Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Made me giggle for sure PatThey party like it's 1999?
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Made me giggle for sure PatThey party like it's 1999?
No sir, like I said it is defined. How did God define the lake of fire? A key to understanding is found by reading Rev 20:14, do you see now what it means?My belief and understanding is that the Lake of Fire is a tool for change, perhaps even a punitive tool but also for the purpose of refinement and restoration, not endless torture.
Faithful believers are saved from the Lake of Fire. ALL are saved from eternal death.
That is correct PatFaithful believers are saved from the Lake of Fire.
What do you mean all sir?ALL are saved from eternal death.
Are you sure?
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (Revelation 20:13)
But the Lord Jesus Christ said:
“…whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” (John 11:26)
Boy, the word of God is amazing!
Yes sir, as you showed by your passage, it will be emptied through the resurrection, and then reading the next verse since inherited death is gone, no more need for hell, so they are cast into the lake of fire, gone forever, history, past tense, yesterday's news.Are you sure?
“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.” (Revelation 20:13)
Of course timing is the key here, no doubt you don't believe Jesus was wrong, so then what did he mean since every individual he said that to is dead. He either meant that none of them there believed in him, or there would be a time when those who believed in him would be given eternal life. That is why the Bible has to be taken as a whole sir.But the Lord Jesus Christ said:
“…whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?” (John 11:26)
Amen to that Michiah, fer sher.Boy, the word of God is amazing!
Nicely said, thanks for sharing.Jesus/Y'shuah did NOT describe what it was like in sheol. He was using an allegory to teach resurrection.
Sheol is a term used in the Tanakh to describe the place of darkness following death. Google it.
Y'shuah WOULD NOT and DID NOT EVER depart from the Tanakh (OT) when He taught ideas based upon scripture. True, He did use allegory and hypotheticals framed within the context of a debate, but those methods were common tools employed by rabbinical disciplines of which Jesus was one. It's a teaching tool still used today. (Not in American schools, obviously. American students are NOT taught to actually think. In fact, quite the opposite.)
Consider this - if sheol is a place of darkness and 'sleep', how can discussions and debates occur there? They cannot. Therefore Y'shuah was using an allegory to teach resurrection - LIFE AMONG THE LIVING.
Following Y'shuah's death upon the cross, scripture says He entered sheol and MADE PROCLAMATION (1 Peter 3:19). We do not know what Y'shuah said during His brief sojourn there. There's no reference to an actual visit other than the very short one quoted above. The Apostle's Creed, recited by many church congregations, also mentions Y'shuah's trip to the sub-basement of reality. The creed doesn't say anything about social activities in sheol either.
EXACTLY what happens in sheol is not known nor is it referred to in scripture other than as a place where nothing happens, nothing is seen and nothing is normally heard. As an aside it should also be noted that several hundred people ALSO rose from the dead on the day Y'shuah resurrected. (Matthew 27:53) This particular event is not generally known or preached about. What did Y'shuah 'proclaim' in sheol? Did it have something to do with several hundred dead who also shared in His resurrection on the day Y'shuah escaped His tomb? To be honest, we do not know.
Inventing a major doctrine out of an off-hand reference to a non-existent discussion in sheol, a place where the Bible says NOTHING HAPPENS, is not a valid justification for eternal torment.
Hope this helps.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
Jews don't use the name of G-od because they fear it would be in vain... Because they assume they are sinners and are not in the right mindset to speak his holy name.Back in the day I called this Essay “The fate of the Hebrew scriptures”
At the close of the Hebrew texts the Jews find themselves under, more or less the friendly rule of the Persians after they had conquered the Babylonians.
At this point the Hebrew texts are in the process of being modified by the Jews. (500 BC +-) So the changes in the Hebrew texts in their journey to become the Christian Old Testament is not entirely under the influence of Christianity.
Now nailing down to who it was that decided to modify the Hebrew texts is impossible and that goes for all of the changes to the Hebrew texts. So the phrase, “For various, really unknown reasons, someone decided to make massive changes to the Hebrew texts.”….that is about the most accurate way of putting it.
The removal of God’s name from the scriptures
To start with the Israelites / Jews had several names for Yahweh….the one proper name for God that was written in the Hebrew texts was the Tetragrammaton YHWH which probably was the phonic spelling of how His name sounded. There were other names for Yahweh but this was considered the proper name for God.
Supposedly the Jews eventually came to believe that the commandment to not use the Lord's name in vain, meant that God did not want His name ever uttered on earth. Even today when the Jews write God it is G-d. I do not buy this explanation but that is what happened. By the time the Hebrew scriptures are translated into Greek (the Septuagint) God’s proper name had been entirely removed from the scriptures. Which means they had to remove YHWH 6807 times and replace it with either word LORD or God or both. This constituted a massive modification to the Hebrew texts.
The process of the Septuagint
Of course the Septuagint was the translation from Hebrew to Greek. How many errors that were made in this translational process is a matter of debate, but it is well covered in college and there are books written on it. The Septuagint gives us a hint to Jewish beliefs that had formed while the Jews were under Persian rule. The Jews of the Hebrew texts did not believe in Hell or a devil, but the Jews in the New Testament knew what Christ was talking about when He referenced a fiery eternal punishment and Satan as the Devil and also as a serpent or dragon. So those beliefs were reflected in the translation of the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek.
What caused these Jewish beliefs….some say that it was because of Zoroastrianism, which the Jews were exposed to in Persia, which included beliefs of a place of fiery punishment and a Devil as well as angels and resurrections. And so words that could be translated to serpent or dragon were translated that way in the Septuagint. Since the Jews of the Hebrew Bible did not believe in a devil there was no scriptural connection between the serpent in Eden and Satan. In fact the word Satan as an individual does not appear very often in the Hebrew texts….mostly in Job.
So in the Septuagint the word Satan appears 15 times and the word devil appears 4 times. But by the time of the New Testament this belief is fully in play. Satan and Hell and Satan as a serpent or dragon was believed by most Jews, including the Apostles. So this is not due to a Christian influence it was already a belief in the Gospel era. But either way after the biblical era the Jews rejected the beliefs concerning Hell and the Devil.
The Hebrew texts become the Christian Old Testament
The Hebrew texts remain the same through the New Testament period and any time the New Testament mentions scriptures they are referring to the Hebrew texts. There seems to be little changes made to the Hebrew texts until the Middle Ages. Then after the Hebrew texts are translated to English the J slam hits and massive changes occur in the Old and New Testaments. The names of any person, place, or thing that started with a Y are changed to a J. You can look this up yourself and you will find that Job is actually Yob and etc etc Jacob is actually Yacob…etc. If you ever travel to Jerusalem ask them to pronounce the name of their city in Hebrew. At this point the transformation of the Hebrew texts to the Christian Old Testament is complete. But there are still questions.
The Apostles used the Greek word Iēsous Ἰησοῦς as the name for Christ. This is a Greek word…not a name….it means healer or noble. Greeks are not named this because it is a word. Christ’s name is known to be a common name in the Hebrew texts…. It is Yeshua or then Jeshua or Joshua in the Christianized Old Testament. There is nothing that is translated to the name Jesus or can be translated to Jesus. No one knows where the name Jesus came from. The Tyndale and Geneva Bibles used the word Iēsous and the first print of the KJV used the word Iēsous. The big picture, the names of God the Father and God the Son are not in our Bibles. Who would want that? There is an effort to put their names back in the scriptures …These Bibles are called Sacred Name Bibles.
They cannot see it or read it anymore because it is not there anymore.Jewish people do read the name of God as it is written when they read full verses in the bible.
Oh? All the names are there in the aramaic and hebrew version of the bible.They cannot see it or read it anymore because it is not there anymore.
So you have Bible with YHWH in it?Oh? All the names are there in the aramaic and hebrew version of the bible.
Sure, any standard hebrew bible has it.So you have Bible with YHWH in it?
This was generally removed before the Septuagint.
Send one to me. LOL
HELL (γέεννα, geenna). The Greek word is often translated in English versions of the New Testament as “hell.” It is a noun derived from the Hebrew phrase גיא הנום (gy' hnwm), which means “Valley of Hinnom.” The Valley of Hinnom was a ravine along the southern slope of Jerusalem (Josh 15:18; 18:16). In Old Testament times, it was a place used for offering sacrifices to foreign gods. Eventually, the site was used to burn refuse. When the Jews discussed punishment in the afterlife, they employed the image of this smoldering waste dump.Gehenna is an actual place in or by Jerusalem, right? So why was the proper name abandoned and replaced with "Hell"? Or am I misunderstanding - again? View attachment 32094
7And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.Sure, any standard hebrew bible has it.
וַיִּיצֶר יְהוָה אֱלֹהִים אֶת הָאָדָם עָפָר מִן הָאֲדָמָה וַיִּפַּח בְּאַפָּיו נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים וַיְהִי הָאָדָם לְנֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה."
Secon word from the right.
Wrong translation, it is "and created yehova (yhawe) elohim the man, dirt from the land.... Literal translation...7And the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and He breathed into his nostrils the soul of life, and man became a living soul.
זוַיִּ֩יצֶר֩ יְהֹוָ֨ה אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֗ם עָפָר֙ מִן־הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה וַיִּפַּ֥ח בְּאַפָּ֖יו נִשְׁמַ֣ת חַיִּ֑ים וַיְהִ֥י הָֽאָדָ֖ם לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ חַיָּֽה:
You want to split hairs over the translation?Wrong translation, it is "and created yehova (yhawe) elohim the man, dirt from the land.... Literal translation...
I was born literally in israel...You want to split hairs over the translation?
And Hashem Elohim formed the adam of the aphar min haadamah, and breathed into his nostrils the nishmat chayyim; and the adam became a nefesh chayyah.
וַיִּיצֶר֩ vai·yi·Tzer formed יְהוָ֨ה Yah·weh And the LORD אֱלֹהִ֜ים E·lo·Him God אֶת־ 'et- הָֽאָדָ֗ם ha·'a·Dam, man עָפָר֙ 'a·Far [of] the dust מִן־ min- of הָ֣אֲדָמָ֔ה ha·'a·da·Mah, the ground וַיִּפַּ֥ח vai·yip·Pach and breathed בְּאַפָּ֖יו be·'ap·Pav into his nostrils נִשְׁמַ֣ת nish·Mat the breath חַיִּ֑ים chai·Yim; of life וַֽיְהִ֥י vay·Hi became הָֽאָדָ֖ם ha·'a·Dam and man לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ le·Ne·fesh soul חַיָּֽה׃ chai·Yah. became a living
From a glance I know you are not familiar with Hebrew, not being facetious.
Johann.
Not judging you in a derogative manner-The Vav and the YodI was born literally in israel...
The first word is veyatzar... וייצר..
The letter ו is translated usually as and, but unlike english it is connected to the word hence veyatzar... וייצר.
ייצר can mean to creat,or form..
Anyways.. Do not be so fast to judge...
I've been studying bible in hebrew all my life... My weak point in NT, english and greek....
God bless...
Thank you, my brother is also named יוחנן.Not judging you in a derogative manner-The Vav and the Yod
You would agree the Vav-shortened-is a Yod.
Anyways-more than willing giving you a helping hand, should you wish.
Koine Greek is not difficult, and it will help you expand your English vocabulary @DoctrineOfGabriel
Shalom Achi
Yochanan/Johann
Thank you, my brother is also named יוחנן.
Jewish sources are conflicted about what happens after we die.Gehenna is an actual place in or by Jerusalem, right? So why was the proper name abandoned and replaced with "Hell"? Or am I misunderstanding - again? View attachment 32094
Hey anyway welcome.....stick aroundThank you, my brother is also named יוחנן.