Duck Muscles
Active Member
People are born sinners. Which means we are condemned to answer for our transgressions when we are accountable for our sins.
We do not choose to be sinners.
We do not choose to be sinners.
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You were born into a situation which had nothing to do with you. You were born with the propensity to be self interested above all else, call it selfishness if you like.....and God knows this; he does not condemn you for what you had no say in. He instead provides a solution by giving you (all people) a new representative. Paul presents this Good News in the language of 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' (Romans 5)People are born sinners. Which means we are condemned to answer for our transgressions when we are accountable for our sins.
We do not choose to be sinners.
You're a Universalist.You were born into a situation which had nothing to do with you. You were born with the propensity to be self interested above all else, call it selfishness if you like.....and God knows this; he does not condemn you for what you had no say in. He instead provides a solution by giving you (all people) a new representative. Paul presents this Good News in the language of 'in Adam' and 'in Christ' (Romans 5)
I am not a UniversalistYou're a Universalist.
I don't think that is able to be sustained by God's teachings.
I see. Perhaps you would share what religion you follow that leads to conclusions contrary to those in this forum.I am not a Universalist
I see Jesus as the pivotal point in understanding scripture. He is the bright morning star, the key of David and the one we are instructed to listen to regarding all matters pertaining to God.I see. Perhaps you would share what religion you follow that leads to conclusions contrary to those in this forum.
Lucifer is referred to by that same title.I see Jesus as the pivotal point in understanding scripture. He is the bright morning star, the key of David and the one we are instructed to listen to regarding all matters pertaining to God.
Revelation22:16Lucifer is referred to by that same title.
Isaiah 14Revelation22:16
'I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.'
yes, that was Lucifer.Isaiah 14
12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! 12 “How you are fallen from heaven, O shining star, son of the morning! You have been thrown down to the earth, you who destroyed the nations of the world."
Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ.
Here is a great study on this issue..
'Universalism is an appealing notion in some ways, but it goes against the clear teachings of Scripture. We’ve seen throughout this study that the Bible plainly indicates two possible destinies for humankind: life or death, salvation or destruction. The idea that people cast into the lake of fire will eventually be purged of their sins and receive eternal life would make utter nonsense of the Scriptures. Let’s consider a handful of examples:
What the Bible states:
How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it (though they’ll ultimately be purified and blessed with eternal life). But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it (yet everyone else will eventually find it too).”
What the Bible states:
How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:
“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna) but He will eventually restore these people and grant them eternal life.”
What the Bible states:
How we’d have to interpret this text if universalism is true:
“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him — but he’ll eventually receive eternal life too.”
What the Bible states:
How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:
“for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned, but the latter will eventually rise to live as well.”
What the Bible states:
How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:
The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction, but will eventually be restored and granted eternal life; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.
What the Bible states:
How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and destroy (but He will ultimately restore and redeem those whom He utterly destroys and grant them eternal life).
I could go on and on here. As you can see, the notion of universal salvation renders the Scriptures utterly nonsensical.
Certainly, as 1 Timothy 2:4 points out, God “wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth;” in fact, this is the very reason why this section of Scripture encourages believers to offer prayers for “everyone” (see verse 1); but what can God do if people freely choose to reject his offer of reconciliation and eternal life in favor of “sin, which leads to death” (Romans 6:16)? I’ve heard the question: Since God is all-powerful could He create a stone so big that he couldn’t move it? The answer is yes, the human heart.
The reason all people can’t be saved is simply because God respects our freewill choices. He did not create robots, so he can’t force people to choose reconciliation and receive eternal life. People who reject God in favor of sin are choosing death, the wages of sin. So God will ultimately accommodate them. Their fate is really self-destruction—almost suicide—because God is only giving them what their freewill actions justly deserve. Will He enjoy this? Of course not. He doesn’t want “anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).
Another argument that universalists make is that the English words “eternal” and “everlasting” are translated from the Greek word aionios (ayy-OHN-ee-us) which more properly means “age-lasting;” they contend therefore that “eternal punishment” and “everlasting destruction” refer more specifically to ‘punishment that lasts an age’ and ‘destruction that lasts an age.’ Their point is that the punishment and destruction of the ungodly may indeed last an eon of time, but it certainly won’t last forever and ever. They are right about aionios (see Chapter Four) but there are two obvious problems with this argument: 1. “The age to come” spoken of in the Bible (e.g. Mark 10:29-30) is a perpetual age (itself made up of ages according to Ephesians 2:7) and therefore God’s age-lasting punishment of utter destruction will last perpetually. 2. God’s age-lasting punishment of age-lasting destruction is always spoken of in direct contrast to the age-lasting life that God will grant the righteous (e.g. Matthew 25:46), since the age-lasting life that God grants the righteous refers to perpetuity in the eternal age to come we must conclude that the age-lasting destruction of the ungodly will be just as eternal.
There’s no getting around it, universalism is simply incompatible with clear biblical teaching and is therefore not a valid option to consider.
Yet universalism is a popular view held by a growing number of Christians throughout the world. What spurs so many to embrace this erroneous view? The answer is obvious…
For various reasons most of these people have overlooked the doctrine of literal everlasting destruction. Because of religious tradition they naturally assume two erroneous things: 1. that people can never cease to exist because they have “immortal souls,” and 2. that “hell” must refer to never-ending fiery conscious torment. The latter assumption, as already covered, is the ultimate evil—the worst conceivable concept. It is so profoundly disturbing that these people feel they have no recourse but to reject the idea of eternal damnation altogether. Once the idea of hell is discarded the only option left is universalism. The problem with this is that, in accepting universalism, these people are rejecting the authority of God’s Word, which clearly teaches that many are doomed to be cast into the lake of fire to suffer the second death. Rejecting the authority of the Holy Scriptures can lead to nothing but spiritual degeneration and apostasy.
Literal everlasting destruction is the sound medium between the two extremes of eternal torture and universalism. Eternal torture is ridiculously too severe, yet universalism is ridiculously too lenient. Eternal torture is sadistic, immoral and unjust, yet universalism suggests that people can do whatever wicked thing their evil hearts desire and still ultimately be blessed with everlasting life and reconciliation. This would of course make universalism unjust as well. Both these extremes should be rejected in favor of everlasting destruction—the balanced, acceptable, reasonable and scriptural view on the matter......'
Dear Frosty,Can you give me the scripture that talks about "the early rain of the Spirit"?
One leads to death and destruction, the other leads to life and eternity with God, its that simple.I have a different interpretation of the two gates in Mat:7:13-14.
Those that go into the wide gate are the disobedient Israel, who believe in God, but are blinded to see the truth. They have the promise of an eternal inheritance, but are going about teaching false doctrines that leads to destruction, and the strait gate that leads to an abundant life of peace and contentment without fear are the remnant of Israel, who trust in the Lord (Zeph 3:10-13) (Ezk 10:10)
That's right.There is a false doctrine that teaches all people will be saved, that a good and loving God would not allow any to perish.
Dear Hobie,One leads to death and destruction, the other leads to life and eternity with God, its that simple.
Are you saying that as Jesus came to His own people, the lost sheep of Israel, His teaching reflected that?I have a different interpretation of the two gates in Mat:7:13-14.
Those that go into the wide gate are the disobedient Israel, who believe in God, but are blinded to see the truth. They have the promise of an eternal inheritance, but are going about teaching false doctrines that leads to destruction, and the strait gate that leads to an abundant life of peace and contentment without fear are the remnant of Israel, who trust in the Lord (Zeph 3:10-13) (Ezk 10:10)
Thanks Joe. What a hope we have in a thoughtful loving Creator. That He will gather all to Himself and enjoy us throughout His never ending existence.Dear Hobie,
Christ's work of saving 100% of mankind is not simple - if it were, you would understand the plan that Christ established to accomplish the mission that His Father sent Him to accomplish:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Your beliefs and teachings make Christ out to be a failure and a sinner (one who misses the mark set by God).
Where is your faith in Christ to accomplish everything that Christ has sworn He would accomplish, even if you don't understand how He will accomplish it?
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Even the OT prophets testified to the truth that Christ will save all mankind:
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Paul repeated this scripture below:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And as God's Word also says, no man can call Jesus "Lord" unless they have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit:
1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Don't you know that faith is about believing the truth of what Christ has said to us through scripture? And that FAITH is what makes the pathway straight for Christ to come to us a second time to pour out the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain/Spirit of Truth) and convert us from being a condemned child of the Devil into an immortal child of God?
Look at the faith of the centurion in the scripture below:
Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. 8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
This story is a "type" which teaches about faith and how it relates to mankind's salvation. The centurion did not know how Christ would heal (save) his servant but that did not stop the centurion from believing that Christ could do it.
Is your faith less than the faith of the centurion? I believe it is.
If you don't have enough faith to believe the scriptures I quoted above, you should pray for more faith because our faith is a gift from God and does not come from within ourselves:
Eph 2:8 Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Joe
Are you saying that as Jesus came to His own people, the lost sheep of Israel, His teaching reflected that?
Where as many interprete them as Gentiles, relating His teachings to them to include Gentiles.
Why not Everyone will be Saved
A Saviour is only a Saviour if he saves.
Those who drown do so because they didn't want saving. How is that? They were persuaded their Saviour couldn't save them and pushed him away.