Why water into wine?

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BreadOfLife

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You are so sanctimonious it ain't funny!
You know I really don't care which way you number the commandments. That is not the issue. The issue is that the C church totally ignores the 4th verse and so do you. And once you do that you lose total credibility. So whatever else you try to establish means squat. (Excuse me if that's spiritual pride on my part

Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
And don't try to cover that up with your "Cherubim on the mercy seat" example. Moses was specifically told to make those things exactly as they were represented in the heavenly temple. The commandments and that portion of scripture are totally unrelated, so get it right.
Moses was told by God to specifically make a fiery serpent which again was an entirely different UNRELATED reason. The bronze serpent signifies judgment and yet healing and victory over death which is a foreshadowing of Christ's work at the cross. (John 3:14-15) "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

Your argument makes absolutely NO sense.

“God FORBIDS” the creation of ANY image – ummmm, except for when HE wants us to make one.”
God is NOT a hypocrite – whether YOU think He is or not.

The fact is that you are a Scriptural literalist who cannot see the Scriptures for what they are saying.

Is God a bird??
Psalm 91:4 says He has wings and feathers.

Does God have a nose??
Exodus 15:8
says that He has “nostrils”.

John 4:24 says that God is SPIRIT. No wings or feathers or nostrils, etc.
Either Scripture is lying – or YOU cannot grasp the concept of Anthropomorphism. You also don’t understand the difference between MAKING graven images and WORSHIPING them . . .

While we’re on the subject – WHY are you using an avatar to identify yourself.
Did God give you special permission to make that forbidden image??

Can YOU say, “Hypocrite”??
Better that I introduce them to Jesus and His love for them than you trying to convince them of your religious cult.
Enough said, you are a false prophet spewing your religion on people like the Pharisees of old, a reprobate at best. I dust of my feet.
All you’re introducing anybody to is confusion . . .
 

perrero

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Your argument makes absolutely NO sense.

“God FORBIDS” the creation of ANY image – ummmm, except for when HE wants us to make one.”
God is NOT a hypocrite – whether YOU think He is or not.

The fact is that you are a Scriptural literalist who cannot see the Scriptures for what they are saying.

Is God a bird??
Psalm 91:4
says He has wings and feathers.

Does God have a nose??
Exodus 15:8
says that He has “nostrils”.

John 4:24 says that God is SPIRIT. No wings or feathers or nostrils, etc.
Either Scripture is lying – or YOU cannot grasp the concept of Anthropomorphism. You also don’t understand the difference between MAKING graven images and WORSHIPING them . . .

While we’re on the subject – WHY are you using an avatar to identify yourself.
Did God give you special permission to make that forbidden image??

Can YOU say, “Hypocrite”??

All you’re introducing anybody to is confusion . . .
I give up, You're hopeless.
Once again you use your scapegoat "BIG WORD". WOW I'm impressed especially since it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

You also don’t understand the difference between MAKING graven images and WORSHIPING them . . .
Let me see if I can figure out the difference. The C church MAKES them (Pictures, Icons, Statues, sculptures basically idols) and puts them everywhere in the church and then tells the people that they can pray to these dead people, Mary, Saints, etc. and they will receive blessings and answers. So the people with their prayer beads and their money and their candles kneel down, bow down, bring gifts, flowers, food serving them and expecting something in return. Hopefully they don't expect salvation because many will be lost. They will be lost because the C church has preached to them alternate ways of salvation and have not taught the verses Exodus 20:5 "Thou shalt NOT bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God" and 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". Now why is that? Because for that last 1970 years or so they were told not to read the bible, they wouldn't understand it. Which I'm not surprised, the way you exegete it. Keep the people in the dark, it makes it easier for the jackboot to control the minions and siphon there money. Here's a question for you, in my days, 45 yrs ago, it cost 10 cents to light a candle, has inflation brought that up to a dollar today?
I'll tell you a secret. I never did pay the 10 cents. But when I went to confession and told the priest, it was easy peasy, a few Hail Marys and a couple of Our Fathers and poof my sins were forgiven. It seemed magical.
Oh, and that commandment that you choose to ignore doesn't say anything about worshiping.
But I know you don't care about things like that, you wouldn't want to become a literalist.
 
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BreadOfLife

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I give up, You're hopeless.
Once again you use your scapegoat "BIG WORD". WOW I'm impressed especially since it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.


Let me see if I can figure out the difference. The C church MAKES them (Pictures, Icons, Statues, sculptures basically idols) and puts them everywhere in the church and then tells the people that they can pray to these dead people, Mary, Saints, etc. and they will receive blessings and answers. So the people with their prayer beads and their money and their candles kneel down, bow down, bring gifts, flowers, food serving them and expecting something in return. Hopefully they don't expect salvation because many will be lost. They will be lost because the C church has preached to them alternate ways of salvation and have not taught the verses Exodus 20:5 "Thou shalt NOT bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God" and 1 Timothy 2:5 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus". Now why is that? Because for that last 1970 years or so they were told not to read the bible, they wouldn't understand it. Which I'm not surprised, the way you exegete it. Keep the people in the dark, it makes it easier for the jackboot to control the minions and siphon there money. Here's a question for you, in my days, 45 yrs ago, it cost 10 cents to light a candle, has inflation brought that up to a dollar today?
I'll tell you a secret. I never did pay the 10 cents. But when I went to confession and told the priest, it was easy peasy, a few Hail Marys and a couple of Our Fathers and poof my sins were forgiven. It seemed magical.
Oh, and that commandment that you choose to ignore doesn't say anything about worshiping.
But I know you don't care about things like that, you wouldn't want to become a literalist.
You are a textbook example of the complete ignorance of the Catholic faith and Scriptural bankruptcy that lured so many out of the Church. You CLAIM to know why you left - but your rant illustrates the pathetic truth:
You wandered away because you didn't have a clue as to what the Church taught.

First of all - you continue with your nonsense about worshiping and serving statues - which is an asinine claim.

Secondly - I don't know what bizarre excuse for a Bible you're reading - but MY Bible says that those in Heaven in the presence of Almighty God are MORE alive than YOU or me. Why would you refer to them as "Dead People"??

Moses
died on this earth but he spoke to Jesus at the Transfiguration in dazzling light.
Was Moses a "Dead Person"??

Thirdly - your charge that Catholics were told NOT to read the Bible is born of an abject ignorance of history and is basically just another phony LIE. Can you substantiate this claim with actual documented evidence? Were you aware that prior to the 20th century - as many as 80% of the world's population was functionally illiterate and wouldn't have been able to read a Bible if it fell on their lap??

Do your homework, man. Don't be content with being so ignorant about Scripture and history.
LEARN about Christ's Church instead of pushing it away. When you reject His Church - you reject HIM (Luke 10:16).

PS - you SILL haven't answered my questions about God having a nose or being a bird - but I'm not holding my breath . . .
 

perrero

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You are a textbook example of the complete ignorance of the Catholic faith and Scriptural bankruptcy that lured so many out of the Church. You CLAIM to know why you left - but your rant illustrates the pathetic truth:
You wandered away because you didn't have a clue as to what the Church taught.

First of all - you continue with your nonsense about worshiping and serving statues - which is an asinine claim.

Secondly - I don't know what bizarre excuse for a Bible you're reading - but MY Bible says that those in Heaven in the presence of Almighty God are MORE alive than YOU or me. Why would you refer to them as "Dead People"??

Moses
died on this earth but he spoke to Jesus at the Transfiguration in dazzling light.
Was Moses a "Dead Person"??

Thirdly - your charge that Catholics were told NOT to read the Bible is born of an abject ignorance of history and is basically just another phony LIE. Can you substantiate this claim with actual documented evidence? Were you aware that prior to the 20th century - as many as 80% of the world's population was functionally illiterate and wouldn't have been able to read a Bible if it fell on their lap??

Do your homework, man. Don't be content with being so ignorant about Scripture and history.
LEARN about Christ's Church instead of pushing it away. When you reject His Church - you reject HIM (Luke 10:16).

PS - you SILL haven't answered my questions about God having a nose or being a bird - but I'm not holding my breath . . .
You know I finally figured it out. You're exactly like the Pharisees who couldn't see beyond their nose. They thought they were the only way, till Jesus showed them otherwise and they still could not see it. Well many others have.
I was so like you, arrogant, sanctimonious, thinking I had the truth and nobody else did, but that's OK I know where you're coming from, you'll even deny what I'm saying now. That's because you really don't know me. But I saw the Light, met the Way, the Truth and the Life, and when you do, everything changes.
Final question - Do you think that someone can legitimately be saved and go to heaven without being Catholic?
Answer or not, I'm seriously done.
 

BreadOfLife

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You know I finally figured it out. You're exactly like the Pharisees who couldn't see beyond their nose. They thought they were the only way, till Jesus showed them otherwise and they still could not see it. Well many others have.
I was so like you, arrogant, sanctimonious, thinking I had the truth and nobody else did, but that's OK I know where you're coming from, you'll even deny what I'm saying now. That's because you really don't know me. But I saw the Light, met the Way, the Truth and the Life, and when you do, everything changes.
Final question - Do you think that someone can legitimately be saved and go to heaven without being Catholic?
Answer or not, I'm seriously done.
Good - does that mean you won't be spewing any more anti-Catholic nonsense?
In case you do - just know that this garbage won't go unanswered - not on MY watch.

As for WHO gets into Heaven - that's up to GOD - not you and not me.

As for the Way the Truth and the Life - I've not only met Him, I receive His precious Body and Blood every chance I get - as He commanded

John 6:53-56
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
 

bbyrd009

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I receive His precious Body and Blood every chance I get - as He commanded
actually we are commanded to communion "as oft as ye gather," which was 3 times a year at festival, and specifically commanded not to make it a profane or every-time thing, but that might be different in a Catholic Bible too, i'm not sure.
 

BreadOfLife

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actually we are commanded to communion "as oft as ye gather," which was 3 times a year at festival, and specifically commanded not to make it a profane or every-time thing, but that might be different in a Catholic Bible too, i'm not sure.
WRONG.
According to the New Testament - "as often as ye gather" was DAILY (Acts 2:46) - not just 3 times a year.
Mass, which is the celebration of the Eucharist, takes place around the world on a DAILY Basis.

I really don't know where you get your strange doctrines - nut they're not fro the Bible . . .
 
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bbyrd009

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maybe the Catholic Bible, i guess, but i am finding enough affirmation in the fact that you disagree, frankly. If you disagree with it, it is probably Scriptural. I only offered a well documented theological argument, i actually have no position on pagan rituals. Communion means something completely different to me

26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
 
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BreadOfLife

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maybe the Catholic Bible, i guess, but i am finding enough affirmation in the fact that you disagree, frankly. If you disagree with it, it is probably Scriptural. I only offered a well documented theological argument, i actually have no position on pagan rituals. Communion means something completely different to me

26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
Scripturally - it only means ONE thing:

John 6:53-56
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
 

perrero

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maybe the Catholic Bible, i guess, but i am finding enough affirmation in the fact that you disagree, frankly. If you disagree with it, it is probably Scriptural. I only offered a well documented theological argument, i actually have no position on pagan rituals. Communion means something completely different to me

26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’
It's the Cannibal Cult!
 
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BreadOfLife

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It's the Cannibal Cult!
THANK YOU for saying that because that is precisely what the Romans said about the Early Christians when they dragged them before wild animals to be torn apart. They accused them of "cannibalism" for their belief that they were eating and drinking Christ.

You can read all about it in such ancient works as The Octavius of Marcus Minucius Felix.
So, again - THANK YOU for acknowledging that we are the Church of the 1st century . . .
 
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Marymog

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It's the Cannibal Cult!
There are many of us Protestants who are part of the "cannibal cult" also. For 2,000 years the teaching of the real presence has been practiced. The teaching of communion not being the real presence is a recent TRADITION and a teaching NOT based on scripture.

My two cents worth
 

Marymog

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THANK YOU for saying that because that is precisely what the Romans said about the Early Christians when they dragged them before wild animals to be torn apart. They accused them of "cannibalism" for their belief that they were eating and drinking Christ.

You can read all about it in such ancient works as The Octavius of Marcus Minucius Felix.
So, again - THANK YOU for acknowledging that we are the Church of the 1st century . . .
Very good point BOL.

Might I add that those disciples who couldn't handle what Jesus was saying walked away from Him (John 6:66). The only time recorded in scripture that disciples walked away from Jesus. I wonder what happened to those disciples that didn't believe what Jesus said and turned their backs on Him?

Those that don't accept the Real Presence and call those of us that do accept it "cannibals" must realize that when they partake in communion they have to at least PRETEND they are being a cannibal since Jesus said you MUST eat my body. They are PRETENDING to follow Jesus commmand. We "cannibals" really do follow His command.

My two cents worth....Mary
 

Marymog

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with all due respect, as long as you are talking about "in a ritual setting," you are spinning your wheels imo.
bbyrd,

Thank you for your OPINION. Scripture and and Christian History on this matter is not based on opinion. Scripture and Christian History are Truth and fact. Which is something you lack on this subject.

Mary
 

bbyrd009

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bbyrd,

Thank you for your OPINION. Scripture and and Christian History on this matter is not based on opinion. Scripture and Christian History are Truth and fact. Which is something you lack on this subject.

Mary
i certainly see how we all come to this conclusion, even BreadofDeath, simply because it is what we are raised believing. But fwiw i could easily direct you to passages that are just being plain ignored, that would refute any belief you might have--Paul assured us that "wolves" would take over the churches as soon as he left, etc., so what about that, for instance?

So these might be considered, and we have not even broached that God is surely not interested in our religious rituals, but instead cares about the practical aspects of a spiritual walk, loving your neighbor, etc--"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

Of course with someone raised with the assurance that seeking God can only be accomplished in a mortgaged building we now call "church," by a guy in a tie who has signed a Contract for Jesus, it is only natural to also assume that literal water must have been literally turned into wine, and so a different lesson will be taught, just like @ "communion," as long as it is perceived to be a dead religious ritual. So then all kinds of retarded doctrines that mean absolutely nothing--Transubstantiation, etc--must be developed, because the real communion is not even understood.

The Bible works fabulously to reveal hearts in other ways too, for instance if one insists upon a literal interpretation (reading history), a fair chunk of Scripture can now be immediately ignored by any new believer, who for instance is never encouraged to put themselves in the place of Cain or Esau, even though these parables are meant for spiritual instruction of the new seeker. But of course as long as the ego is allowed to dominate--and after all why shouldn't it, if one has just been assured that "I am going to heaven when i die"--we are encouraged to put ourselves in the place of Job, and everyone else in the place of the three friends; or put ourselves in the place of Jesus or Moses, etc.

And i suggest that the authors were not stupid, and even encourage this, so that the blind do not see, and reveal themselves, me surely being one of them.
 
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BreadOfLife

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i certainly see how we all come to this conclusion, even BreadofDeath, simply because it is what we are raised believing. But fwiw i could easily direct you to passages that are just being plain ignored, that would refute any belief you might have--Paul assured us that "wolves" would take over the churches as soon as he left, etc., so what about that, for instance?

So these might be considered, and we have not even broached that God is surely not interested in our religious rituals, but instead cares about the practical aspects of a spiritual walk, loving your neighbor, etc--"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

Of course with someone raised with the assurance that seeking God can only be accomplished in a mortgaged building we now call "church," by a guy in a tie who has signed a Contract for Jesus, it is only natural to also assume that literal water must have been literally turned into wine, and so a different lesson will be taught, just like @ "communion," as long as it is perceived to be a dead religious ritual. So then all kinds of retarded doctrines that mean absolutely nothing--Transubstantiation, etc--must be developed, because the real communion is not even understood.

The Bible works fabulously to reveal hearts in other ways too, for instance if one insists upon a literal interpretation (reading history), a fair chunk of Scripture can now be immediately ignored by any new believer, who for instance is never encouraged to put themselves in the place of Cain or Esau, even though these parables are meant for spiritual instruction of the new seeker. But of course as long as the ego is allowed to dominate--and after all why shouldn't it, if one has just been assured that "I am going to heaven when i die"--we are encouraged to put ourselves in the place of Job, and everyone else in the place of the three friends; or put ourselves in the place of Jesus or Moses, etc.

And i suggest that the authors were not stupid, and even encourage this, so that the blind do not see, and reveal themselves, me surely being one of them.
And all this means is that YOU'VE established your own "church".
Ahhhh - the perpetually splintering mess that is Protestantism . . .