Why Jews were Made, not Born

[VictoryinJesus]

The only way of salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ. Yes. But though that is the only way of salvation does not mean that all believers are placed in the same body of the believing. Israel is one body. The saints prior to Israel, from Adam to Moses, are another body. They are not part of Israel. The Chruch, from Pentacost to the Rapture, are another body. And the Tribulation saints are another body. All place faith in some way towards Jesus Christ. But they are different bodies of believers.

Stranger

I don’t know, Stranger. The church was in moveable tents in the Old Testament, and in moveable tents(made without hands) today until they are folded up and changed into the incorruptible. Ephesians 2:15
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

One new man in what was before(the concealed-foreshadow)and what is the New Testament (the Revelation of Jesus Christ). I don’t see how you divide one new man in to three.

 

[Dave L]

No, the Church did not always exist in Israel. The Church does not exist in Israel. That a congregation of believers existed in the Old Testament did not make them the Church. It did not make them the Body and Bride of Christ. The Church is the Body of Christ which could not have come into existence until (Acts 2).

No, Israel is not made up of believing Gentiles.

As I said, you are just trying to put a different saddle on the same horse.

Stranger

Congregation of the Lord = Church of the Lord. “This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)

Congregation = 5712. עֵדָה ʿêdâh, ay-daw´; fem. of 5707 in the orig. sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (spec. a concourse, or gen. a family or crowd):—assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm. Comp. 5713.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 2, p. 85).

Church = 1577. ἐκκλησία ĕkklēsia, ek-klay-see´-ah; from a comp. of 1537 and a der. of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concr.) a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Chr. community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 26).

 

[Stranger]

I don’t know, Stranger. The church was in moveable tents in the Old Testament, and in moveable tents(made without hands) today until they are folded up and changed into the incorruptible. Ephesians 2:15
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

One new man in what was before(the concealed-foreshadow)and what is the New Testament (the Revelation of Jesus Christ). I don’t see how you divide one new man in to three.

No, you are speaking of Israel, not the Church. The Church did not begin, could not begin until (Acts 2).

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Congregation of the Lord = Church of the Lord. “This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (Acts 7:38)

Congregation = 5712. עֵדָה ʿêdâh, ay-daw´; fem. of 5707 in the orig. sense of fixture; a stated assemblage (spec. a concourse, or gen. a family or crowd):—assembly, company, congregation, multitude, people, swarm. Comp. 5713.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 2, p. 85).

Church = 1577. ἐκκλησία ĕkklēsia, ek-klay-see´-ah; from a comp. of 1537 and a der. of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concr.) a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Chr. community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 26).

The definition of a 'church' as a congregation means nothing. Yes there was a congregation of believers in the wilderness. That congregation, however was not the Body of Christ. That congregation was Israel.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

The definition of a 'church' as a congregation means nothing. Yes there was a congregation of believers in the wilderness. That congregation, however was not the Body of Christ. That congregation was Israel.

Stranger

They are one and the same.

 

[Dave L]

No, the Church did not always exist in Israel. The Church does not exist in Israel. That a congregation of believers existed in the Old Testament did not make them the Church. It did not make them the Body and Bride of Christ. The Church is the Body of Christ which could not have come into existence until (Acts 2).

No, Israel is not made up of believing Gentiles.

As I said, you are just trying to put a different saddle on the same horse.

Stranger

“It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.”This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.” (Romans 9:6–8) (NET)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29) (KJV 1900)

 

[Stranger]

They are one and the same.

No, they are not. That Spirit which indwells the believers from (Acts 2) to the Rapture is the Spirit of Christ. This makes those of that time part of His Spirit exclusively. The Body of Christ. Israel is not the Body of Christ.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

No, they are not. That Spirit which indwells the believers from (Acts 2) to the Rapture is the Spirit of Christ. This makes those of that time part of His Spirit exclusively. The Body of Christ. Israel is not the Body of Christ.

Stranger

Did Elijah have the Spirit? How about David? Job? Abel? Moses? And all listed in Hebrews 11 who were examples of faith?

 

[Stranger]

“It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel,nor are all the children Abraham’s true descendants; rather “through Isaac will your descendants be counted.”This means it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God; rather, the children of promise are counted as descendants.” (Romans 9:6–8) (NET)

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Galatians 3:16) (KJV 1900)

“And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Galatians 3:29) (KJV 1900)

We have already went over that. Repetition means nothing if you did not prove your case before. And you didn't.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Did Elijah have the Spirit? How about David? Job? Abel? Moses? And all listed in Hebrews 11 who were examples of faith?

The Holy Spirit coming upon the Old Testament saints could leave just as easily as He came. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit we have. They did not have the Spirit of Christ.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

We have already went over that. Repetition means nothing if you did not prove your case before. And you didn't.

Stranger

A church exists where two or more meet in Jesus' name. In the OT his name was YHWH.

 

[Dave L]

The Holy Spirit coming upon the Old Testament saints could leave just as easily as He came. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit we have. They did not have the Spirit of Christ.

Stranger

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. How could they not have the Holy Spirit?

 

[Stranger]

A church exists where two or more meet in Jesus' name. In the OT his name was YHWH.

Chapter and verse. Do you want me to have to look it up? of course I can. But of course you should provide the address.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

Chapter and verse. Do you want me to have to look it up? of course I can. But of course you should provide the address.

Stranger

“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18:20)


4863. συνάγω sunagō, soon-ag´-o; from 4862 and 71; to lead together, i.e. collect or convene; spec. to entertain (hospitably):—+ accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 68).

1577. ἐκκλησία ĕkklēsia, ek-klay-see´-ah; from a comp. of 1537 and a der. of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concr.) a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Chr. community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 26).

= Church where ever 2 or more gather in Jesus' name, YHWH in the OT.

 

[Stranger]

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. How could they not have the Holy Spirit?

Again, chapter and verse. As I said already. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, that we the Church have. (Ps.51:11) We have the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. (John 7:38-39) (Rom. 8:9)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

“For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” (Matthew 18:20)


4863. συνάγω sunagō, soon-ag´-o; from 4862 and 71; to lead together, i.e. collect or convene; spec. to entertain (hospitably):—+ accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 68).

1577. ἐκκλησία ĕkklēsia, ek-klay-see´-ah; from a comp. of 1537 and a der. of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concr.) a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Chr. community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):—assembly, church.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 26).

= Church where ever 2 or more gather in Jesus' name, YHWH in the OT.

Again, the Greek word for assembly or calling out does not make a body the Body of Christ. It depends on which body is being addressed. I do believe Jesus is speaking to the Church here which He stated in (Matt. 16:18) was still future. Israel had rejected Him and His attention was now to the Church which He would build. (Matt. 16:18) And yes where two or more are gathered He is there because now His Spirit will be in them.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

Again, the Greek word for assembly or calling out does not make a body the Body of Christ. It depends on which body is being addressed. I do believe Jesus is speaking to the Church here which He stated in (Matt. 16:18) was still future. Israel had rejected Him and His attention was now to the Church which He would build. (Matt. 16:18) And yes where two or more are gathered He is there because now His Spirit will be in them.

Stranger

“He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:15–18)

Jesus is saying the Church will now be believers only.

 

[Dave L]

Again, chapter and verse. As I said already. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit, that we the Church have. (Ps.51:11) We have the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of the resurrected Christ. (John 7:38-39) (Rom. 8:9)

Stranger

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

 

[Stranger]

They are one and the same.

No, they are not.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

“He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” (Matthew 16:15–18)

Jesus is saying the Church will now be believers only.

No, Jesus 'said' upon this rock I will build my church'. Future.

Well, the Israel of God was believers only. So? You have plenty of unbelievers in the visible Church today.

Stranger