Why was there a reformation?

[Marymog]

WHich is contrary to the teaching of the Bible, which is that WORKS are the RESULT of Salvation (being Born again of the Holy SPirit). Typical Catholic "Cart before the horse" thinking.

Well Bob....According to YOU it "is contrary to the teaching of the Bible".

So that makes we wonder. Did YOU decide it was contrary to the teaching of the Bible OR did another man teach you that it is contrary to the teaching of the Bible?

Curious Mary

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Ok.....soooo according to your theory Luther was guided by the Holy Spirit to once and for all debunk the Catholic Church teaching that faith without works is dead. After the Spirit guided Luther into that 'truth' the Spirit stop guiding Luther since he still held onto Unimportant "Religious" stuff like Sacraments, Blessed Virgins, Purgatorial fantasies, pagentry, bells, smells, canned prayers to Saints, and a host of other procedural foolishness”!

That is a fascinating theory....

Actually the teaching of the time was "It is FAITH ALONE that Saves, but the FAITH that saves will never be ALONE". (Melancthon's dictum)

That puts the cart at the proper end of the horse.

 

[Marymog]

I lived it. I taught Bible in Catholic home meetings at the invitation of the parish priests.

Sooooo help me understand better. You say you lived it! Does that mean that you taught yourself via living it this theory that the Spirit has been refreshing Christianity many times over the last 500 years?

I guess it would help me to understand what you mean by "refreshing"?

 

[Wrangler]

Hold on....HOLD ON Bob....

Protestantism has MULTIPLE different interpretations of the same passage from Scripture. Sooooooo which one of those Protestant denominations are NOT biblically ignorant? Which Protestant denomination doesn't have mis-management, political motivations and corruption? The denomination YOU belong to?

THANK GOD FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM! Of course, everyone believes their take on the subject is correct. That is a given. The corruption of Protestants is not that they have different doctrines. The corruption of the RCC is to impose their doctrine on others by force, coercion, intimidation, etc.

The Hubris of the 11th century founded institution to usurp the role of Christ on Earth is shocking to those who did not grow up under Catholic oppression. I did and had the strength of character to see the Spirit was dead in the church and look elsewhere. The building I attended was absolutely beautiful but the Spirit was dead.

The importance of doctrinal differences pale in comparison to the claim of supremacy by the 11th century founded institution - who claim their origins go back to Peter.

 

[Marymog]

Actually the teaching of the time was "It is FAITH ALONE that Saves, but the FAITH that saves will never be ALONE". (Melancthon's dictum)

That puts the cart at the proper end of the horse.

Ummmmm.....you didn't address my statement. I am asking you if the Holy Spirit stopped guiding Luther into the truth AFTER the Spirit revealed to him that The Church was falsely teaching the entire faith/works thing...... but I digress.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Absolutly false Bob.....The main point in James is that our works “complete” our faith and keep it alive. And inasmuch as our works are necessary for a living faith, they are necessary for keeping us in a saving relationship with God. This is why James can write, “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.” A Catholic, therefore, is justified in his appeal to James 2:24 in support of his belief that works are necessary for salvation!

"Works" can be regarded as an INDICATION that a Person has BEEN Born again of the Holy SPirit, and indwelled by Him, however "Works" don't contribute to a person's salvation - which depends ONLY on the gifted FAITH the person has in the SIN OFFERING of CHrist on the cross to cleanse them from all SIN. READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

 

[Marymog]

THANK GOD FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM! Of course, everyone believes their take on the subject is correct. That is a given. The corruption of Protestants is not that they have different doctrines. The corruption of the RCC is to impose their doctrine on others by force, coercion, intimidation, etc.

The Hubris of the 11th century founded institution to usurp the role of Christ on Earth is shocking to those who did not grow up under Catholic oppression. I did and had the strength of character to see the Spirit was dead in the church and look elsewhere. The building I attended was absolutely beautiful but the Spirit was dead.

The importance of doctrinal differences pale in comparison to the claim of supremacy by the 11th century founded institution - who claim their origins go back to Peter.

Show me in Scripture where it says that you have religious freedom and I will become a Protestant again....

Based on the context of my post I presume you mean religious freedom = I can read the bible in my basement and be just as right in my interpretation as any other man.

If my presumption is wrong please let me know....

 

[Marymog]

"Works" can be regarded as an INDICATION that a Person has BEEN Born again of the Holy SPirit, and indwelled by Him, however "Works" don't contribute to a person's salvation - which depends ONLY on the gifted FAITH the person has in the SIN OFFERING of CHrist on the cross to cleanse them from all SIN. READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

So if a person is doing good works that indicates they have been born again? The works indicate that they have faith in Christ?

 

[Wrangler]

Show me in Scripture where it says that you have religious freedom and I will become a Protestant again....

Mark 9:38-41
Luke 9:49-50

Based on the context of my post I presume you mean religious freedom = I can read the bible in my basement and be just as right in my interpretation as any other man.

If my presumption is wrong please let me know....

Sad appeal to "private interpretation." The Holy Spirit speaks to us all separately, individually. The Word of God is Alive. Hebrews 4:12. I have experienced this many times. St Augustine wrote about this in his Confessions. It is why there is so many callings, so many different missionary works. The Spirit of God guides us differently - from the same text. By what means will you not reach to save some?

To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
1 Corinthians 9:22

 

[theefaith]

Bob please explain 1cor 13:2
“All faith” without charity avails nothing?

justification by “faith alone” is a condemned heresy by the authority of the apostles, do also reject the authority of the apostles?

what is the source of truth for Christians?

what is the rule of faith for Christians?

what is the pillar and ground of truth?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So if a person is doing good works that indicates they have been born again? The works indicate that they have faith in Christ?

Not necessarily. They may be philanthropic Athiests. Being born again occurs ONLY by FAITH - which Biblically has to be GIFTED BY GOD (Eph 2:8,9).

Good works are also subjective in nature and "proof" of nothing.

I said "CAN BE", but what's more telling is that when a person "CLAIMS" to be a Christian, and there's no sign of "Good works" (James 2:16), or a Christian attitude, then their "religious proclamations" are in question. However, MAN only sees the outer appearence, but GOD looks on the heart.

 

[TEXBOW]

So if a person is doing good works that indicates they have been born again? The works indicate that they have faith in Christ?

We do not know. We are not to judge a person's salvation, that's God's responsibility. A brother or sister's behavior we are to rebuke. I think the disconnect is the foundation a person stands on. If you stand upon a corporate theology vs. a personal relationship with Christ via the Holy Spirit it's like talking two different languages. It makes it hard to understand each other. I'm only a protestant because society tells me I am. This is the key, a born-again Christian is indwelled with the Holy Spirit. The helper Christ sent us. How does it help us? Many things, discernment for one thing. The experience differences of a born-again Christian vs a person who is not has a very different experience in reading the Bible. Salvation is about a relationship with Jesus Christ. When anyone tries to drag man or church statements of beliefs into that relationship it is of no value and immaterial Once a person understands the role of the Holy Spirit clearly explained in the scriptures all other noise about denominations, reformation, etc is nothing more than the history of fallible man. We must remember that the flesh and the Spirit are in conflict, a tug-a-war for our soul.

 

[Marymog]

Mark 9:38-41
Luke 9:49-50

Well wrangler....Neither of those passages say anything about religious freedom. Casting out demons in the name of Jesus is not the same as religious freedom to practice/believe what YOU think Scripture says/means. You have chosen to ignore the passages that speak about following your elders that are appointed by the Holy Spirit and how they make decisions for what The Church is to teach/practice etc etc. You have cherry picked passages to fit YOUR belief...

 

[Bob Carabbio]

what is the source of truth for Christians?

The Holy SPirit, John 16:13 / James 1:5

Next question??

 

[Marymog]

Sad appeal to "private interpretation." The Holy Spirit speaks to us all separately, individually. The Word of God is Alive. Hebrews 4:12. I have experienced this many times. St Augustine wrote about this in his Confessions. It is why there is so many callings, so many different missionary works. The Spirit of God guides us differently - from the same text. By what means will you not reach to save some?

To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.
1 Corinthians 9:22

I never suggested the Holy Spirit doesn't speak to all of us separately. We are talking about the right of each individual to properly interpret the bible into the truth. How do we come to a teaching that will bring us together as one with one teaching and one voice? You know...Just like Scripture says!!! Your theory is opposite of that. Your theory is opposite of what Scripture teaches.

 

[Marymog]

Not necessarily. They may be philanthropic Athiests. Being born again occurs ONLY by FAITH - which Biblically has to be GIFTED BY GOD (Eph 2:8,9).

Good works are also subjective in nature and "proof" of nothing.

I said "CAN BE", but what's more telling is that when a person "CLAIMS" to be a Christian, and there's no sign of "Good works" (James 2:16), or a Christian attitude, then their "religious proclamations" are in question. However, MAN only sees the outer appearence, but GOD looks on the heart.

Well, we agree. Doing good works does not indicate that one is a Christian or have faith in God. And we agree that one does not become a Christian (born again) unless they have faith. But what does Scripture say about faith and works Bob? It says faith without works is dead. So if you don't have works that means that you don't have TRUE faith.....which is what I have been saying all along which is also what Scripture says.

 

[TEXBOW]

I never suggested the Holy Spirit doesn't speak to all of us separately. We are talking about the right of each individual to properly interpret the bible into the truth. How do we come to a teaching that will bring us together as one with one teaching and one voice? You know...Just like Scripture says!!! Your theory is opposite of that. Your theory is opposite of what Scripture teaches.

Our destination is not on this earth. Our coming together is in the body of Christ. Those who walk in the Spirit have much in common.

 

[TEXBOW]

Well, we agree. Doing good works does not indicate that one is a Christian or have faith in God. And we agree that one does not become a Christian (born again) unless they have faith. But what does Scripture say about faith and works Bob? It says faith without works is dead. So if you don't have works that means that you don't have TRUE faith.....which is what I have been saying all along which is also what Scripture says.

I think IMHO the debate is the order of faith and works. Works are evidence of our faith.

 

[theefaith]

The Holy SPirit, John 16:13 / James 1:5

Next question??

no the Holy Spirit leads the apostles into all truth and they must teach us! Matt 28:19-20 Lk 1:4 acts 8:31

 

[theefaith]

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well, apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!
Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments

The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Only the church has authority from Christ to define the truth and teach!
Matt 16:18 matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Jn 20:21-23 Jn 8:32 Jn 16:13

The teaching of Peter and the apostles and successors is the teaching of Christ!