BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I assume you refer to the 'third manuscript' of Justin Martyr's Apology.
I seem to remember reading something about the dubious nature of that reference.
.
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I assume you refer to the 'third manuscript' of Justin Martyr's Apology.
<History does not shift like a light switch>, but the Grailhunter, thinking he is shifting his searchlight across history, lost perception and discernment between past and present and started shaking like a reed in the winds of time. Take the above, the Gailhunter's three paragraphs, just to show,
According to the Grailhunter <because they were still in the Old Covenant ... observing the Sabbath during Christ’s ministry ... there is no surprise there.> Astounding revelation, <in the Old Covenant ... during Christ’s ministry>! If <because they were still in the Old Covenant> and they still were <with God>, one wonders what difference it would make whether one is still in the Old or still in the New Covenant? Might not both supposed <covenants>, have received the SAME BENIFITS since both were <during Christ’s ministry> and both supposed Covenants <were when the Sabbath was the only holy day of the week>, and both supposed Covenants were BEFORE ... <sometime in the 1st century [Sic.] there was a transitional period that shifted (from the Sabbath) to the Lord’s day on Sunday>. --- WHAT A MESS!
So, according to Grailhunter, <sometime in the 1st century that shifted to the Lord’s day on Sunday, particularly when the Christian ministry shifted to the Gentiles and Jewish-Christian sect died out.>
Now, <There was in fact a transitional period were [Sic. <where> or <when>] the Sabbath was the only holy day of the week, but sometime in the 1st century that shifted to the Lord’s day on Sunday,> says the Grailhunter.
BUT, for absolutely sure was <there> no <transitional period ... sometime in the 1st century that shifted to the Lord’s day on Sunday>, nor, for absolutely sure, was <there> any <period particularly when (or <where>) sometime in the 1st century the Christian ministry shifted to the Gentiles and the Jewish-Christian sect died out.> We all know that, for historical fact. So what here (and nowhere later) must be lifted out and put in proper perspective, is the Grailhunter's own presumed, 'fact', that <There was in fact a transitional period where the Sabbath was the only holy day of the week, but sometime in the 1st century that shifted to the Lord’s day>. Grailhunter in fact supplements his own drawn 'fact' with, stating as fact, in the <first century the Sabbath was the only holy day of the week> and therefore it, the Sabbath, had to have been the-Lord’s-Day-on-the-Sabbath-which sometime somewhere in the 1st century shifted to the Lord’s Day on SABBATH BY THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST JESUS ON IT.
That, the Jews from the nature of the case, could never have gone along with.
That is always what you do, and always do halve. In fact Sunday is the weekly holy day for Christians---Roman Catholic Christians, which for them, is the weekly holy day, which THEY sanctify, which nowhere is found in the Word of GOD, is the weekly holy day for Bible-Christians.
Absolutely! THE MASTER-LIE OF ANTICHRIST!
Now, YOU, are The Grailhunter, YOU, paste here, this thing YOU claim is <the Lord’s day on Sunday, particularly... sometime in the 1st century>. I assume you refer to the 'third manuscript' of Justin Martyr's Apology.
I challenge YOU in the Name of the Living GOD AND JUDGE OF ALL MEN and "every word from the mouth of each" : PUT THE EVIDENCE OF THIS THING WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!
<History does not shift like a light switch>, but the Grailhunter, thinking he is shifting his searchlight across history, lost perception and discernment between past and present and started shaking like a reed in the winds of time. Take the above, the Gailhunter's three paragraphs, just to show,
According to the Grailhunter <because they were still in the Old Covenant ... observing the Sabbath during Christ’s ministry ... there is no surprise there.> Astounding revelation, <in the Old Covenant ... during Christ’s ministry>! If <because they were still in the Old Covenant> and they still were <with God>, one wonders what difference it would make whether one is still in the Old or still in the New Covenant? Might not both supposed <covenants>, have received the SAME BENIFITS since both were <during Christ’s ministry> and both supposed Covenants <were when the Sabbath was the only holy day of the week>, and both supposed Covenants were BEFORE ... <sometime in the 1st century [Sic.] there was a transitional period that shifted (from the Sabbath) to the Lord’s day on Sunday>. --- WHAT A MESS!
So, according to Grailhunter, <sometime in the 1st century that shifted to the Lord’s day on Sunday, particularly when the Christian ministry shifted to the Gentiles and Jewish-Christian sect died out.>
Now, <There was in fact a transitional period were [Sic. <where> or <when>] the Sabbath was the only holy day of the week, but sometime in the 1st century that shifted to the Lord’s day on Sunday,> says the Grailhunter.
BUT, for absolutely sure was <there> no <transitional period ... sometime in the 1st century that shifted to the Lord’s day on Sunday>, nor, for absolutely sure, was <there> any <period particularly when (or <where>) sometime in the 1st century the Christian ministry shifted to the Gentiles and the Jewish-Christian sect died out.> We all know that, for historical fact. So what here (and nowhere later) must be lifted out and put in proper perspective, is the Grailhunter's own presumed, 'fact', that <There was in fact a transitional period where the Sabbath was the only holy day of the week, but sometime in the 1st century that shifted to the Lord’s day>. Grailhunter in fact supplements his own drawn 'fact' with, stating as fact, in the <first century the Sabbath was the only holy day of the week> and therefore it, the Sabbath, had to have been the-Lord’s-Day-on-the-Sabbath-which sometime somewhere in the 1st century shifted to the Lord’s Day on SABBATH BY THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST JESUS ON IT.
That, the Jews from the nature of the case, could never have gone along with.
I seem to remember reading something about the dubious nature of that reference.
.
The whole "shift" business makes me wonder what this verse is even supposed to have meant:
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
I challenged you about the manuscript of Justin Martyr containing the word 'Sunday' which Christians ALLEGEDLY worshiped on, not about the manuscripts that ALLEGEDLY contain 'the Lord's', _'day'_ which Christians ALLEGEDLY worshiped on, the 'Teaching' and Ignatius' 'Letter to the Magnesians' ET AL. I'll keep on waiting because my challenge still stands unchallenged.Like I said the Lord’s Day is not in the scriptures because the New Testament only records the first 65 years of Christianity. But surviving early Christian writings discuss the Lord’s Day.
But every Lord’s day do ye gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure.
(Didache Chapter XIV.11 —Christian Assembly on the Lord’s Day. 14 [70 AD]).
I challenged you about the manuscript of Justin Martyr containing the word 'Sunday' which Christians ALLEGEDLY worshiped on, not about the manuscripts that ALLEGEDLY contain 'the Lord's', _'day'_ which Christians ALLEGEDLY worshiped on, the 'Teaching' and Ignatius' 'Letter to the Magnesians' ET AL. I'll keep on waiting because my challenge still stands unchallenged.
By the way, I'm inviting the Seventh day Adventists as well to answer my challenge.
That's it!Not sure of what your getting at or your interest in Justin Martyr but here it is.
By the mid-2nd century, Justin Martyr wrote in his apologies about the cessation of Sabbath observance and the celebration of the first day of the week (not as a day of rest, but as a day for gathering to worship):
And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things, Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying, Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And those who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows, and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds, and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world, and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn [Saturday]; and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them those things, which we have submitted for your consideration.
That's it!
Now PLACE THAT - THIS - a photostat copy of it, of course, 'MANUSCRIPT'; THAT IS WHAT I AM CHALLENGING YOU TO DO. And give the place it can be viewed by anyone who might be able to go to that place and photograph THIS (alleged) existing, archived, physical PIECE OF 'paper' it is WRITTEN ON : IN HAND WRITING of whatever scribe or something, or better still, IN HAND WRITING of the Justin who lived in the first and second centuries CE AND WROTE IT. Do this, please.
Like the original books of the Bible, people would love to have the originals….it is just something that does not happen.
When you are dealing with history it is all about confidence levels.Ja, people would love to have the originals….it is just something that does not happen.
Correct! But at least one 'manuscript' copy of 'the originals' happened, and that, still exists. There is this one case, where NO 'copies' exist. But lo! The 'original' EXISTS, IS REAL, HAPPENED, the one in hand - because it was FAKED and is a HOAX GOING ON -- your Justin Sunday - Saturday 'manuscript' IN THE VATICAN ARCHIVES -- WHERE ELSE!?
When you are dealing with history it is all about confidence levels.
I am not sure what your concern with Justin’s manuscripts are but as far as confidence levels he was not contradicting anything that history or the other early writers where not confirming.
Sunday was the Lord’s Day from the even before the end of the 1st century. If you are thinking that Emperor Constantine changed the Christian day of worship to Sunday that is totally false. Christ set that when He resurrected on Sunday.
I am not a SDA so I am not confused about Constantine. Don't run away. Truth is, nothing is wrong with Justin Martyr's real manuscripts. I am also not confused LIKE YOU ARE, about that. I am challenging you and anyone to proof the Apology's THIRD 'manuscript', not the two existing ones. Capito?
Though I enjoy going to the Adventist church on Saturday, and a church that is known for going through the Bible, book by book on Sundays, neither is because of law, but because I enjoy fellowship. When we became free from the law, it was when we became free from sin (the need for the law). The 4th commandment was the sign of the first covenant that could only be kept the way it was written by the letter. When Jesus came and died, he shed His blood that cleansed us from all unrighteousness. So rightly so, the new sign of the new covenant represented said blood, the Cup of the New Covenant.All you and Grailhunter and the rest of the Antinomian crowd need do to convince us that Christians are indeed free from the "old law" that says "thou shalt have no other gods before Me" is simply publicly state we may worship Satan. It's really that simple.
(The reason you all refuse to say it is because you know full well you don't really believe we're free, but you have no choice to continue to insist we are to get around keeping the weekly Sabbath holy as specified.)
Man YOU rely on this bogus early Christian writing for advocating Sunday worship. YOU HAVE NO SINGLE CASE OR REFERENCE TO A CASE OF WORSHIP ON SUNDAY BY EARLY CHRISTIANS! NONE for 1500 years none! The Antichrist FOOLED the Church up until today, and judged by your mental capacity to discern his deception, will for ever go on to FOOL (all) true believers in Jesus Christ.But I am not concerned about Justin's third manuscript....It is called not taking the bait.
But if you have a point....lets hear it.
Man YOU rely on this bogus early Christian writing for advocating Sunday worship. YOU HAVE NO SINGLE CASE OR REFERENCE TO A CASE OF WORSHIP ON SUNDAY BY EARLY CHRISTIANS! NONE for 1500 years none! The Antichrist FOOLED the Church up until today, and judged by your mental capacity to discern his deception, will for ever go on to FOOL (all) true believers in Jesus Christ.
So, is the Christian free to disregard the 1st commandment and worship Satan?Though I enjoy going to the Adventist church on Saturday, and a church that is known for going through the Bible, book by book on Sundays, neither is because of law, but because I enjoy fellowship. When we became free from the law, it was when we became free from sin (the need for the law). The 4th commandment was the sign of the first covenant that could only be kept the way it was written by the letter. When Jesus came and died, he shed His blood that cleansed us from all unrighteousness. So rightly so, the new sign of the new covenant represented said blood, the Cup of the New Covenant.
The Ten Commandments are for sinners. Christians are not sinners, but children of God. 1 John 3:1. Without the Spirit of Christ sinners must keep the letter of the law. True Christians are filled with the Spirit and abide in Christ which is the spirit of the old Sabbath law. No one seems to know what the spirit of the Sabbath is, so I just told you. Christians do not keep the letter of the law because we are no longer in the flesh but in the Spirit. Romans 7:5-7.
AGAIN: Place them here. YOU CANNOT BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY - be informed!How can you be so misinformed. There are quite a few early christian writings about the Lord's Day and Sunday....Have you not looked into this a little?