Why the great chain?

[Davidpt]

Hmmmm... Let's focus on something else in this passage for just a moment, bdavidc. In verses 1-2 in Revelation 20, John says he "saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain," and this angel "seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him..." So who do think this "angel" to be, bdavidc? I say it's You-Know-Who, who... a little over 2,000 years ago <smile> ...came down from heaven and... per my post above... "bound the strong man," and has been "plundering his house" (Matthew 12:29) ever since... <smile> You know, as if that was unclear from what I said above... <smile>

So, IOW, if JWs claim Jesus is an angel, that is a no no. But if Amils claim Jesus is an angel, that's perfectly ok. After all, verse 1 clearly says angel, does it not?

 

[PinSeeker]

The point you seem to be overlooking is this. During the war in question the rest of the world, the unsaved, are worshiping the beast, thus equals a time when satan is obviously deceiving the nations.

Nobody's overlooking anything, Davidpt. What I ~ and I think Spiiritual Israelite, but he can speak for himself ~ would say is, the rest of the world, the unsaved worshiping the beast is synonymous with what Paul says in Romans 1, that they, the unsaved, have "exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things... exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" (v.25). And this is because they "follow the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience⁠ ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh" ~ and thus "carry out the desires of the flesh and the mind" because they, "the rest of mankind" are "by nature children of wrath" (Ephesians 2). They are deceived by their father the devil, and thus their will is to do the will of the devil himself (John 8, 10), because they are of him, and not of God as those of us who have been born again of the Spirit are.

Revelation 13:11 ¶And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

This is a present reality.

You know, so much of this is just because of the misreading of John's Revelation and thinking it to be absolutely from beginning to end sequential. It is not; it is a series of concurrent visions, each one focusing progressively more and more on the end. Like all of John's writings (his gospel and his epistles), they circle back over the same truths multiple times.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Look at the way you are reasoning things. It is the spreading of the gospel that leads to the salvation of both Jew and Gentile, not the binding of satan. Imagine that, unless satan is bound the spreading of the gospel might be hindered, might be stopped altogether. Then you bring up Matthew 16:18 which proves my point not your point. It clearly says the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Did you even read Matthew 16:18? It says the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. It doesn't say the gates of hell will not prevail against the spreading of the gospel.

Do you believe that the power of death had to be taken away from Satan in order to allow for the spreading of the gospel to the world?

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

If you agree that the power of death had to be taken away from Satan to allow the spreading of the gospel, then that shows that something had to be done in relation to Satan in order to allow the spreading of the gospel. But, here you are acting as if nothing had to be done in relation to Satan in order to allow the spreading of the gospel.

Keeping in mind satan is not bound until he is cast into the LOF,

What are you talking about here? Did you mean the bottomless pit instead of the LOF?

he is loosed after he is bound, then cast into the LOF. Which would then mean if Amil is true, that when satan is loosed it would then = this--- the gates of hell shall prevail against it.

No, that is not what Amil claims. The gates of hell will never prevail against the church. You have proven once again that you don't understand Amil. That's why you misrepresent it so often.

Keeping in mind that Amil apparently insists it's because satan is bound being the reason the gates of hell will not prevail against it.

What was being discussed was the spreading of the gospel, not whether the gates of hell are prevailing against the church.

But guess what? When satan is loosed this clearly means he is no longer bound.

No kidding.

Amil can't have it both ways.

What are you talking about? You are so confused. Amil doesn't say that Satan is still bound when he is loosed. Good grief.

Amil can't insist that because satan is bound the gates of hell will not prevail against the church.

Who is insisting that? What was being discussed was that Satan's binding allows for the spreading of the gospel. If the gospel is hindered that does not mean the gates of hell have prevailed against the church.

And when he is loosed the gates of hell still won't prevail against the church. The latter clearly proving binding satan has zero to do with the gates of hell not prevailing against the church.

Who said otherwise?

 

[bdavidc]

What you fail to explain is how Gentiles from the nations of the world have been and are being saved if Satan who deceives all of them has not yet been bound by the cross and resurrection of Christ?

Yes. It was explained, but I will state it even more plainly so there is no room for confusion.
The question itself is built on a false assumption. Scripture never says Satan must be bound in the Revelation 20 sense before Gentiles can be saved.

Gentiles have always been saved the same way anyone has ever been saved, by God calling individuals out of a deceived world. That was true before the cross and it is true now. Rahab was saved while Jericho was under deception. Nineveh repented while the nations remained wicked. The existence of deception among the nations has never prevented God from saving whom He wills.

Revelation 20 does not say Satan is bound so that no Gentile can ever be saved before that event. It says he is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. That is a global condition, not individual conversion.

Right now Scripture says both things are true at the same time. The nations are still deceived. “The whole world lieth in wickedness” ~1 John 5:19. Satan still blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4. He still opposes the gospel ~1 Thessalonians 2:18. Yet God saves individuals from among those nations through the gospel. Paul says God “delivered us from the power of darkness” ~Colossians 1:13. Deliverance presupposes darkness still exists.

Christ builds His church now not because Satan is already bound from deceiving the nations, but because Christ has all authority. “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” ~Matthew 28:18. Authority to save does not require Satan to be restrained globally.

If Satan were already bound so that he deceives the nations no more, then Revelation 20:7–8 would make no sense when Satan is released and again deceives the nations. That would describe the same condition we already have, which empties the passage of meaning.

So yes, the question was answered. Gentiles are saved now because God calls individuals out of a still-deceived world. Revelation 20 describes a future condition where that global deception ends for a defined time. Scripture itself makes the distinction.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, IOW, if JWs claim Jesus is an angel, that is a no no. But if Amils claim Jesus is an angel, that's perfectly ok. After all, verse 1 clearly says angel, does it not?

LOL. Do you have to misunderstand everything you read? I'm sure PinSeeker is not claiming that Jesus is an angel. The Greek word can mean "messenger" and does not have to refer to an angel. I'm sure PinSeeker sees it in that sense rather than implying that he believes Jesus is an angel.

 

[PinSeeker]

So, IOW, if JWs claim Jesus is an angel, that is a no no.

Right.

But if Amils claim Jesus is an angel...

We don't. But He is portrayed that way not just in Revelation 20 but in other places in Scripture, even in the Old Testament ~ the angel of God, like:

• in Genesis 21:17, for instance: "the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is"
• or in Exodus 14:19, "the angel of God Who was going before the host of Israel moved and went behind them, and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them"
• or 2 Samuel 14:17, where a woman says to Absalom, "my lord the king" (Absalom) "is like the angel of God to discern good and evil. The Lord your God be with you!"
• or in Daniel 3:28, when Nebuchadnezzar says, "Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who has sent His angel and delivered His servants, who trusted in Him."

So, "the angel of God" should be understood in the sense that Jesus is the King of angels…the supremacy of Christ over angels is a significant theme in throughout the Bible, emphasizing His divine nature and authority, and this is primarily derived from the New Testament, where Christ is depicted as superior to all celestial beings, including angels, but also the Old. You see?

...that's perfectly ok.

Not to think of Jesus as merely an angel, no, because that's not the case. He's the King of

After all, verse 1 clearly says angel, does it not?

Yes, but... <smile> ...see above.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. It was explained, but I will state it even more plainly so there is no room for confusion.
The question itself is built on a false assumption. Scripture never says Satan must be bound in the Revelation 20 sense before Gentiles can be saved.

Do you think anything had to be done in relation to Satan in order to allow for Gentiles to be saved on a larger scale instead of just a few Gentiles being saved here and there as was the case in Old Testament times?

Would you agree that the power of death had to be taken from him in order for that to happen?

Hebrews 2:14 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

 

[PinSeeker]

If Satan were already bound so that he deceives the nations no more, then Revelation 20:7–8 would make no sense when Satan is released and again deceives the nations.

Can that not be read and understood correctly ~ according to the exact text ~ as Satan being released to deceive the nations, yes, but is unsuccessful regarding any nation or anyone in or of those nations not already deceived? I mean, you may still disagree but if you are honest I think you have to answer ‘yes’ to that, that it can be read that way, and at least possibly be a correct understanding.

That would describe the same condition we already have, which empties the passage of meaning.

If we understand it according to how you do, maybe, but maybe you will not continue to see it that way. <smile>

Gentiles are saved now because God calls individuals out of a still-deceived world.

Absolutely. All who are saved, even since Adam annd the events of Genesis 3 are saved the same way. By grace through faith, as Hebrews 11 says.

Revelation 20 describes a future condition where that global deception ends for a defined time.

Ah well, yes and no, I guess; no, in the sense that those who are deceived will remain so.

Scripture itself makes the distinction.

Right. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[bdavidc]

Right, and I suggested no such thing. Any difference among Christians does not really answer to the text at all in and of itself, except to say that if there are two opposing views/understandings/interpretations of a text, then either one is right and the other wrong, or both are wrong. They cannot both be right.


Yeah, I don't... even know... why you feel compelled to say that. But sure. <smile>


I'm not talking about personal experience, bdavidc, I'm talking about who and what you and I both (I think; I know about me, of course) are. If you ARE a Gentile Christian/believer, then you yourself are living proof that Satan is bound from deceiving the... "nations," which, if you look back through Scripture, especially in the Old Testament, you should be able to quickly surmise that 'nations' refers to all people-groups outside of Israel. Satan absolutely cannot ~ since Jesus came to "proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed" (Isaiah 61, Luke 4) ~ prevent the spread of the Gospel to the ends of the earth.


Absolutely. It absolutely does. But yet so many still misunderstand it. I'm not saying you do, but so it is.


It is. The "nations" contain... individual Gentiles. <smile> Even the political entity... nation-state... Israel contains Gentiles, which we can see from Paul's statement in Romans 9:6 that "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel." Which brings up this: Paul, in Romans 9-11, talks about God's elect. And keep in mind that Paul, in different letters and in different ways, says ethnicity has no bearing on being one of God's elect or on salvation, that those who are saved (have been born again of the Spirit) are all one in Christ.


So, when we hear 'nations' in Scripture, bdavidc, we should not understand that to mean nation-states or political entities, or bordered geographical entities (countries). <smile> It is a collective term, covering "all tribes and peoples and languages," (Revelation 7:9) in Biblical terms ... people groups.


Well, it testifies that not all elect Gentiles are brought into God's Israel yet, right. And the partial hardening that is on Israel has not been completely removed yet. But it will be... <smile> So, right, I agree with what you say here, but in a bit different way than you apparenltly do. There are still Gentiles out there who are yet to be brought into God's Israel. But every single Gentile believer in Christ out there is absolute proof that Satan cannot do a thing to prevent the Gospel from reaching him or her and God building His Israel in that way.


Disagree. This misunderstanding of Satan's "binding" is... well, you're not alone. <smile> Let's just talk about the word 'bound' there in Revelation 20:3. The only other place in all of Scripture where that word shows up, that speaks to Satan's being "bound," is in what Jesus Himself says in Matthew 12. Jesus says to the Pharisees there, "how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house" (Matthew 12:29). What we should see there, bdavidc, is that Jesus is that "Someone" and Satan is the "strong man," and we are ~ were, actually, if we have been born again of the Spirit ~ those "goods" who have been "plundered" from the strong man's "house." If we are to see that, then we must see that the "strong man"... again, Satan... has been bound.


Okay, well, we disagree. <smile> Although I agree about the "argument" part; there is no argument, it just... is what it is. <smile>


Okay, well, I say the Gospel advances despite Satan's activity... on that we agree... Think of it even in earthly terms, that even a prisoner in a maximum-security prison can exert influence on and in the outside world through various means, "prowling about" and active in that way; so it is, albeit on a spiritual scale, with Satan. Satan is absolutely powerless, though, to prevent the spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles, the nations. Thus Jesus's mandate to His disciples, which includes by extension all of us followers of Christ, to "go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded us" (Matthew 28:20). You see? There it is... "nations." If we think of a nation as a nation-state, a political entity, a geographical landmass, then... how in the world do you baptize a nation or teach it to observe what Christ has commanded?


Of course. See above.


Well, it does if Revelation 20 is... mis-defined. <smile>


Right. And so does Revelation 20.


Disagree. I am not a futurist. <smile> And actually, let me clarify that: Revelation 20:1-6 describes a present reality that is being brought to a close, so, in that sense, past, present, and future (because it is not yet finished). Why do you believe it to be future only, bdavidc? Why?


No, it just is what it is.


Agreed.


Agreed.


Disagree. <smile> Because... what is happening now, and has been since Jesus's advent, and will be until what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26 is finished/complete, is a very present reality.


Agreed. Or by misunderstanding it. <smile>


Absolutely. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

PinSeeker, the disagreement here is not over whether Gentiles can be saved. Scripture is settled on that. The disagreement is over what Revelation 20 actually says the binding accomplishes.

Revelation does not say Satan is bound so that some Gentiles may be saved. It says he is bound “that he should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. That is a global condition, not an individual outcome. Scripture itself defines what that condition looks like, and it does not describe the present age.

Right now, John states without qualification that “the whole world lieth in wickedness” ~1 John 5:19. Paul says Satan is actively “the god of this world” who “blinds the minds of them which believe not” ~2 Corinthians 4:4. Peter warns believers that the devil “walketh about, seeking whom he may devour” ~1 Peter 5:8. Those statements describe active, ongoing deception of the world, not a restrained deceiver who can no longer deceive the nations.

Appealing to Matthew 12 does not resolve this. Jesus binding the strong man explains His authority to plunder individuals from Satan’s domain. It does not redefine Revelation 20’s stated result. Revelation 20 is explicit about what the binding produces. The text does not say Satan is bound in one sense but free in another. It says the binding prevents deception of the nations. That has never existed yet.

The Great Commission itself proves the point. Jesus commands the gospel to be preached to all nations precisely because the nations are deceived and must be confronted with truth ~Matthew 28:19. Paul describes this entire period as “this present evil world” ~Galatians 1:4, not a restored age where deception has ceased.

Gentile salvation proves God’s power, not Satan’s restraint. The gospel advances despite satanic opposition, not because Satan is neutralized. Paul preached while Satan actively resisted him ~1 Thessalonians 2:18. That is not a bound adversary in the Revelation 20 sense.

Romans 11 does not reinterpret Revelation 20. It explains God’s saving purpose during an age where Israel is partially hardened and the nations are still deceived. When Revelation 20’s binding occurs, it produces a worldwide condition Scripture elsewhere describes as peace, knowledge of the Lord filling the earth, and nations no longer deceived ~Isaiah 11:9, ~Isaiah 2:2–4.

The issue is not futurism versus non-futurism. The issue is letting Revelation define its own outcome. The result described in Revelation 20 has not happened yet. Scripture, taken as a whole, testifies to that plainly.

Grace and peace are not preserved by redefining the text. The Word of God settles this whether it fits a system or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The point you seem to be overlooking is this. During the war in question the rest of the world, the unsaved, are worshiping the beast, thus equals a time when satan is obviously deceiving the nations.

This discussion is pointless because we disagree on what it means for Satan to deceive the nations (ethnos). In the way I understand that, it's perfectly reasonable that Satan can make war on the saints at the same time he is bound because I don't see his binding as being a case of him being completely incapacitated as you do. In the way you understand that, that isn't possible for Satan to make war while being bound because your understanding of his binding is that it leaves him completely incapacitated and unable to do anything. So, as long as we disagree on what Satan's binding means, we will continue to just talk past each other instead of to each other when it comes to this topic. You will not even talk about this topic for the sake of argument from my perspective of Satan's binding, so that makes trying to talk to you about this topic a complete waste of time.

 

[bdavidc]

You are interpreting the text contained within the most highly symbolic book in the Bible as literally as you possibly can. That is not reading what is written, that is you deciding to use a flawed hyper-literal interpretive approach to the text. And, you are a Premillennialist whether you want to be identified as such or not because you believe the thousand years follows Christ's return.

Scripture has been stated plainly and compared with Scripture. The condition described in Revelation 20 does not match the present world ~1 John 5:19. I will not repeat arguments or debate systems. This is my final reply.

 

[bdavidc]

Hmmmm... Let's focus on something else in this passage for just a moment, bdavidc. In verses 1-2 in Revelation 20, John says he "saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain," and this angel "seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him..." So who do think this "angel" to be, bdavidc? I say it's You-Know-Who, who... a little over 2,000 years ago <smile> ...came down from heaven and... per my post above... "bound the strong man," and has been "plundering his house" (Matthew 12:29) ever since... <smile> You know, as if that was unclear from what I said above... <smile>


So, by Scripture's own words, that is what's happening in this world today. <smile>


Well, the "system" is was built long ago, and one can be an advocate of it, regardless of whether he consciously subscribes to it or not. <smile>


Yes, but reading what is written and understanding what is written correctly are two different things. <smile> It is absolutely possible to do the former and erroneously do the latter. I ask again, as I did shortly ago in my post preceding this one... why... why... do you believe it to be future only, bdavidc? Why?

Grace and peace.

You are no longer submitting to Scripture. You are reshaping it. The text does not say the angel is Jesus. That is your assertion, not John’s. Scripture repeatedly identifies Christ plainly when He appears. Revelation 20 does not. Adding “You-Know-Who” where the Bible is silent is not insight. It is eisegesis.

Matthew 12 does not cancel Revelation 20. Jesus binding the strong man explains rescue of individuals from Satan’s grip. Revelation 20 describes a global restraint with a stated result. “That he should deceive the nations no more” ~Revelation 20:3. When he is loosed, he “shall go out to deceive the nations” ~Revelation 20:8. That is not poetry. That is cause and effect.

You keep asking why I say it is future. Because Scripture says the world is still deceived. “The whole world lieth in wickedness” ~1 John 5:19. Satan still blinds minds ~2 Corinthians 4:4. He still prowls ~1 Peter 5:8. A deceiving world and a non-deceived world cannot exist at the same time.

This is not about systems. It is about submission. When Scripture defines a condition and the present world does not match it, the honest response is not reinterpretation but humility.


At this point, you are defending a conclusion rather than obeying the text. The Word of God does not need rescuing. It needs believing. I have answered from Scripture. I will not argue past that.

 

[rwb]

According to Genesis 2 and 3, what humans, who for a fact were in the garden at the time, do we know were there? The Man(Adam) and the Woman(Eve). The account mentions no more humans. Who was it then that the woman was conversing with in Genesis 3:2-5? Was she conversing with herself or something? Did she maybe have multiple personalities?

And finally, how many judgments did it involve? Just 2? Keeping in mind only 2 humans in the garden at the time. Isn't the real truth that 3 entities were judged not just 2? So who was this 3rd entity? Was it one of the woman's multiple personalities? Such as "Sybil: Famous multiple personality case?

1) Genesis 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel


2) 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

3) 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.


2 humans in the garden at the time, yet 3 judgments. And you want us to believe absurd nonsense that satan isn't a created being. That maybe judgment 1) above was in regards to one of the woman's multiple personalities. Since I'm certain that 1 + 1 +1 does not equal 2. It equals 3. Maybe where you come from it equals 2. But not where I come from. Therefore, your heretical nonsense is debunked. The fact that there is this proposed nonsense to begin with is pure nonsense alone.

And guess what? It looks like I just proved all things from Genesis 2 and 3 alone.

David, what happened to the spirit of A&E when they sinned against God's command and listened to the words of the serpent?

They had been given life everlasting through the breath (Spirit) of God when they were created, with the warning that they would die when they disobeyed God. They could not die as long as their life continued through the Spirit of God in them. Since they did die, clearly the life-giving Spirit that created them in the spiritual image and likeness of God departed from them, and they continued to be physically alive through another evil spirit sent from God. This evil spirit can only impart physical life but has no ability to give life FOREVER. As long as man remains in darkness and unbelief, they are ALL destined to die the second death!

1 Samuel 16:14-15 (KJV) But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him. And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

This is the spirit of Satan that every human possesses at birth from the fall, and the reason that every man is ordained to die. No longer is humankind born in the likeness and image of the Spirit of God. We are all, like Adam's son Seth, born after the likeness and image of our biological parents with evil natural/earthly spirit (breath of life). This is why Scripture shows us that we are from birth sinful. As we are alive through natural spirit of this world, so too we, from the fall have a spirit (breath of life) that is after the image and likeness of our master, Satan. This will never change until we are born again and the evil spirit cast out through the Spirit of Christ entering in us!

Genesis 5:3 (KJV) And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

Psalm 51:5 (KJV) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:2-5 (KJV) Yea, in heart ye work wickedness; ye weigh the violence of your hands in the earth. The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear; Which will not hearken to the voice of charmers, charming never so wisely.

Ephesians 2:3 (KJV) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

According to Scripture Satan is a liar and murderer from the beginning. No verse tells us that this demonic spirit was ever anything else but evil. Yes, Satan is spirit and able to do works of evil and live through humans he and his spiritual hosts enter into. The question is, did God create him? Or did this spirit we call Satan come from the darkness that was in the beginning upon the face of the deep? Did God create the darkness, since Scripture tells us that all that was created in heaven and earth was created by God, very good?

Here is how Strong's defines darkness:

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
2822. חֹשֶׁךְ choshek (chôshek)
Search for H2822 in KJVSL; in KJV; load in ESI.

חֹשֶׁךְ chôshek, kho-shek'

from H2821; the dark; hence (literally) darkness; figuratively, misery, destruction, death, ignorance, sorrow, wickedness:—dark(-ness), night, obscurity.

According to the prophet Isaiah, God creates darkness and evil as well as peace. This tells me the darkness that was upon the face of the deep when God created the heaven and the earth was created by God. But to my knowledge there are no verses that explicitly say when God created this darkness, yet we know it was there at creation.

Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

I believe the darkness and evil God created for His purposes was created by God before everything that he had made in the six days of all that is in heaven and the earth. When God created light, He did not dispel the darkness, rather God created light and divided it from the darkness that was there. I also believe the darkness that was over the face of the deep is symbolic of the evil spirit we call Satan as well as many other names that define evil beings. God did not utterly dispel this evil spirit, because it was through this spirit of darkness that God would try/test humankind. That's why we find this evil spirit influencing and deceiving A&E from the beginning of creation. God created A&E with complete autonomy, and of their own free will they chose to disobey the Creator, choosing instead to make themselves slaves of evil, condemning all of humankind to die. This was all ordained by God from before the foundation of the world, when God knew that no created being would willfully submit to Him for everlasting life. God knowing man would always choose death rather than submission, which is why the Covenant of Redemption ordained in eternity foretells the perfect Lamb of God to save His people from their sins.

Every human is born under the power of their father, the spirit being Satan, destined to die in their sins unless before they die, they are born again through the Spirit of Christ Who shall give all who believe in Him eternal life. As long as man is fallen in darkness and unbelief, they are one with the evil spirit Satan as sons and daughters.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Scripture has been stated plainly and compared with Scripture. The condition described in Revelation 20 does not match the present world ~1 John 5:19. I will not repeat arguments or debate systems. This is my final reply.

Not as you understand it, but your understanding that the binding of Satan prevents him from deceiving at all is flawed. And you never answered my question about what you think Satan is able to do while bound since you did say that you don't believe he is completely incapacitated while bound, as pretty much every other Premillennialist believes.

You seem to interpret Revelation 20 in isolation from the rest of scripture, but you should use more clear scriptures to help interpret Revelation 20. Other scripture teaches that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection, so that should be taken into account. Other scripture teaches that all of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time/hour, so that needs to be taken into account. Other scripture teaches that all people will be judged when Jesus returns at the end of the age (Matt 13:40-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46), so that has to be taken into account. Other scripture teaches that all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-8, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18), so that has to be taken into account. But, it does not appear that you take any of those things into account, which is typical of Premillennialists.

 

[Marty fox]

Let's break the first 3 verses down like such.

A) an angel comes down from heaven

B) having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

C) And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan

D) and bound him a thousand years,

E) And cast him into the bottomless pit

F) and shut him up

G) and set a seal upon him

H) that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled

I) and after that he must be loosed a little season

Does not the great chain in his hand accomplish D)? Isn't that what a chain typically does? Binds something?

And what about A) and C)? In order to accomplish C), doesn't A) have to be fulfilled first? In order to lay hold on and cast into, doesn't this require that what is being laid hold of is dwelling where the one meant in A) is coming down to? Where is the one in A) coming down to? The earth, obviously. Already the scene is not heaven, it is the earth. Since it is absurd that to come down from heaven does not mean to come down to the earth. But that it means to come down from heaven to heaven.

Which then raises the question. Why would satan be dwelling on the earth and when did he initially start doing so? Doesn't the following tell us exactly that?

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 ¶Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


When Revelation 20:1-3 is initially meaning, it has to be meaning after verses 7-12 have been fulfilled first since this clearly has satan dwelling upon the earth.

Yet look what happens next.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Notice what the text says--when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth. Obviously meaning right after he is cast unto the earth since it would be absurd that he doesn't notice he was cast unto the earth until sometime much later, rather than at that time.

Then notice what happens once he sees he has been cast unto the earth--- And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ


Seriously, does any of that even remotely sound like anything recorded in Revelation 20:1-3?

If you think it does, then point out the similarities. Keep in mind, before satan is cast unto the earth, before the war in heaven, satan was doing this at the time, for one--

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Does any of that sound like anything in Revelation 20:1-3, that the thousand years involved the days of Job? The point I'm trying to bring out is this. There are only 2 places satan's binding can fit. Either before the war in heaven before he is cast unto the earth. Or after the war in heaven when he is cast unto the earth. As to the latter there are 2 options, actually.

Option 1) Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.


Option 2) Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

As to option 1, meaning at that time.

As to option 2, meaning after this war is fulfilled first, the same war Revelation 13:7 is involving.

You know full well that we don't think the binding is what you are saying the binding is here

 

[rwb]

Why can't they instead refer to the saved that fall away?

Because there is no such thing as one who has been ETERNALLY saved to fall away!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You know full well that we don't think the binding is what you are saying the binding is here

He has no understanding of Amil and that's why he misrepresents it so often. He tries to argue against it, but it's not possible to argue against something that he doesn't even understand.

 

[Marty fox]

My guess is that it's called a bottomless pit(abussos) because the depth of it can't be known. Not that it's literally bottomless. But that t is so deep, it's a if it has no bottom. Maybe think of it like the following, for example.

If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath(Jeremiah 31:37)

Isaiah 40:12 Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?

As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, neither the sand of the sea measured(Jeremiah 33:22)

Try thinking about the bottomless pit along these lines. The pit is not literally bottomless. Yet it is as if it is bottomless since it's depths can't be searched out. Therefore, the pit indeed can be literal without it having to be literally bottomless.

First satan is cast unto the earth. Then later he is cast into the bottomless pit(abussos), the same pit(abussos) the locusts in Revelation 9 are imprisoned in until a star(angel) falls from heaven and opens the pit. Why any of that if there is no literal pit(abussos) involved?

And as to these locusts that emerge, where are they now? I see no hint of them. Therefore, since they obviously exist, whatever they are, in the meantime it's as if they don't exist, the fact the pit(abussos) is obviously doing what it was designed to do. Imprisoning with no escape until the pit(abussos) is opened.

--------------------------
Matthew 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos).
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Now just put 2 and 2 together here. This legion of demons fear being cast into the deep(abussos) and equate it with Jesus tormenting them before their time. That really makes a whole lot of sense if the pit is not literal in some sense, not.

All Amil seems to want to do in a lot of cases is make nonsense out of some of these things rather than trying to make sense out of some of these things instead.

So you do think that the bottomless pit is described as symbolic then?

These locus arn't demonice beings they were the Roman army that came against Jerusalem in 70AD as shown below

Joel 2

An Army of Locusts​

1 Blow the trumpet in Zion;
sound the alarm on my holy hill.
Let all who live in the land tremble,
for the day of the Lord is coming.
It is close at hand—
2 a day of darkness and gloom,
a day of clouds and blackness.
Like dawn spreading across the mountains
a large and mighty army comes,
such as never was in ancient times
nor ever will be in ages to come.
3 Before them fire devours,
behind them a flame blazes.
Before them the land is like the garden of Eden,
behind them, a desert waste—
nothing escapes them.
4 They have the appearance of horses;
they gallop along like cavalry.
5 With a noise like that of chariots
they leap over the mountaintops,
like a crackling fire consuming stubble,
like a mighty army drawn up for battle.
6 At the sight of them, nations are in anguish;
every face turns pale.
7 They charge like warriors;
they scale walls like soldiers.
They all march in line,
not swerving from their course.
8 They do not jostle each other;
each marches straight ahead.
They plunge through defenses
without breaking ranks.
9 They rush upon the city;
they run along the wall.
They climb into the houses;
like thieves they enter through the windows.
10 Before them the earth shakes,
the heavens tremble,
the sun and moon are darkened,
and the stars no longer shine.
11 The Lord thunders
at the head of his army;
his forces are beyond number,
and mighty is the army that obeys his command.
The day of the Lord is great;
it is dreadful.
Who can endure it?

Rend Your Heart​

12 “Even now,” declares the Lord,
“return to me with all your heart,
with fasting and weeping and mourning.”
13 Rend your heart
and not your garments.
Return to the Lord your God,
for he is gracious and compassionate,
slow to anger and abounding in love,
and he relents from sending calamity.
14 Who knows? He may turn and relent
and leave behind a blessing—
grain offerings and drink offerings
for the Lord your God.
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
declare a holy fast,
call a sacred assembly.
16 Gather the people,
consecrate the assembly;
bring together the elders,
gather the children,
those nursing at the breast.
Let the bridegroom leave his room
and the bride her chamber.
17 Let the priests, who minister before the Lord,
weep between the portico and the altar.
Let them say, “Spare your people, Lord.
Do not make your inheritance an object of scorn,
a byword among the nations.
Why should they say among the peoples,
‘Where is their God?’”

The Lord’s Answer​

18 Then the Lord was jealous for his land
and took pity on his people.
19 The Lord replied[a] to them:

“I am sending you grain, new wine and olive oil,
enough to satisfy you fully;
never again will I make you
an object of scorn to the nations.
20 “I will drive the northern horde far from you,
pushing it into a parched and barren land;
its eastern ranks will drown in the Dead Sea
and its western ranks in the Mediterranean Sea.
And its stench will go up;
its smell will rise.”
Surely he has done great things!
21 Do not be afraid, land of Judah;
be glad and rejoice.
Surely the Lord has done great things!
22 Do not be afraid, you wild animals,
for the pastures in the wilderness are becoming green.
The trees are bearing their fruit;
the fig tree and the vine yield their riches.
23 Be glad, people of Zion,
rejoice in the Lord your God,
for he has given you the autumn rains
because he is faithful.
He sends you abundant showers,
both autumn and spring rains, as before.
24 The threshing floors will be filled with grain;
the vats will overflow with new wine and oil.
25 “I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten—
the great locust and the young locust,
the other locusts and the locust swarm[b]—
my great army that I sent among you.
26 You will have plenty to eat, until you are full,
and you will praise the name of the Lord your God,
who has worked wonders for you;
never again will my people be shamed.
27 Then you will know that I am in Israel,
that I am the Lord your God,
and that there is no other;
never again will my people be shamed.

The Day of the Lord​

28 “And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.[c]

Peter even confirms it below and even uses the same words and states that it starte din his days

Acts 2

Peter Addresses the Crowd
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’[c]

 

[rwb]

Fair enough but are you able please to provide a link to where I can learn more about that theology? Thank you in advance!

Unfortunately, there is none.

Tertullian (160 - 220) was the first of the church fathers who taught that Satan was a fallen angel, by quoting Ezekiel 28 (Against Marcion 2:10).

The Fall of Satan - Does the Bible teach it?​

Julian Spriggs M.A.​

The purpose of this article is to study the two passages in the Old Testament that are frequently used to teach that Satan is a fallen angel. The intention is to consider the two passages, setting them in their literary and historical context, to see whether this is a legitimate interpretation.

The two passages are: 1) Isaiah 14:12-15, a taunt against the king of Babylon. 2) Ezekiel 28:11-19, a lament about the king of Tyre. Because Satan is not specifically named in either passage, we should be cautious about making any claim that they are describing Satan. This would be an interpretation of the text, which is open to different opinions, rather then a direct observation. It is also important to note that both of these passages are written in poetry, using the vivid picture language and imagery typically employed by the OT prophets.

The popular teaching on the fall of Satan​

The popular teaching about the fall of Satan normally follows this, or a similar, outline: Satan was once a beautiful angel, the greatest of all created beings. He rebelled against God and became the devil before man was created. Originally there were three archangels, Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer; each ruled one third of the angels. Michael and Gabriel remained faithful to God, but Satan rebelled, taking one third of the angels with him, who became the demonic forces.

Some teach that Satan was the heavenly choirmaster, with musical instruments built into his body. This is supported from Ezekiel 28:13: "the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created". However this translation is only found in the King James Version (KJV). The NKJV is very similar. The NRSV renders it: "and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings", with a foot-note indicating that the meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain. The NIV is as follows: “Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.”, also with a footnote saying that the meaning of the Hebrew is uncertain.

Some also teach that there was a population of humans on the earth before Adam, known as the pre-adamic race, which Lucifer was given authority over. They rebelled and were judged by a flood, and Lucifer became Satan. After judgement, the earth was remade as described in Genesis chapters 1 and 2. This is part of the 'gap theory', which is an attempt to combine the Genesis account with the theory of evolution by saying there was a very long gap in time between the first two verses in Genesis.

Two other passages of scripture are used to support this teaching. The first is Luke 10:18, He (Jesus) said to them (the seventy sent out into the harvest-field), "I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning”. However when studied in context, this does not refer to a fall of Satan before the beginning of time, but to the effect the mission of the seventy had on the powers of darkness, when they said, “Lord, in your name even the demons submit to us!” (Lk 10:17).

The second is Revelation 12:1-12, in which John sees a vision of the great red dragon, who is identified as, “that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan” (v9). Michael and his angels fought against Satan, the deceiver of the whole world, who was thrown down to earth and his angels with him. The timing of this dramatic event is indicated in verse 10, when the loud voice in heaven says: "now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Messiah, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down". This did not happen at the beginning of time, but at the cross, where Jesus brought salvation, demonstrated the power of the kingdom and defeated the enemy. Jesus made a similar statement shortly before his death, “Now is the judgement of the world; now the ruler of this world (Satan) be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth (on the cross), will draw all people to myself” (John 12:31).
It is questionable whether either the Luke 10, or the Revelation 12 passage describe a fall of Satan from heaven before the beginning of time, but more apparent that both describe the defeat of Satan achieved by the ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus.

There are references to fallen angels in Jude 6 and 2 Peter 2:4, but no indication is given that Satan was associated with them or that he fell at the same time. Both these passages are more probably referring to the rather mysterious account of the time when the sons of God lusted after the daughters of men (Gen 6:1-4). Both Peter and Jude use this event as a warning about false teachers. There are no other passages in the Bible which give a clear and unambiguous teaching about the origin of Satan, or of a fall of Satan from a place of glory.

continued

 

[rwb]

Is Lucifer a name for Satan?​

The name 'Lucifer' only appears in Isaiah 14:12. The Hebrew word is 'helel', meaning 'the shining one'. In the Septuagint (LXX), the translation of the OT into Greek, it was translated 'heosphoros', meaning 'the light-bearer'. The first time it was translated as 'Lucifer' was in the Latin Vulgate Bible (AD 382-404), “Quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer, qui mane oriebaris?”. In Latin, 'Lucifer' was the name of the planet Venus, the morning star, from a word meaning 'bright light' or 'light-bearer'. Venus is the brightest planet in the sky (brighter than any of the stars), and is still known as the morning star.

In English translations, Wyclif was the first to translate Isaiah 14:12 as 'Lucifer', presumably because he translated from the Latin Vulgate, “A! Lucifer, that risidist eerli, hou feldist thou doun fro heuene;”. (In more modern English, it would read as follows: Ah! Lucifer, that rises early, how you have fallen down from heaven). This translation was followed by the KJV, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”, and more recently by the NKJV, “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!”

Other translations translate it as 'day star', or 'bright morning star'. The RV: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of the morning!”, the RSV: "How you are fallen from heaven O Day Star, son of Dawn!”, the NEB: “How you have fallen from heaven, bright morning star”, the NRSV: "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!”, the NIV: "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!”, and the GNB: "King of Babylonia, bright morning star, you have fallen from heaven”. Luther translated it into German, “du schöner Morgenstern”, meaning, “you beautiful morning star”.

Isaiah uses it as a name for the king of Babylon who had set himself among the gods. Babylonian worship was strongly based on astrology. Both the Babylonians and the Assyrians personified the morning star (Venus) as Ishtar. The message of Isaiah is that none of the Babylonian gods are able to save the king, as all gods are powerless before the One True God. In the Ancient Near East it was common practice for kings to believe they were incarnations of gods. So, when a king was defeated in battle and his city was captured, it was a sign that their god had also been defeated by the more powerful god of the victorious enemy. The enemy would normally tear down images of the god, and take them captive, placing them in the temple of their own god to demonstrate its superior power. This would explain why the Philistines placed the captured ark of the covenant in the temple of their god Dagon (1 Sam 5:1-2). Jesus calls himself “the bright morning star” in Rev 22:16, and is referred to as “the morning star” in 2 Peter 1:19.

Isaiah 14:12-20​

Isaiah chapters 13 to 23 contain prophecies against the pagan nations. Chapters 13 and 14 are prophecies specifically against the pride of Babylon, made 150 years before the rise of the empire. The most significant king of Babylon was Nebuchadnezzar. The kings who followed him were insignificant, with there only being five kings in a period of 23 years. The prophecies in Is 13-14 fit the character of the Babylonian empire, specifically king Nebuchadnezzar, perfectly.

Chapter 14:2-23 is a taunt against the king of Babylon, which Israel should take up after they have been restored to the land and have rest from their pain and turmoil (14:1-3). There is peace on earth, but Sheol (the land of the dead) is stirred up (14:9) as the dead world leaders are astonished when they greet the king of Babylon, saying that he has become as weak as they. His pomp has been brought down to Sheol. The passage often claimed to be a description of the fall of Satan is contained in this taunt. The one who laid the nations low (v12) will also be brought down to Sheol (v15), where the dead will ponder over him, asking if this is the man who made the earth tremble (v16).

The king of Babylon was the one who, “laid the nations low” (14:12). This is precisely what Nebuchadnezzar did when he expanded his empire by conquering the known world. Isaiah said that he said in his heart that, “I will ascend to heaven” (14:13). This is translated as the “tops of the clouds” in the NIV. This phrase does not necessarily speak about Satan exalting himself to heaven, but is often used poetically to describe excessive pride, as seen in the following examples: Daniel said to Nebuchadnezzar: "Your greatness has increased and reaches to heaven." (Dan 4:22). Jesus asked Capernaum, "Will you be exalted to heaven?" (Mt 11:23).

There are five statements of the king exalting himself, each saying, “I will ...” (14:13-14). These also fit Nebuchadnezzar’s character perfectly, so it does not have to be describing an angelic being. Isaiah says that he is “brought down to Sheol, to the depths of the Pit” (14:15). Sheol was the place of the dead in the OT. This verse describes Nebuchadnezzar’s death and the surprise of the dead kings in Sheol who greeted him, rather than Satan being brought down to earth. The same picture is given in the previous oracle, when the dead kings express surprise of Nebuchadnezzar becoming as weak as them (14:9-11).

He is described as, “he man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms?” (14:16). Nebuchadnezzar certainly did this through military conquest. It is difficult to see how Satan could be described as a man who shook kingdoms. He also, “made the world a desert and overthrew its cities” (14:17). Famine and starvation accompanied the invading armies of Nebuchadnezzar, when many cities through the Middle East, including Jerusalem, were overthrown. He was also the one, “who would not let his prisoners go home” (14:17). This fits the policy of Nebuchadnezzar who deported captured peoples and made them settle in camps outside the city of Babylon (Ezek 1:1).

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