible... Or so they say?

[Aunty Jane]

Some interesting points raised here…..

The prophets were inspired. Sometimes they were edited/redacted after the fact, and the editors/redactors don't seem to have been inspired or inerrant. Oops.

Some books aren't written by prophets. They aren't inspired and don't claim to be... except for one verse in 2nd Timothy that the church has badly wrested from its original meaning.

You know what they call it when a doctrine is built on a single controversial verse without corroboration elsewhere in Scripture?

Spoiler

Theology

The question raised with this line of thinking is….can we trust that what we accept today as God’s word…actually is?
Can the average person discern what is “theocratic” from what is called “theology”….especially if they are claiming to be one and the same?

If God had his word recorded in Jesus’ day, and he and his apostles taught and quoted from the only “inspired Scripture” in existence at that time….and because Greek was the common language, the Greek Septuagint was used to bring Gentile believers to Christ……can we take for granted that God not only inspired the contents of the Bible, but also preserved its meaning intact, down through the centuries to our day….in spite of all the things you have mentioned?

At what point do we doubt what it teaches? And if some of it is not God’s word, then who discerns what is? Can we just throw it all away and rely on our own thinking? Satan would love that!

Some have actually done that, and end up seeing themselves as the exclusive mouthpiece of God….we know that God has never operated that way. The last prophet inspired by God, was his beloved son.

I don't find it helpful to discuss "original manuscripts." We don't have them.

This is true, but as they discovered with the Dead Sea Scrolls….the preservation was incredibly accutate when compared with manuscripts that were written later…..
It is the Bible’s message and overall theme that is preserved, regardless of the age or the translation.

If it is God’s word…then all of it is…..if it’s not, then nothing it contains has more than superficial value.
Prophesy was merely the ramblings of those who were mentally disturbed.

There's no such thing as a perfect translation. Each language codifies parts of the culture to which it belongs. You can translate base meaning from one language to another, but cultural nuances simply don't translate.

Well, they do if there is consistency with the rest of what is written. No one can use one isolated verse to imply a doctrine….doctrine is set in concrete…not mud….and has to be supported by the rest of Scripture.

Some languages have types of words that others don't. For instance, Biblical Greek has perfect participles, and a bunch of different ways to case them. English doesn't have those things, and instead uses additional "helping" words to try to achieve the same meaning. It doesn't always work.

But without them, none of it would work. Phrasing is a problem, but again it is the message, not the translated words that make the difference.
Would God provide an instruction manual where the instructions mean different things in different languages. Why would he? Who is it that likes to create confusion? Not God.

Biblical Hebrew is a mess. Every word contains letters that are not written out, and the reader/translator is expected to imply the correct letters. Depending on what letters you imply, you could end up with a dozen different meanings. There are also no spaces between words, so the reader/translator also needs to figure out where each words starts and stops. Finally, there are places where the authors deliberately use this ambiguity about what each word means to give multiple meanings. It's completely impossible to translate this - the translator is forced to pick a single meaning for the word when he translates.

And this is perhaps where Interlinear translations are helpful…..see how the translators conveyed the message in the words, not just the words themselves.…and how these words are translated in other passages, to highlight more than one meaning.

I am no scholar, but I do love to do research, especially in how words and phrases are translated from original languages. It allows me to see where things are fudged to obscure the truth, and to prop up doctrines that Christ never taught. These have been around so long that few people even today, question their validity.

 

[Wick Stick]

The question raised with this line of thinking is….can we trust that what we accept today as God’s word…actually is?

Not everything in every book is God's direct words. If a book says, "God delivered this message to me," then I take it as inspired. If it says, "here's a list of rulers over Israel that I got from a history book," then I don't.

It's not actually complicated to figure out what is inspired and what is not. You don't need a theology degree. You just believe what each book says about itself.

If God had his word recorded in Jesus’ day, and he and his apostles taught and quoted from the only “inspired Scripture” in existence at that time…

Great point. I've found it instructive to look at exactly what Jesus and His apostles quoted as Scripture.

I did a very long word study and found 207 places where the New Testament quotes Old Testament prophets. It quotes non-prophets only 15 times that I found.

That huge discrepancy has led me to believe that Jesus and the Apostles viewed the words of the prophets as more important than those who weren't prophets. They seem to view them as having authority that the others don't.

can we take for granted that God not only inspired the contents of the Bible, but also preserved its meaning intact, down through the centuries to our day….in spite of all the things you have mentioned?

Taking things for granted is usually wrong. We have a long history of scholarship on this subject. We have a track record showing that the Bible hasn't changed much since the 4th century BC. Where things have changed, we mostly know what changed.

If it is God’s word…then all of it is…..if it’s not, then nothing it contains has more than superficial value.

The all-or-nothing argument doesn't really work logically. It isn't one book, it's 66. Each book deserves to be considered separately. If one is found credible, that doesn't make the others better. If one is found to have errors, that doesn't mean the others do.

Some books are just better than others. Deuteronomy is more important than Ruth. The prophets are a cut above the rest.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It's not actually complicated to figure out what is inspired and what is not. You don't need a theology degree. You just believe what each book says about itself.

It has to be complicated if so many fail to concur with the interpretation of others….who can say “I know the truth” when so many others are saying the same thing?

How did Jesus tell us to judge the difference? He said “by their fruits” we would know his true disciples….these would be standing out from others, more because of what they won’t do, as opposed to what they will. Actions speak lounder than words.

For example, if Jesus told us to be “no part of the world”….and James said that “friendship with the world is enmity with God”….(James 4:4) can we be “friends with this world” and still retain God’s friendship?

Where is the line of demarcation? How can you tell if you’ve overstepped?

That huge discrepancy has led me to believe that Jesus and the Apostles viewed the words of the prophets as more important than those who weren't prophets. They seem to view them as having authority that the others don't.

The Law and the Prophets set down so much information about what God requires of his worshippers….and the bad example of God’s people teach us more about God than anything their fleeting good examples ever did.….yet, it seems that most even today are requiring something from God whilst giving him little in return.

What is it that God’s children can give to God that he cannot give to himself?

We have a long history of scholarship on this subject. We have a track record showing that the Bible hasn't changed much since the 4th century BC. Where things have changed, we mostly know what changed.

And that change is clearly demonstrated in the failure of the Jewish people to accept Jesus as Messiah…..and then once Christianity had survived till the end of the first century, we see that the rot set in very early, just as Jesus said it would……”while men were sleeping”….the devil sowed his counterfeit seeds….this spiritual drowsiness, took hold once the apostles (who exercised a restraining influence) were no longer on the scene…..the restraint was gone, and Christianity went down the same track as Judaism did.
When Jesus returns as judge, what will he see for the most part? Matt 7:21-23 gives us an idea of why “few” will be found on the road to life. (Matt 7:13-14)

 

[Wick Stick]

It has to be complicated if so many fail to concur with the interpretation of others….who can say “I know the truth” when so many others are saying the same thing?

How did Jesus tell us to judge the difference? He said “by their fruits” we would know his true disciples….these would be standing out from others, more because of what they won’t do, as opposed to what they will. Actions speak lounder than words.

For example, if Jesus told us to be “no part of the world”….and James said that “friendship with the world is enmity with God”….(James 4:4) can we be “friends with this world” and still retain God’s friendship?

Where is the line of demarcation? How can you tell if you’ve overstepped?

Most people just follow their pastor, or their catechism. That isn't a problem; it's intended. But if you want to know for yourself, you have to study for yourself. "Study to show thyself approved."

The Law and the Prophets set down so much information about what God requires of his worshippers….and the bad example of God’s people teach us more about God than anything their fleeting good examples ever did.….yet, it seems that most even today are requiring something from God whilst giving him little in return.

What is it that God’s children can give to God that he cannot give to himself?

A body. Hands and feet to do work here in the world. "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular"

And that change is clearly demonstrated in the failure of the Jewish people to accept Jesus as Messiah…..and then once Christianity had survived till the end of the first century, we see that the rot set in very early, just as Jesus said it would……”while men were sleeping”….the devil sowed his counterfeit seeds….this spiritual drowsiness, took hold once the apostles (who exercised a restraining influence) were no longer on the scene…..the restraint was gone, and Christianity went down the same track as Judaism did.

I was talking about changes to the Bible itself. Things like -

• The 2nd half of Daniel is a separate book from the 1st half. Somebody edited them together.
• Genesis was edited together out of multiple ancient books. They had always been Scripture, but they weren't always together, or in chronological order.
• Job's 4th friend, Elihu, and his speech are late additions to that book.
• The ages of the antediluvian patriarchs have all been changed several times.