Why Jews were Made, not Born

[Stranger]

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

Reread my post (#35). I never said the Holy Spirit was not active in the Old Testament. What I said was the Church has the Holy Spirit in the Person of the resurrected Christ. This was not possible until Pentecost. (John 7:38-39)

Do you understand what I just said? We who are Christians, don't just have the Holy Spirit. "When poured out at Pentecost, He came as the Spirit of the glorified Jesus, the Spirit of the incarnate, crucified and exalted Christ, the bearer and communicator to us not of the life of God as such, but of that life as it had been interwoven into human nature in the person of Christ Jesus. " (The Spirit of Christ, Andrew Murray, Bethany Fellowship, 1979, p. 38)

This is why we have the Spirit of Christ. (Rom. 8:9)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

“He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:15–18)

Jesus is saying the Church will now be believers only.

Again, the true Israel is always believers only. The true Church is always believers only.

So, again, no. Jesus is not saying that. He said 'upon this rock I will build my Church'. What had gone before was not the Church of Jesus Christ.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Dave L.

I believe I answered your last two posts twice. But, now matter, some additional information is added.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

Again, the true Israel is always believers only. The true Church is always believers only.

So, again, no. Jesus is not saying that. He said 'upon this rock I will build my Church'. What had gone before was not the Church of Jesus Christ.

Stranger

There were always believers present in the Congregation of the Lord. = All the Jews who accepted him as he preached the gospel of the kingdom.

 

[Dave L]

Reread my post (#35). I never said the Holy Spirit was not active in the Old Testament. What I said was the Church has the Holy Spirit in the Person of the resurrected Christ. This was not possible until Pentecost. (John 7:38-39)

Do you understand what I just said? We who are Christians, don't just have the Holy Spirit. "When poured out at Pentecost, He came as the Spirit of the glorified Jesus, the Spirit of the incarnate, crucified and exalted Christ, the bearer and communicator to us not of the life of God as such, but of that life as it had been interwoven into human nature in the person of Christ Jesus. " (The Spirit of Christ, Andrew Murray, Bethany Fellowship, 1979, p. 38)

This is why we have the Spirit of Christ. (Rom. 8:9)

Stranger

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The already believing Church and new converts received the Charismatic Gifts at Pentecost.

 

[Dave L]

No, Jesus 'said' upon this rock I will build my church'. Future.

Well, the Israel of God was believers only. So? You have plenty of unbelievers in the visible Church today.

Stranger

His Church was believers only. Not a mixture of unbelievers and believers as it was in days of old.

 

[Dave L]

No, they are not.

Stranger

The dictionaries say they are.

 

[Stranger]

There were always believers present in the Congregation of the Lord. = All the Jews who accepted him as he preached the gospel of the kingdom.

Yes, and one congregation is Israel, and one is the Church, and one is between Adam and Moses, and one is the Tribulation saints.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is not the Gospel of Grace which the Church preaches.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The already believing Church and new converts received the Charismatic Gifts at Pentecost.

You simply ignored what I said and continue with methodical repetition.

The faith that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, that you are talking about, which you quoted to prove in (Gal. 5:22) is the faith of the Charismatic gifts.

There is a difference in the function of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and New Testament. Which I stated in post (#41), which you ignore.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

Yes, and one congregation is Israel, and one is the Church, and one is between Adam and Moses, and one is the Tribulation saints.

The Gospel of the Kingdom is not the Gospel of Grace which the Church preaches.

Stranger

“But none of these things move me[Paul], neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.” (Acts 20:24–25)

 

[Stranger]

His Church was believers only. Not a mixture of unbelievers and believers as it was in days of old.

If your talking about the true Church, yes. But that is the same with Israel in the Old Testament. The true Israel is made up of only believers.

The visible church today is full of non-believers.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

You simply ignored what I said and continue with methodical repetition.

The faith that is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, that you are talking about, which you quoted to prove in (Gal. 5:22) is the faith of the Charismatic gifts.

There is a difference in the function of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament and New Testament. Which I stated in post (#41), which you ignore.

Stranger

Faith is faith. OT believers had faith Hebrews 11.

 

[Stranger]

The dictionaries say they are.

The dictionaries say what are? For clarity you should repeat what was said at least.

What does the dictionary say? Give a quote and reverence.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

If your talking about the true Church, yes. But that is the same with Israel in the Old Testament. The true Israel is made up of only believers.

The visible church today is full of non-believers.

Stranger

Believers = Church = Israel = Christ' body.

 

[Dave L]

The dictionaries say what are? For clarity you should repeat what was said at least.

What does the dictionary say? Give a quote and reverence.

Stranger

DO you have any bible dictionaries? Lexicons etc.?

 

[Stranger]

Believers = Church = Israel = Christ' body.

Just because you say it doesn't make it so. Israel is not the Body of Christ. See again post (#41).

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

DO you have any bible dictionaries? Lexicons etc.?

You made the statement, you need to back it up.

Stranger

 

[Episkopos]

Faith is faith. OT believers had faith Hebrews 11.

But God has upped the ante so to speak because of grace. Where more is made possible more is required. So then we are to operate at a higher level than an OT saint. If we only do what men can do without the Spirit...then we will not measure up.

What is very evil in this time is to take an ordinary righteousness...claim it is God's level of righteousness (thereby limiting God) ...and then condemn all others as being unrighteous if they are but doing the same thing without claiming it to be God's righteousness.

IOW...if a believer helps an old lady cross the street...that is a good work. But if an unbeliever does the same....that is NOT a good work. So then we pervert good judgment in order to feel more Christian...by lowering what others do. A terrible witness. This is to bear a false witness.

Our own righteousness is as filthy rags...but what of God's righteousness? Is sin there as well? Most would say yes. Therefore iniquity has fully penetrated into the church...to the disqualification of many.

 

[Stranger]

Faith is faith. OT believers had faith Hebrews 11.

Faith is not the issue here. I never said Old Testament believers didn't have faith. We are talking about the operation of the Holy Spirit and how it worked distinct different between Israel and the Church. And the reason is because they were separate bodies of believers.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

Faith is not the issue here. I never said Old Testament believers didn't have faith. We are talking about the operation of the Holy Spirit and how it worked distinct different between Israel and the Church. And the reason is because they were separate bodies of believers.

Stranger

Not so, God has only one people in Christ.

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)