Why not Everyone will be Saved

[Hobie]

There is a false doctrine that teaches all people will be saved, that a good and loving God would not allow any to perish. They come up with many ideas of how this can happen, that after a cleansing period such as another false doctrine, Purgatory, God will free sinners and let them get to heaven, or that there will be multiple raptures so that people will have another opportunity to choose God or another path to Him. So but the Bible doesnt teach this, it tells us clearly there is only one path...

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And He will separate the sheep (saints) from the goats (wicked) at His coming...
Matthew 25:32-34
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

And only the saints will be taken to heaven to be in the Kingdom where Christ has prepared a place for them...
John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So we see that the Kingdom is only for the saints, the chosen, the elect, but the Bible also calls them a remnant...
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

And we find the following also...
Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

So not all shall be saved, but lets look further into this..

 

[MatthewG]

Why are faithless people claimed to be outside of the gates of the city in heaven?

Hello there, PLEASE READ THE ENTIRE POST Many people believe that God is going to destroy people in the lake of fire, but is that true? In Revelation 20, you see that the devil, the false prophet, the beast are all placed in the lake of fire forever; and then following those who name was not...

www.christianityboard.com

Just sharing some information that was created a year ago, that may or may not hold water Hobie!

 

[Hobie]

We see the context...
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

So we see that many who try to be saved by the Law but have no Faith in Christ will stumble as they do the works but dont believe, and thus have no fruits of the Spirit or walk with the Lord. So Gods Word is clear that the Law saves no one, but its there for a reason
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God is fair and is a God of justice and would never let any perish without knowing why, and then gives us a choice...
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So we have a choice death at the Lake of Fire, or Eternal Life through Christ our Lord, and the choice is final..
Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

 

[Hobie]

So we go back to the text of Isaiah being given...
Isaiah 1:8-25
8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.
9 Except the Lord of hosts had left unto us a very small remnant, we should have been as Sodom, and we should have been like unto Gomorrah.
10 Hear the word of the Lord, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.
11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?
13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.
16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.
21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
22 Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
24 Therefore saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
25 And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:

And we see even more, as it says "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me?", they were what pointed to Christ and would not save, it was always about faith, and in the coming Christ. The works are the result of that faith, and what tells you what is sin, the knowledge of the Law. Thus we find the following...

Proverbs 24:12
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

[FaithWillDo]

There is a false doctrine that teaches all people will be saved, that a good and loving God would not allow any to perish. They come up with many ideas of how this can happen, that after a cleansing period such as another false doctrine, Purgatory, God will free sinners and let them get to heaven, or that there will be multiple raptures so that people will have another opportunity to choose God or another path to Him. So but the Bible doesnt teach this, it tells us clearly there is only one path...

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And He will separate the sheep (saints) from the goats (wicked) at His coming...
Matthew 25:32-34
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

And only the saints will be taken to heaven to be in the Kingdom where Christ has prepared a place for them...
John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So we see that the Kingdom is only for the saints, the chosen, the elect, but the Bible also calls them a remnant...
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

And we find the following also...
Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

So not all shall be saved, but lets look further into this..

Dear Hobie,
I have explained many times to you that Christ has a plan to save all mankind. In this age, Christ is only bringing in His crop of "First Fruits". They are the Elect who were chosen for this blessing from the foundation of the world. They are the early harvest.

Why do you believe that Christ is going to leave the rest of His crop of mankind to rot in the field?

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Why did Christ command the Nation of Israel to observe TWO feasts of the harvest if Christ is only to make one harvest as you contend?

The Feast of Ingathering which occurs at year's end is the main harvest of mankind. It will occur at the end of the final age on the last and great day of the harvest. What a day that will be!!

In the book of John, Christ went secretly to the Feast of Ingathering and made this call:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

If Christ was not planning on bringing in the harvest at year's end, why would He make this call to the "lost" at that time? And why would this call be repeated in scripture with the addition of the Elect?

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The purpose of the final age is to judge mankind by the Law. The Elect will be Christ's "army" during this time of judgment. But before the "lost" perish (the true penalty of sin), Christ will have mercy upon them and will freely give them "faith".

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

With their newly received faith in Christ, the pathway will be made straight for Christ to come and pour out the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) upon them. With the Spirit, the "lost" will be born again as a child of God and gathered up to heaven. The child of the Devil will remain in the Lake of Fire (represents judgment) until he is destroyed (satisfies justice). This spiritual process is called conversion and is what the Elect are experiencing in this age.

After the last person of mankind is saved, this scripture will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Where is your love and mercy for the lost?

You make many posts on following the commandments of God but you (like the Pharisees) are omitting justice, mercy and faith from your judgment of others.

Christ said this:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

Christ's love and mercy for mankind does not change from this age to the next.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

In the final age, Christ will "do good" to the lost and give them the faith they need to be saved. This is how He saved the Elect in this age and this is how He will save the remainder of mankind in the final age.

Why do you believe that Christ will omit justice, mercy and faith in His judgment of the lost in the final age?

Do you believe this verse below?

Lam 3:22 The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases; his mercies never come to an end;

Joe

 

[Jericho]

Such theology presumes everyone wants to be saved, but this isn't the case. There are people who want nothing to do with God. Satan and his fallen angels certainly didn't want to submit to God's authority, and they had full knowledge of God. Such individuals would never be content to live in heaven. Our heaven would be their hell. Plus, there would always be contention between those who willingly served God and those who didn't. There has to be a separation between the two groups in order to have eternal peace and end rebellion once and for all.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Such theology presumes everyone wants to be saved, but this isn't the case. There are people who want nothing to do with God. Satan and his fallen angels certainly didn't want to submit to God's authority, and they had full knowledge of God. Such individuals would never be content to live in heaven. Our heaven would be their hell. Plus, there would always be contention between those who willingly served God and those who didn't. There has to be a separation between the two groups in order to have eternal peace and end rebellion once and for all.

Dear Jericho,
You are describing people who have not received the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain is what gives a person their faith in Christ.
Without the Spirit, this is what scripture says about a person:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

We all start off life as the "natural man" who wants nothing to do with Christ. This can only change if Christ decides to have mercy upon a person and give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. With the Spirit, the person will (100% of the time) make a confession of faith when presented with the Gospel by the foolishness of preaching.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Because it is necessary for Christ to give a person the Spirit BEFORE they can believe, Paul says that no man has anything to boast about concerning their salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation is a free gift from Christ and He gives it to a person because of His grace. In this age, Christ will not give this gift to most of mankind. They will remain unbelievers until they die. They have no choice in the matter because their carnal mind only has "enmity" (hatred) toward God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

However, Christ will give the free gift of the Early Rain to "many" people.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

After He gives them the free gift, they will make a confession of faith and will enter the church. But since these new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:15-25) after receiving the "small rain" (Deu 32:2, Job 37:6), they will have very little ability to receive the truth of God. Paul says that they he can only teach them "Christ and Him crucified":

1Cor 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

Because they are spiritually blind, the truth of God's Word will remain a mystery to them. Satan will then come to the new believer and find that their house remains empty of the truth. When He finds the new believer empty, he will plant his seed of the spirit of anti-Christ within them. After this happens, the Abomination of Desolation will occur within the new believer (God's Temple).

Christ explains this spiritual process of devolution this way:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

The fallen away believer (man of sin) will remain in this "worse than the first" condition until they die OR until Christ comes to them a second time. If they are one of the "few" who are chosen, Christ will come again to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, the fallen away believer will be restored and born again as a child of God. At this time, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed and they will then be able to "see" the Abomination of Desolation that had previously occurred with them:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand. 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

After they see the A of D, Christ's judgment will fall on them and remove the spirit of anti-Christ and their worsened carnal spiritual nature (Mystery Babylon the Great Harlot).

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field (one flesh, one believer); the one shall be taken (spirit of anti-Christ/man of sin), and the other left (Holy Spirit/child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (Great Harlot/bondwoman), and the other left (new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit/free woman).

After this judgment is complete, the person will be converted from a child of the Devil into a child of God. This is salvation.

Christ has promised to spiritually convert all mankind before He finishes His work. In this age, He will convert only those people who have been chosen from the foundation of the world for that blessing. The rest of mankind will have to wait until the great harvest at the end of the final age. After the last of mankind has been saved, Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven (now containing all mankind) to His Father. God will then be "all in all".

1Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (harvest of First Fruits/Elect). 24 Then cometh the consummation (harvest at the end of the final age), when he delivers up the kingdom to His God and Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

At this time, the Father will receive glory by the finished work of Jesus Christ that He sent His Son to perform:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 and that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joe

 

[Jericho]

You are describing people who have not received the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Are you a Seventh-day Adventist because I have never heard that term before?

We all start off life as the "natural man" who wants nothing to do with Christ. This can only change if Christ decides to have mercy upon a person and give them the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Where does free will enter into the equation? Are we to be saved by force? Salvation is a choice. It's not God's will for anyone to perish. If it's not God's will then whose will is it?

With the Spirit, the person will (100% of the time) make a confession of faith when presented with the Gospel by the foolishness of preaching.

How would you explain Lucifer before fell? Did he not have the spirit of God? The bible says he was perfect, and yet he still rebelled.

 

[Hobie]

So we look at word "remnant" given in Isaiah..
Isaiah 10:22
For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

So what does the word remnant mean, well a remnant is a leftover. It’s a small piece of something, maybe a piece of cloth or , it may be a part of a stone, but it’s a discarded piece of material, it’s a fragment that’s left over, it’s a very small part of the whole. And it’s really after the whole has been used, there will be some little portion, some tiny portion that was not used to make a coat, a piece of carpet that was not used to finish a floor in a room, or tile that was not used to finish making a countertop such as with stone, that’s what the word “remnant” means.

When you hear the term “remnant” being given, it refers to a group of people who remain loyal as a remnant of believers that will exist in the last days, when earth is at its worst, right at the end before the Second Coming. God never promised to save the entire peoples of the earth or even all of Israel, that was never in the eternal counsel of God. That was never in the eternal purpose of God. All God said is that there will be a very significant remnant out of the larger number that will be saved.

We see what happened when Noah was warned of the coming destruction.
Genesis 6:13
And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

And how many went into the ark with Noah as destruction loomed...
Genesis 7:13
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;

And just eight people were saved, a small remnant of those that were on the earth..
Genesis 7:23
And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

Although the people had received numerous warnings to repent, most of the people chose to reject God and live according to their own desires and lusts, and disregarded the warning. But not Noah and his family who though just a few in number, they made up a faithful remnant of God’s true followers.

The same thing happened with Lot when Sodom and Gommorah were to meet its destruction, only Lot and his family came out in time, only a small remnant of those in the city.
Genesis 19:15
And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city.

So it will be at the end, only a part of the peoples and nations of the earth will be saved, and even many Christians will be surprised not to be among the remnant..
Luke 13:13-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

So its clear from Gods Word, not everyone will be saved, only His chosen elect, a remnant..

 

[FaithWillDo]

Are you a Seventh-day Adventist because I have never heard that term before?



Where does free will enter into the equation? Are we to be saved by force? Salvation is a choice. It's not God's will for anyone to perish. If it's not God's will then whose will is it?



How would you explain Lucifer before fell? Did he not have the spirit of God? The bible says he was perfect, and yet he still rebelled.

Dear Jericho,
You asked:
Are you a Seventh-day Adventist because I have never heard that term before?

I am not a Seventh Day Adventist.

All church organizations in the world are apostate just as Paul said they would be shortly after his death. None of them teach the truth of God's Word. They are places where the "blind led the blind" under the influence of the spirit of anti-Christ. They all teach Satan's "another Gospel" which mixes in man's works with faith. This false gospel is then supported with the false doctrines of Free Will and Hell which blaspheme the name of Christ to this world.

I was converted in 2005 and that is when I saw the Abomination of Desolation within myself. At that time, I quickly left the apostate church system and have never gone back.

You asked:
Where does free will enter into the equation?

Mankind does not have a free will. Only God the Father has a free will. Everyone else's will is subservient to God's "will". Here are just a few of the verses that teach this truth:

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

You asked:
Are we to be saved by force?

You are misunderstanding how Christ works within mankind. Christ's spiritual work changes our heart so that our "will" conforms to God's "will". He does not force anything.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

When Christ gave you the Early Rain of the Spirit, the Spirit within you changed your heart to cause you to want to accept Christ as your Savior.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Because your heart was changed, the only decision you wanted to make was to confess that Jesus is Lord. You could no longer call Jesus accursed.

The spiritual work of Christ through the Spirit is the only way an unbeliever can become a believer. If Christ does not do this spiritual work within a person, they will never be able to accept Christ as their Lord.

You asked:
Salvation is a choice.

No. Salvation is not a choice.

Consider these verses:

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2Tim 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

You asked:
It's not God's will for anyone to perish. If it's not God's will then whose will is it?

Since it is God's "will" for no one to perish, no one is going to perish.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

You asked:
How would you explain Lucifer before fell? Did he not have the spirit of God? The bible says he was perfect, and yet he still rebelled.

No, Satan did not have God's Spirit. The scripture in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are not talking about Satan. Satan was never perfect in his ways. Also, the name "Lucifer" is a very poor translation and should not be in scripture.

Satan was created by God to be the crooked serpent and a murderer and a liar. Also, Satan does not have a free will. As I said, only God the Father has a free will.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.

Job 26:13 By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Satan was created as he is to satisfy the purposes of God. Nothing happens in this creation that God does not cause to happen.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God made this creation for the purpose of creating new children and He wanted His children to have a knowledge of good and evil. That is the reason God made us carnal and sinful from the beginning. But after evil has satisfied it's purpose, God will end the evil. To accomplish this task of ending evil, God sent Christ into the world. After Christ's work is done, all mankind will be saved and evil will be a thing of the past.

This scripture applies:

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Are you a Seventh-day Adventist because I have never heard that term before?



Where does free will enter into the equation? Are we to be saved by force? Salvation is a choice. It's not God's will for anyone to perish. If it's not God's will then whose will is it?



How would you explain Lucifer before fell? Did he not have the spirit of God? The bible says he was perfect, and yet he still rebelled.

Dear Jericho,
Since you asked about the Early Rain of the Spirit, I wanted to answer you in a separate post so that I would have more space to write.

Here are two key scriptures concerning the Early and Latter Rains:

James 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the latter and former RAIN unto the earth.

The Early and Latter Rains concept is a part of the farming analogy which teaches the pathway to salvation. The pathway begins when Christ spiritually comes to a person and gives them the Early Rain of the Spirit. The Early Rain is also called the "Spirit of Faith" (2Cor 4:13) because it is what gives an unbeliever the faith they need to accept Jesus as their Lord. Included with the Spirit of Faith, the new believer will receive certain spiritual gifts. However, the Early Rain of the Spirit is only given in a small measure:

Deu 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain (Early Rain) upon the tender herb, and as the showers (Latter Rain) upon the grass:

Job 37:6 For he saith to the snow, Be thou on the earth; likewise to the small rain (Early Rain), and to the great rain (Latter Rain) of his strength.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in Jehovah your God; for he giveth you the former rain (Early Rain) in just measure, and he causes to come down for you the rain, the former rain and the latter rain, in the first month.

Because the Early Rain of the Spirit is only given in measure, it will not heal the new believer's spiritual blindness. This truth is taught by the healing of the blind man in Mark 8:15-25 and by Paul's conversion experience in Acts chapter 9. And since the believer cannot receive the truth of Christ, judgment will not fall on them to destroy their carnality.

With the new believer in this weak spiritual state, Satan will come to them and deceive them (Mat 12:43-45 & the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares). It happens to every new believer shortly after they are called out from the world and enter the church.

Note: At the time the NT letters were written, the spirit of anti-Christ had not come into the churches yet. Because the apostasy had not come, the new believers in the churches the Apostles started did not fall away. But shortly after Paul's death, the spirit of anti-Christ did come into the churches and none of the flock was spared (Acts 20:29-31). Keep this truth in mind when as you read the letters.

Christ said this about the time the spirt of anti-Christ came into the churches:

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

After the new believer falls away and becomes a man of sin, they will remain in that fallen away condition until they die UNLESS they are one of the Elect. For the Elect, Christ will spiritually come to them a second time and will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the true meaning of the second coming of Christ. This event is also called the baptism of the Spirit. It is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days.

Consider what these two verses below say about the spiritual condition of the believer who is waiting on the Lord to come with the Latter Rain:

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

Also, since the second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event in the life of each Elect person, scripture says this about the second coming of Christ:

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

The book of Revelation is not a prophecy about one-time world events which happen at the literal end of the age. It is a prophecy that teaches reoccurring spiritual events that will occur in the life of each Elect believer as they travel the pathway to salvation. All end-time prophecy is teaching this same truth about the pathway to salvation. For that reason, I frequently quote from Matthew chapter 24.

One final point: Paul's conversion experience is a "type" that teaches the pathway to salvation the Elect must travel (1Tim 1:16).

The story begins as Paul was traveling the Damascus Road on his way to persecute the church in Damascus. But all that changed for Paul when the Lord "suddenly" (Mal 3:1) came to Paul (God's temple). It was at that time that Paul received the Early Rain of the Spirit and called Jesus Lord. Paul then submitted to Jesus' authority and asked Christ what He wanted him to do. Since Paul's spiritual blindness was not healed when he received the Early Rain, Paul had to ask who the voice was that was speaking to him. Paul's physical blindness also typed his spiritual blindness. After this event, Paul was now a called out believer and had entered the church.

After Paul arrived in Damascus, he remained blind and unable to eat or drink. This represents the spiritual state of all new believers. Because a new believer is spiritually blind, they, too, cannot eat the true bread from heaven or drink the New Wine of Christ. Also, Paul was staying at the house of a man named Judas to represent that Paul had become a man of sin and had fallen away. The number three represents the spiritual process that Paul went through to become a man of sin.

When the Lord was ready to come to Paul a second time, the Lord caused Paul to pray. Though the story does not say what Paul's prayer was about, Paul was most likely repenting and praying for understanding about what had just happened to him. To give Paul His answer, Christ (typed by Ananias) travelled to Paul on a street named "straight" (types that Christ's pathway was made straight by Paul's faith). When Ananias arrived, Paul received the Latter Rain and the scales fell from Paul's eyes. After Paul received his spiritual meat (truth), Paul was strengthened.

I hope this better explains the Early and Latter Rain concept.

Joe

 

[Jim C]

Are you a Seventh-day Adventist because I have never heard that term before?



Where does free will enter into the equation? Are we to be saved by force? Salvation is a choice. It's not God's will for anyone to perish. If it's not God's will then whose will is it?



How would you explain Lucifer before fell? Did he not have the spirit of God? The bible says he was perfect, and yet he still rebelled.

The "Rain Theology" is a false doctrine that originated within the Pentecostal church, primarily based on numerous scriptures taken out of context.
Without going into a sermon, there are two main points that debunk this doctrine:

1) Nowhere in scripture is the Holy Spirit ever associated with rain.

2) all the cherry-picked scripture, when read in context, are analogies to farming in Israel. The weather pattern in Israel (at least during those times) had spring (early) and fall (latter) rains, both of which were necessary for farmers to successfully grow crops. The lesson typically taught in these passages is about having patience.

 

[FaithWillDo]

The "Rain Theology" is a false doctrine that originated within the Pentecostal church, primarily based on numerous scriptures taken out of context.
Without going into a sermon, there are two main points that debunk this doctrine:

1) Nowhere in scripture is the Holy Spirit ever associated with rain.

2) all the cherry-picked scripture, when read in context, are analogies to farming in Israel. The weather pattern in Israel (at least during those times) had spring (early) and fall (latter) rains, both of which were necessary for farmers to successfully grow crops. The lesson typically taught in these passages is about having patience.

Dear Jim C,
I do not teach what the Pentecostal church teaches about the Early and Latter Rain. Their teaching is false. You should be able to see that from my post.

Also, water is the spiritual symbol for the Holy Spirit. It comes to a person as rain.

Patience is a part of the Early and Latter Rain analogy because a new believer (Early Rain only) must wait on the Lord to come a second time to pour out the Latter Rain and salvation:

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Joe

 

[Hobie]

Such theology presumes everyone wants to be saved, but this isn't the case. There are people who want nothing to do with God. Satan and his fallen angels certainly didn't want to submit to God's authority, and they had full knowledge of God. Such individuals would never be content to live in heaven. Our heaven would be their hell. Plus, there would always be contention between those who willingly served God and those who didn't. There has to be a separation between the two groups in order to have eternal peace and end rebellion once and for all.

Very true, the wicked love the sin and iniquity to the point that they wouldnt have it any other way, and being in the heavenly Kingdom has no interest for them, if fact they would hate being with God or the saints, and rather the bondage under Satan..

 

[Hobie]

Here is a great study on this issue..
'Universalism is an appealing notion in some ways, but it goes against the clear teachings of Scripture. We’ve seen throughout this study that the Bible plainly indicates two possible destinies for humankind: life or death, salvation or destruction. The idea that people cast into the lake of fire will eventually be purged of their sins and receive eternal life would make utter nonsense of the Scriptures. Let’s consider a handful of examples:

What the Bible states:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” – Matthew 7:13-14

How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it (though they’ll ultimately be purified and blessed with eternal life). But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it (yet everyone else will eventually find it too).”

What the Bible states:

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna).” – Matthew 10:28

How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:

“Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna) but He will eventually restore these people and grant them eternal life.”

What the Bible states:

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.” – John 3:36

How we’d have to interpret this text if universalism is true:

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him — but he’ll eventually receive eternal life too.”

What the Bible states:

“for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.” – John 5:28-29

How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:

“for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out — those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned, but the latter will eventually rise to live as well.”

What the Bible states:

“The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.”- Galatians 6:8

How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:

The one who sows to please the sinful nature from that nature will reap destruction, but will eventually be restored and granted eternal life; the one who sows to please the spirit, from the spirit will reap eternal life.

What the Bible states:

“There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and destroy.” – James 4:12a

How we’d have to interpret this passage if universalism is true:

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and destroy (but He will ultimately restore and redeem those whom He utterly destroys and grant them eternal life).

I could go on and on here. As you can see, the notion of universal salvation renders the Scriptures utterly nonsensical.
Certainly, as 1 Timothy 2:4 points out, God “wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth;” in fact, this is the very reason why this section of Scripture encourages believers to offer prayers for “everyone” (see verse 1); but what can God do if people freely choose to reject his offer of reconciliation and eternal life in favor of “sin, which leads to death” (Romans 6:16)? I’ve heard the question: Since God is all-powerful could He create a stone so big that he couldn’t move it? The answer is yes, the human heart.

The reason all people can’t be saved is simply because God respects our freewill choices. He did not create robots, so he can’t force people to choose reconciliation and receive eternal life. People who reject God in favor of sin are choosing death, the wages of sin. So God will ultimately accommodate them. Their fate is really self-destruction—almost suicide—because God is only giving them what their freewill actions justly deserve. Will He enjoy this? Of course not. He doesn’t want “anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9).

Another argument that universalists make is that the English words “eternal” and “everlasting” are translated from the Greek word aionios (ayy-OHN-ee-us) which more properly means “age-lasting;” they contend therefore that “eternal punishment” and “everlasting destruction” refer more specifically to ‘punishment that lasts an age’ and ‘destruction that lasts an age.’ Their point is that the punishment and destruction of the ungodly may indeed last an eon of time, but it certainly won’t last forever and ever. They are right about aionios (see Chapter Four) but there are two obvious problems with this argument: 1. “The age to come” spoken of in the Bible (e.g. Mark 10:29-30) is a perpetual age (itself made up of ages according to Ephesians 2:7) and therefore God’s age-lasting punishment of utter destruction will last perpetually. 2. God’s age-lasting punishment of age-lasting destruction is always spoken of in direct contrast to the age-lasting life that God will grant the righteous (e.g. Matthew 25:46), since the age-lasting life that God grants the righteous refers to perpetuity in the eternal age to come we must conclude that the age-lasting destruction of the ungodly will be just as eternal.

There’s no getting around it, universalism is simply incompatible with clear biblical teaching and is therefore not a valid option to consider.

Yet universalism is a popular view held by a growing number of Christians throughout the world. What spurs so many to embrace this erroneous view? The answer is obvious…

For various reasons most of these people have overlooked the doctrine of literal everlasting destruction. Because of religious tradition they naturally assume two erroneous things: 1. that people can never cease to exist because they have “immortal souls,” and 2. that “hell” must refer to never-ending fiery conscious torment. The latter assumption, as already covered, is the ultimate evil—the worst conceivable concept. It is so profoundly disturbing that these people feel they have no recourse but to reject the idea of eternal damnation altogether. Once the idea of hell is discarded the only option left is universalism. The problem with this is that, in accepting universalism, these people are rejecting the authority of God’s Word, which clearly teaches that many are doomed to be cast into the lake of fire to suffer the second death. Rejecting the authority of the Holy Scriptures can lead to nothing but spiritual degeneration and apostasy.

Literal everlasting destruction is the sound medium between the two extremes of eternal torture and universalism. Eternal torture is ridiculously too severe, yet universalism is ridiculously too lenient. Eternal torture is sadistic, immoral and unjust, yet universalism suggests that people can do whatever wicked thing their evil hearts desire and still ultimately be blessed with everlasting life and reconciliation. This would of course make universalism unjust as well. Both these extremes should be rejected in favor of everlasting destruction—the balanced, acceptable, reasonable and scriptural view on the matter......'

 

[quietthinker]

Why not Everyone will be Saved​

A Saviour is only a Saviour if he saves.
Those who drown do so because they didn't want saving. How is that? They were persuaded their Saviour couldn't save them and pushed him away.

 

[Duck Muscles]

There is a false doctrine that teaches all people will be saved, that a good and loving God would not allow any to perish. They come up with many ideas of how this can happen, that after a cleansing period such as another false doctrine, Purgatory, God will free sinners and let them get to heaven, or that there will be multiple raptures so that people will have another opportunity to choose God or another path to Him. So but the Bible doesnt teach this, it tells us clearly there is only one path...

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And He will separate the sheep (saints) from the goats (wicked) at His coming...
Matthew 25:32-34
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

And only the saints will be taken to heaven to be in the Kingdom where Christ has prepared a place for them...
John 14:1-3
1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

So we see that the Kingdom is only for the saints, the chosen, the elect, but the Bible also calls them a remnant...
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

And we find the following also...
Romans 9:27
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

So not all shall be saved, but lets look further into this..

That's an interesting question.

All people are condemned to eternal damnation solely for being born so to later be accountable for their actions called sins.

Why then wouldn't all those same people later be saved when God sacrificed himself to take away those sins?

 

[quietthinker]

All people are condemned to eternal damnation solely for being born so to later be accountable for their actions called sins.

I would assert confidently, the exact opposite.

 

[Duck Muscles]

I would assert confidently, the exact opposite.

OK,go ahead.

 

[quietthinker]

OK,go ahead.

God does not condemn; we condemn ourselves but we blame God. We refuse to take responsibility for our own sh.t.
Humanity in Adam went South; humanity in Jesus sits at the right hand of God. Romans 5 and other texts gives us assurance that God is not mad at us.
The account we have of the Shepherds on Bethlehem's hills tells us the angels sang 'Glory to God in the highest and goodwill towards men'. They told the Shepherds they are bringing good tiding for all men (mankind). You will find the story in Luke 2:1-18

It is our dysfunction, our lack of love, our lack of value for the other, our lack of patience and the speed at which blame arrises from our hearts that has informed our MO (modus operandi) ie, how we operate. We then superimpose that attitude onto God, we ultimately make God in our image.

Human sacrifice was endemic in the ancient world in all the cultures....even the Hebrews. We thought that if we sacrificed something valuable we would appease God's assumed wrath or twist his arm to get what we want. We have even taken our Lord's willingness to lay down his life so he could show us he would rather die than kill, to mean God required a costly sacrifice to appease his wrath. This idea is non other than a projection, a superimposition of our ugliness onto God