Why John 6:37 is grossly misunderstood and misapplied

[justbyfaith]

Jhn 6:37, All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him (the one who comes to me) up at the last day.

If someone is given to Jesus by the Father, their salvation is guaranteed.

If someone is drawn to Jesus by the Father, that makes it possible for them to be saved; it does not guarantee it.

Read these verses with understanding; and you will see that what I am saying is true.

 

[justbyfaith]

The foreknowledge of God is not predestination.

We are predestined according to foreknowledge.

Rom 8:29, For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[justbyfaith]

Being before ordained to condemnation, also means that the person was condemned before the foundations of the world, through ordination...preselected choice.

 

[justbyfaith]

This would indicate that a story is being written.

In which every character of the story is created a certain way and behaves according to how they were created as a character.

The story writes itself because the characters begin to take on life after a while...however the outcome of the story is predestined.

Nevertheless in some cases the story may write itself differently than was originally intended by the author because of the fact that the characters begin to take on a life of their own.

 

[justbyfaith]

God writes the story and then puts everything into motion exactly the way the story was written, once He is satisfied with the outcome of the story.

 

[Phoneman777]

verse 10 does not say that it is mandatory; it says that it is the certain result of a saving faith. There is a difference.

"Mandatory" in the sense that it is the "unavoidable consequence" of a saving faith.

Just as bringing forth apples is the unavoidable consequence of and apple tree, so is obedience to God's commandments the unavoidable consequence of a life truly converted to Christ. Christ never told us of a "third option" like that false prophet Stanley who insists "carnal Christians" is a Biblical category.

 

[Phoneman777]

The point was that they thought that the scriptures brought them eternal life; yet they would not come to Jesus of whom the scriptures testify.

And while I hold the kjv to be superior in every way, I do not see the word "ye" at the beginning of that sentence as invalid.

I see it clearly. There's no reason to include "You..." in the Critical Text NT except as an attempt to lessen the clear Textus Receptus rendering which is a full on order from the the mouth of God to us to get busy opening the Word, while the Critical Text manufacture of "You search..." paves the way for speculation that such searching is optional.

 

[Phoneman777]

I have not so much as heard of the Black Hebrew Israelites to which they claim the “world” only refers to certain select group of people, but I do know Scripture declares that God elected, chosen, named, and predestined some for salvation

Read #14

To God Be The Glory

Please, just take my word for it and spare yourself the headache of researching it yourself: the BHI movement claims that the Scriptures are written only to Israel, both faithful and apostate, and that "Gentiles" and "Strangers" refer to the "outcasts of Israel" that chose to leave God and serve paganism. They teach that Israelites were BLACK and that black folks are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and that once blacks everywhere wake up an realize what their identity truly is and turn their faces to God, God will set up His Earthly kingdom and destroy us "white devils" and everyone else, but spare those of us who choose to obey God's commandments so that we can be their celestial slaves in the kingdom.

Nice religion, right? Slavery, exclusivity, sanction, disenfranchisement - all the stuff that they claim they so unfairly suffer down here will be happily partaken of by them up there.

Just a bunch of silly "He-Bros" pretending to be "Hebrews".

 

[Phoneman777]

Adding to salvation is not Gods idea it is men trying to show God how good they are, you are simply like so many trying to justify a religion, and like so many you refuse to leave it for Christ sake because it pleases you flesh. What has religion got to do with God,,, nothing. And you speak of Heresy yet you promote it.

So, according to you, my quoting verses to prove you wrong is "adding to Scripture"? Now I see the problem: Your grasp of the English language is as woefully poor as your grasp of the Gospel.

 

[mjrhealth]

So, according to you, my quoting verses to prove you wrong is "adding to Scripture"? Now I see the problem: Your grasp of the English language is as woefully poor as your grasp of the Gospel.

Oh now you are upset, you should get to know Christ He isnt a hard taskmaster as you all make Him out to be, and it matters not how much you go on about it, Those in Christ have no need for that Law that seems to make you all so irritable. Should I need to repeat, is Christs righteousness sin, would the Spirit of God lead men to Sin, would love cause me to sin?? Of course not, it is thos e "sinners" not in Christ who have nothing to stop them that need laws, because sin is always on their minds, and they dont believe in the finished works of Christ, why do you think it says.

1Ti_1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

because the righteousness in Christ have no need for rules. Love is enough and Christ is enough. And again you will refuse to leave your religion for His sake and so are indebted to obey its laws rules and doctrines that keep you from knowing Christ, your doing not His.

 

[justbyfaith]

"Mandatory" in the sense that it is the "unavoidable consequence" of a saving faith.

Sorry, not buying your redefinition of the word. Mandatory means "required". Cults develop when people redefine words so that when the teacher is teaching, outsiders hear one thing while insiders hear another.

Christ never told us of a "third option" like that false prophet Stanley who insists "carnal Christians" is a Biblical category.

Carnal Christians is a biblical category. It applies to babes in Christ:

1Co 3:1, And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2, I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3, For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
1Co 3:4, For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I see it clearly. There's no reason to include "You..." in the Critical Text NT except as an attempt to lessen the clear Textus Receptus rendering which is a full on order from the the mouth of God to us to get busy opening the Word, while the Critical Text manufacture of "You search..." paves the way for speculation that such searching is optional.

To include the word "Ye" there allows for a very excellent interpretation...that the scribes and Pharisees were heavy students of scripture because they thought that in the scriptures they had eternal life...and yet they were unwilling to come to Jesus (of whom the scriptures testify) that they might have life.

And while I hold the kjv to be superior in most cases, here I feel that some other versions hit it right on the nail by revealing that religious reading of the Bible will not save anyone unless they come to and receive the Person of whom the scriptures bear witness.

There are so many people out there who are avid students of the Bible who will not enter in to the kingdom because they missed Christ Himself...they thought that somehow they could measure up to the moral tenets of the Bible and enter in through their own righteousness...however their own righteousnesses are as filthy rags, and they have stumbled at that stumblingstone.

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[justbyfaith]

edited #331.

 

[Phoneman777]

Sorry, not buying your redefinition of the word. Mandatory means "required". Cults develop when people redefine words so that when the teacher is teaching, outsiders hear one thing while insiders hear another.

Look, let's dispense with the word play. We both know that you are trying to establish that obedience is OPTIONAL. It is no more optional than are the apples brought forth by the apple tree. Cults develop when people aren't happy with the idea of "total surrender" - what Paul calls "the offense of the Cross" - so they invent doctrines like yours which allow for the deliberate practice of unfaithfulness to God while claiming to be otherwise. The largest cult following in Christianity is the OSAS cult which claims that which is only obtained by living faith can be obtained by dead faith: eternal life.

Carnal Christians is a biblical category. It applies to babes in Christ:

Yes, babes in Christ are "carnal" in the sense that they "operate ignorantly by the flesh, not by the spirit". That's not what Stanley defines it as - his definition is deliberate operation by the flesh, which he says deprives you only of blessing on Earth and jewels in the crown of life, not the crown itself. Such a defined category does not exist in Scripture.

But Scripture says "if we ("we" meaning the Christian converts to whom he is speaking) willfully sin after recieving a knowledge of the truth there is no more sacrifice for sin but a certain fearful looking unto of judgment and fiery indignation which shall devour the adversaries (of Christ who teach OSAS)." Hebrews 10:26

 

[Phoneman777]

Oh now you are upset, you should get to know Christ He isnt a hard taskmaster as you all make Him out to be, and it matters not how much you go on about it, Those in Christ have no need for that Law that seems to make you all so irritable.

Upset? If a doctor just told you that thing on your arm that you believed was just a mole is actually a deadly cancer, would you re-examine your erroneous beliefs about it or just assume he is saying that to you because he is "upset"?

 

[justbyfaith]

Look, let's dispense with the word play. We both know that you are trying to establish that obedience is OPTIONAL.

Obedience is something that will definitely be the result in someone who has a living and saving faith.

But I think you have to agree that it is not obedience/works that save.

There is an obedience of faith and an obedience to the faith...however this amounts to works; and the scriptures are clear that works do not save anyone.

So obedience is something that comes out of a living and saving faith, but it is also not required for salvation...for salvation comes to us solely through believing in Christ and what He did for us on the Cross...receiving Him into our hearts and appropriating His precious shed blood to our lives. Of course the blood of Jesus sanctifies (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29) and cleanses (1 John 1:7).

So once a person is saved by faith alone in Jesus, it will always produce good works if the opportunity for good works is there. In the case with the thief on the cross, or a deathbed conversion, good works will not be accomplished until after the person passes into the next life.

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

It is not our works that save us, but it is our works/fruits because of our faith that are recorded in the books, that will be opened and read from, when we are standing before the judgement seat, that will seal/determine our fate.

Faith without legs that demonstrate our faith is only an opinion on our part. Isaiah 58 tells us that God wants us to be a doing people caring for those around us and that if we truly believe in him that we will be doing these acts of kindness for others to be blessed and that if we continue in this that He will heal us if we stop the pointing of our finger, i.e. judging others about their righteousness. Is it works or an expression of our believing in Him Who He has sent.

Shalom

 

[justbyfaith]

Hello

It is not our works that save us, but it is our works/fruits because of our faith that are recorded in the books, that will be opened and read from, when we are standing before the judgement seat, that will seal/determine our fate.

Faith without legs that demonstrate our faith is only an opinion on our part. Isaiah 58 tells us that God wants us to be a doing people caring for those around us and that if we truly believe in him that we will be doing these acts of kindness for others to be blessed and that if we continue in this that He will heal us if we stop the pointing of our finger, i.e. judging others about their righteousness. Is it works or an expression of our believing in Him Who He has sent.

Shalom

Indeed, it is not our works that save us. Giving money to the poor is not going to accomplish the transformation in my heart that we identify as salvation. Believing in what Christ did for me on the Cross; believing in Him, receiving Him into my heart, and appropriating His shed blood will bring about this transformation; and if I add works as part of the basis it will make it null and void.

However the transformation that takes place is primarily identified by Romans 5:5, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in my heart through the Holy Ghost who is given to me; and this love is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18). Therefore good works will normally follow a true conversion, which only takes place through faith alone in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross. It is a labour of love and a work of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

So I will be judged by how (or by whether) that love worked itself out in my life, as the evidence of a living and saving faith.

If I had the love of the Lord, I will be rewarded for the good things that I did. If I did not have that love, I will be judged negatively according to how I lacked that love in my behaviour. If I had that love but never had the opportunity to exhibit it properly, I will be saved so as by fire. Because there was no gold, silver, or precious gems; only wood, hay, and stubble. It will all be burned; yet I myself would be saved, yet so as by fire (see 1 Corinthians chapter 3).

 

[Jay Ross]

Indeed, it is not our works that save us. Giving money to the poor is not going to accomplish the transformation in my heart that we identify as salvation. Believing in what Christ did for me on the Cross; believing in Him, receiving Him into my heart, and appropriating His shed blood will bring about this transformation; and if I add works as part of the basis it will make it null and void.

However the transformation that takes place is primarily identified by Romans 5:5, the love of the Lord is shed abroad in my heart through the Holy Ghost who is given to me; and this love is not in word or in tongue only but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:18). Therefore good works will normally follow a true conversion, which only takes place through faith alone in Jesus and what He did for me on the Cross. It is a labour of love and a work of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

So I will be judged by how (or by whether) that love worked itself out in my life, as the evidence of a living and saving faith.

If I had the love of the Lord, I will be rewarded for the good things that I did. If I did not have that love, I will be judged negatively according to how I lacked that love in my behaviour. If I had that love but never had the opportunity to exhibit it properly, I will be saved so as by fire. Because there was no gold, silver, or precious gems; only wood, hay, and stubble. It will all be burned; yet I myself would be saved, yet so as by fire (see 1 Corinthians chapter 3).

You like to make it complicated, this salvation process. Isaiah 58 does tell us: -

Isaiah 58:6-12: -

6 "Is not this the fast that I choose:
to loose the bonds of wickedness,
to undo the thongs of the yoke,
to let the oppressed go free,
and to break every yoke?
7 Is it not to share your bread with the hungry,
and bring the homeless poor into your house;
when you see the naked, to cover him,
and not to hide yourself from your own flesh?

8 Then shall your light break forth like the dawn,
and your healing shall spring up speedily;
your righteousness shall go before you,
the glory of the Lord shall be your rear guard.
9 Then you shall call, and the Lord will answer;
you shall cry, and he will say, Here I am.

"If you take away from the midst of you the yoke,
the pointing of the finger, and speaking wickedness,
10 if you pour yourself out for the hungry
and satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
then shall your light rise in the darkness
and your gloom be as the noonday.
11 And the Lord will guide you continually,
and satisfy your desire with good things,
and make your bones strong;
and you shall be like a watered garden,
like a spring of water,
whose waters fail not.
12 And your ancient ruins shall be rebuilt;
you shall raise up the foundations of many generations;
you shall be called the repairer of the breach,
the restorer of streets to dwell in.
​

Yes I know that this was written to Israel, but the principles are still the same.

The process of How God Heals us is His business and it will probably be different for each and every one of us. We all have different baggage that needs to be dealt with by Him.

As we step into God's grace, we are required to step out in faith to demonstrate our faith in Him. Then as we demonstrate our faith, God heals us and cleanses us. For some this process will be real fast. For others it will be real slow because of our stubborn hearts. For the Israelites, God has been waiting for 4 ages, i.e. a little longer than 4,000 year, for them to repent of their iniquities, but when they do, within one descendant generation, the healing will be achieved and they will become His Kingdom of Priest, a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations to become a blessing for all of the people/nations.

God does use the KISS processes in healing us. Why do we make it prescriptive.

Shalom

 

[justbyfaith]

The way into salvation is very simple:

1Co 15:1, Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
1Co 15:2, By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
1Co 15:3, For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4, And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Jhn 14:6, Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 4:3, For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

 

[mjrhealth]

"Mandatory" in the sense that it is the "unavoidable consequence" of a saving faith.

Just as bringing forth apples is the unavoidable consequence of and apple tree, so is obedience to God's commandments the unavoidable consequence of a life truly converted to Christ. Christ never told us of a "third option" like that false prophet Stanley who insists "carnal Christians" is a Biblical category.

He never gave you the first, and it was not an option for Israel, and it saved no one.
"Hi mankind, I am going to be absolutely foolish, I am going to give you a load that you cant carry. Have fun making it to the finish line with it."

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

just laying stumbling blocks for teh masses