Why water into wine?

[Stranger]

BoL

I respect everyone's opinion that does not go against the Word of God.
I know that the C C teaches the word of God.

And this is a very important point. What is the Word of God? Do you adhere to the Romanist Bible, which includes apocryphal books. Or do you adhere to the Protestant Bible which excludes the apocrypha? Do you see 'tradition' on the same level as the inspired Word of God?

Understand that I say 'Romanist' because I believe that I as a Christian am part of the Catholic or universal Church as one who is born again. But, the term Roman Catholic is an oxymoron. Roman is not universal. It is the Roman Church, the Church at Rome.

I am not anti-catholic. But I am anti-romanist. I am against those who want to impose their beliefs on the whole of Christianity and set themselves up as the leaders over all the Catholic Church of Christ.

Stranger

 

[BreadOfLife]

I know about Tradition.
I know where ideas come from, that doesn't mean they're right.
Talking to the dead: Jesus never said to speak to dead persons, nor Paul or anyone else for that matter. I cannot remember any of the ECF that espoused this idea.

Ummmm, what do you call the Transfiguration??
Jesus was talking to TWO "dead" guys. Besides - who says that those in Heaven who are in the presence of Almighty God are "dead"??

As for the ECFs - they unanimously taught in the intercession of the Saints:
Origen
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius
Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition... (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Anonymous
Mother of God, listen to my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraem of Syria
Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day (De Timore, Anim. in fin. [A.D. 370]).

Liturgy of St. Basil
By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Gregory Nazianzen
Yes, I am well assured that [my father's] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . (Orations 18:4 [A.D. 374]).

May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand (Orations 17 [24] [A.D. 376]),

Gregory of Nyssa
Do you, [Ephraem] that art standing at the divine altar . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom (Sermon on Ephraem the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

Ambrose of Milan
May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benign countenance (Hexameron 5:25:90 [A.D. 388]).

John Chrysostom
He that wears the purple . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tent-maker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on 2 Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

Augustine
A Christian people celebrate together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

Jerome
You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

The C C also believes that one must be saved BEFORE dying -- so why say prayers for the dead? And how do we know they can hear us? Are they omnipresent as God is?
I do believe in the Communion of Saints as far as our being one large family.

A person who is ultimately "saved" may need to go through a final cleansing before entering Heaven.
Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING unclean or impure can enter Heaven. I don't know a lot of perfectly pure and clean souls - do you?

As for omniscience - a saint in Heaven who prays for us doesn't need to be all-knowing.
Don't forget - in Heaven - we're not the same people with the same limitations we had on earth.

Rev. 5:8 shows the elders in Heaven taking our prayers before God - and Rev. 8:5 shows the Angels in Heaven doing the SAME thing.


continued in the next post . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

continued . . .

We're taking Mary to an extreme position. She's already almost a co-redemptrix. She was AT THE FOOT OF THE CROSS, not on it. One false teaching leads to another.

She was born without sin, so now it becomes necessary for her not to die and have her body disintegrate. So we have the Immaculate Conception and The Assmption. I believe the first could be accepted, but not the second. There is NO WAY to know this.

Mary’s Immaculate Conception can be shown in Scripture.

The Greek word is kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” It is used as a TITLE.
The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, “Hail Kecharitomene.”

As for Mary’s Assumption – She is the ONLY person in the entire Book of Revelation that is shown to have an entire body – from her head to her feet.
No other create being in Heaven is described as having a body (Rev. 12:1).


As for her being “Co-Redemptrix” -= this doesn’t mean that she is another Redeemer. In Col. 1:24, Paul refers to himself as a kind of “co-redeemer”, in that, he joins his sufferings with those of Christ for the benefit of the Colossians.

Finally – the Church doesn’t teach whether Mary died or not.
Remember though – Jesus was without sin and HE died . . .

Original Sin. Babies are baptized to remove original sin. This means that God imputes Adam's sin into all of us. God does not impute Others sins to persons that did not commit them. This would not let God be a JUST God. We suffer from the EFFECT of orginal sin, but we are not imputed with original sin. I don't care to do the work, but there is scripture for this which I'm sure you know. And a lot of it is just the study of God, theology.

Rom. 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

1 Cor. 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

‘Nuff said . . .

That brings us to Justification. How could I be justified if I don't accept God on my own?

If you’re referring to Infant Baptism – then ask yourself: How could men enter into the Covenant with God by circumcision at the age of 8 days old??

Peter baptized Cornelius’s entire household.
Paul baptized the entire households of the Philippian Jailer and Stephanas.
Are you going to tell me that there were NO small children in those households?

The Early Church Fathers unanimously taught and practiced Infant Baptism, referring to it as a Tradition of the Apostles themselves.

Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

 

[BreadOfLife]

And this is a very important point. What is the Word of God? Do you adhere to the Romanist Bible, which includes apocryphal books. Or do you adhere to the Protestant Bible which excludes the apocrypha? Do you see 'tradition' on the same level as the inspired Word of God?

Understand that I say 'Romanist' because I believe that I as a Christian am part of the Catholic or universal Church as one who is born again. But, the term Roman Catholic is an oxymoron. Roman is not universal. It is the Roman Church, the Church at Rome.

I am not anti-catholic. But I am anti-romanist. I am against those who want to impose their beliefs on the whole of Christianity and set themselves up as the leaders over all the Catholic Church of Christ.

Stranger

Actually - the Catholic Canon doesn't include any aprocryphal works.
It includes 7 Deuterocanonical Books that were removed by Protestants.

These Books are alluded to and/or quoted over 150 times in the pages of the New Testament.

PS - You're a Protestant - not a Catholic.
BIG difference . . .

 

[Stranger]

Actually - the Catholic Canon doesn't include any aprocryphal works.
It includes 7 Deuterocanonical Books that were removed by Protestants.

These Books are alluded to and/or quoted over 150 times in the pages of the New Testament.

PS - You're a Protestant - not a Catholic.
BIG difference . . .

Really? Name the 7.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

And this is a very important point. What is the Word of God? Do you adhere to the Romanist Bible, which includes apocryphal books. Or do you adhere to the Protestant Bible which excludes the apocrypha? Do you see 'tradition' on the same level as the inspired Word of God?

Understand that I say 'Romanist' because I believe that I as a Christian am part of the Catholic or universal Church as one who is born again. But, the term Roman Catholic is an oxymoron. Roman is not universal. It is the Roman Church, the Church at Rome.

I am not anti-catholic. But I am anti-romanist. I am against those who want to impose their beliefs on the whole of Christianity and set themselves up as the leaders over all the Catholic Church of Christ.

Stranger

Hi Stranger
What is the Romanist Bible? Do you mean the Catholic bible?
I like to be intellectually honest.
The Catholic bible is the ORIGINAL bible before Luther removed the books that spoke about talking to dead people because, of course, he didn't believe one could. Better, he thought, to remove the books altogether and get them out of the way.

Now, I'm not sure why you're asking ME these questions since I'm Protestant.
But my answer is that the bible has more value than Tradition. I do believe in reading the Early Church theologians since they were closer to the time of Jesus and the Apostes, they undestood that culture better.

You're right there's no such Church as the Roman Catholic Church.
It's the Catholic Church.
Roman is a rite, a style of ritual and liturgy. Like also the Latin rite.

I don't understand your last paragraph. You are for the Catholic Church but against the Roman Church. What's the difference?

As far as imposing beliefs, wouldn't any Church love to impose their beliefs?
Each one thinks they're the right one with all the truth.

 

[Wrigley]

Hi Stranger
What is the Romanist Bible? Do you mean the Catholic bible?
I like to be intellectually honest.
The Catholic bible is the ORIGINAL bible before Luther removed the books that spoke about talking to dead people because, of course, he didn't believe one could. Better, he thought, to remove the books altogether and get them out of the way.

Now, I'm not sure why you're asking ME these questions since I'm Protestant.
But my answer is that the bible has more value than Tradition. I do believe in reading the Early Church theologians since they were closer to the time of Jesus and the Apostes, they undestood that culture better.

You're right there's no such Church as the Roman Catholic Church.
It's the Catholic Church.
Roman is a rite, a style of ritual and liturgy. Like also the Latin rite.

I don't understand your last paragraph. You are for the Catholic Church but against the Roman Church. What's the difference?

As far as imposing beliefs, wouldn't any Church love to impose their beliefs?
Each one thinks they're the right one with all the truth.

:):) Hi GodsGrace

 

[GodsGrace]

:):) Hi GodsGrace

You're looking rather blue.
Cheer up !!
YAY!!!!!!!
You're here!

 

[GodsGrace]

Ummmm, what do you call the Transfiguration??
Jesus was talking to TWO "dead" guys. Besides - who says that those in Heaven who are in the presence of Almighty God are "dead"??

As for the ECFs - they unanimously taught in the intercession of the Saints:
Origen
But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius
Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian
Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition... (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

Anonymous
Mother of God, listen to my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).

Ephraem of Syria
Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day (De Timore, Anim. in fin. [A.D. 370]).

Liturgy of St. Basil
By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).

Gregory Nazianzen
Yes, I am well assured that [my father's] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . (Orations 18:4 [A.D. 374]).

May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand (Orations 17 [24] [A.D. 376]),

Gregory of Nyssa
Do you, [Ephraem] that art standing at the divine altar . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom (Sermon on Ephraem the Syrian [A.D. 380]).

Ambrose of Milan
May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ's benign countenance (Hexameron 5:25:90 [A.D. 388]).

John Chrysostom
He that wears the purple . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tent-maker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on 2 Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

Augustine
A Christian people celebrate together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

Jerome
You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs? (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).



A person who is ultimately "saved" may need to go through a final cleansing before entering Heaven.
Rev. 21:27 tells us that NOTHING unclean or impure can enter Heaven. I don't know a lot of perfectly pure and clean souls - do you?

As for omniscience - a saint in Heaven who prays for us doesn't need to be all-knowing.
Don't forget - in Heaven - we're not the same people with the same limitations we had on earth.

Rev. 5:8 shows the elders in Heaven taking our prayers before God - and Rev. 8:5 shows the Angels in Heaven doing the SAME thing.


continued in the next post . . .

The Transfiguration:
God could do whatever He wants to do.
If He wants to show us two people in heaven, so be it.

Prayers for the dead:
Here's a prayer for the dead by Ignatius of Antioch. I'm sure you know that he was a student of John and a Bishop after Peter...

PRAYER FOR THE DEAD
Receive in tranquility and peace, O Lord, the souls of your servants who have departed this present life to come to you. Grant them rest and place them in the habitations of light, the abodes of blessed spirits. Give them the life that will not age, good things that will not pass away, delights that have no end, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

As you can see he's praying for God's SERVANTS. As time went on it became more and more a prayer TO the dead. Today we pray even for unsaved persons that they might be forgiven and taken to heaven. I'm sure you must realize how this has grown to be unbiblical in our present time.

Next...

 

[Wrigley]

You're looking rather blue.
Cheer up !!
YAY!!!!!!!
You're here!

Yeh gonna have to have a chat with my mark up artist if I can find him.
Not seen him yet. Have you?

His name is Rollo Tamasi.
Took my money and run.

 

[GodsGrace]

continued . . .



Mary’s Immaculate Conception can be shown in Scripture.

The Greek word is kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” It is used as a TITLE.
The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, “Hail Kecharitomene.”

As for Mary’s Assumption – She is the ONLY person in the entire Book of Revelation that is shown to have an entire body – from her head to her feet.
No other create being in Heaven is described as having a body (Rev. 12:1).


As for her being “Co-Redemptrix” -= this doesn’t mean that she is another Redeemer. In Col. 1:24, Paul refers to himself as a kind of “co-redeemer”, in that, he joins his sufferings with those of Christ for the benefit of the Colossians.

Finally – the Church doesn’t teach whether Mary died or not.
Remember though – Jesus was without sin and HE died . . .



Rom. 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

1 Cor. 15:21
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

‘Nuff said . . .

If you’re referring to Infant Baptism – then ask yourself: How could men enter into the Covenant with God by circumcision at the age of 8 days old??

Peter baptized Cornelius’s entire household.
Paul baptized the entire households of the Philippian Jailer and Stephanas.
Are you going to tell me that there were NO small children in those households?

The Early Church Fathers unanimously taught and practiced Infant Baptism, referring to it as a Tradition of the Apostles themselves.

Origen
The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

I meant "dead" to us. Of course we're never really dead.
Also, I believe I said omnipresent. If not, that's what I meant.

Baptising a Whole household. Could be there were children and could be there weren't. A doctrine should not be based on an "iffy" situation that is not certain.

I'm not certain what you're saying about Mary.
I agree that she's full of grace.
We were discussing the Immaculate Conception and Assumption.
I cannot agree with the assumption.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeh gonna have to have a chat with my mark up artist if I can find him.
Not seen him yet. Have you?

His name is Rollo Tamasi.
Took my money and run.

He's feeling down in the dumps but is around.
Let me go PM him. He'll be around eventually.

Your avatar is good. Leave it.
I'm Wondering in mine...

 

[Wrigley]

He's feeling down in the dumps but is around.
Let me go PM him. He'll be around eventually.

Your avatar is good. Leave it.
I'm Wondering in mine...

I'm Wondering in mine. Brilliant

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger
What is the Romanist Bible? Do you mean the Catholic bible?
I like to be intellectually honest.
The Catholic bible is the ORIGINAL bible before Luther removed the books that spoke about talking to dead people because, of course, he didn't believe one could. Better, he thought, to remove the books altogether and get them out of the way.

Now, I'm not sure why you're asking ME these questions since I'm Protestant.
But my answer is that the bible has more value than Tradition. I do believe in reading the Early Church theologians since they were closer to the time of Jesus and the Apostes, they undestood that culture better.

You're right there's no such Church as the Roman Catholic Church.
It's the Catholic Church.
Roman is a rite, a style of ritual and liturgy. Like also the Latin rite.

I don't understand your last paragraph. You are for the Catholic Church but against the Roman Church. What's the difference?

As far as imposing beliefs, wouldn't any Church love to impose their beliefs?
Each one thinks they're the right one with all the truth.

Howdy, God's Grace

Yes I mean the Bible of the Roman Church which includes the books we call apocrypha. It was not Luther who determined the Old Testament Canon. It was the Jews, and specifically the Jews of Palestine, where Jesus and the apostles existed and ministered. And it is only the Old Testament Canon that is in question concerning the apocryphal books.

If Luther could have decided which books belong to the Canon of Scripture, then the book of James would not have been there. The Old Testament apocryphal books were never accepted by the Palestinian Jews. The Bible of the Jews today is the same as the Protestant Bible of the Old Testament. So, Luther did not remove books from the Bible. Protestants recognized the Old Testament of the Palestinian Jews.

Nothing wrong with reading early Church theologians. But, remember, even the disciples didn't always understand what Jesus was 'plainly' saying to them. And they were in his presence constantly.

I am for the Catholic Church which I believe to be the universal Church of Jesus Christ. Which I believe every born-again believer is part of. I am against any local church, such as the Roman church, that wants to control the universal or Catholic Church of Jesus Christ. And that is what you have with "Roman Catholicism".

Of course we all as believers act and react to what we believe the Scriptures to be saying. And we should give room for differences of opinions in certain areas. But in some we cannot. We just need to know what those are. I don't mind another group of believers having a difference of opinion and expressing that opinion. I do mind if they believe and try and force that opinion on the whole Church of Christ. Which is what the Roman Church does and wants to do.

Stranger

 

[GodsGrace]

Howdy, God's Grace

Yes I mean the Bible of the Roman Church which includes the books we call apocrypha. It was not Luther who determined the Old Testament Canon. It was the Jews, and specifically the Jews of Palestine, where Jesus and the apostles existed and ministered. And it is only the Old Testament Canon that is in question concerning the apocryphal books.

If Luther could have decided which books belong to the Canon of Scripture, then the book of James would not have been there. The Old Testament apocryphal books were never accepted by the Palestinian Jews. The Bible of the Jews today is the same as the Protestant Bible of the Old Testament. So, Luther did not remove books from the Bible. Protestants recognized the Old Testament of the Palestinian Jews.

Nothing wrong with reading early Church theologians. But, remember, even the disciples didn't always understand what Jesus was 'plainly' saying to them. And they were in his presence constantly.

I am for the Catholic Church which I believe to be the universal Church of Jesus Christ. Which I believe every born-again believer is part of. I am against any local church, such as the Roman church, that wants to control the universal or Catholic Church of Jesus Christ. And that is what you have with "Roman Catholicism".

Of course we all as believers act and react to what we believe the Scriptures to be saying. And we should give room for differences of opinions in certain areas. But in some we cannot. We just need to know what those are. I don't mind another group of believers having a difference of opinion and expressing that opinion. I do mind if they believe and try and force that opinion on the whole Church of Christ. Which is what the Roman Church does and wants to do.

Stranger

Hi Stranger
I'm a little confused.
I know the Jews put together the Old Testament.
I know the C C kept books from the O.T. that Luther DID remove at the reformation.

Luther kept all the books in the New Testament. He was Catholic and kept many of those beliefs to his Death, including transubstantiation.

Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit who would make everything clear.
The Apostles didn't understand a lot of things because they didn't really grasp that Jesus was God. They understood everything really well after the resurrection, as evidenced by the book of Mathew and John.

Difference of opinion is fine except in two cases:
I don't like Calvinism, and that's putting it mildly.
And I have a problem with persons who insist that we're to do nothing for God.

Other than that, it's all talk to be able to speak about God and His Word.
So I'm with you there. Everyone has the right to believe what they wish.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, we do not need the institution. Whether it's the C C or any other denomination. "Where 2 or 3 are gathered in His name Christ is in the midst" When a person gets saved, he is baptized into the "body of Christ" not into a denomination or the C C. The Body of Christ is in the world and is made "One" by the Spirit. Jesus prayed that we would be ONE not One church. A group of Muslims who convert to Christianity, do so because Christ brought them the Gospel or appeared in a vision or dream, begin to read His word, pray and assemble in the desert or in caves in fear for their life. These will probably never encounter the C C. Will you deny them heaven because of that?
BoL will not say that these people are lost but neither will he say that they are saved. That's because he believes in a predetermined list of things that one must do in order to be saved which includes been part of the Catholic Church. He is like most Catholics who believe that you are saved by grace + works. But the thief on the cross didn't perform any works. So then BoL says he is an exception. Oh but the Woman at the well didn't perform any works. She just believed and shared and brought revival to her whole village. Ah, but she is another exception, BoL says. What about all the unborn children? Ah, well... they are also exceptions. How many exceptions to we have to afford BoL before we believe his godless theology.

Let me tell you something, there is not a thing on this earth that you can do that will make you acceptable in God's eyes."All our righteousness is as filthy rags" Isiah 64:6
And once you get saved, I trust you know what that means, He makes us "to be the Righteousness of God in Him". Which means that there is nothing you can do after salvation that will make any better, more loved, more accepted in Him. Do you know of any work you can do that will improve on the Righteousness of God?

Having said that, The word says, and I believe to be (what I call) a NT Commandment, "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves" Heb. 10:25 . As we are all member of One Body (not one denomination or institution) the members cannot say to each other I don't need you. The Head cannot say to the feet; "I have no need of you". Notice that the head is Christ and the feet are those who spread the Gospel. Eph. " 6:15 Even Christ is saying He needs us, so much more do we need each other. The eye can't say to the nose " Get out of my face" ;) Pun. We all need each other for support, prayer, reproof, teaching, healing, etc. And when we don't recognize this Paul states that that's why many of us are sick and asleep (dead). God's purpose is community so that with the power of unity we can tear down strongholds for Him. Deu. 32:30 Ecc. 4:12

Many people think that following Jesus and Jesus alone is all they need. Unfortunately that is not the way God intended it. They see things going on in churches that shouldn't be or they were hurt by people in a church context and therefore throw the baby out with the bathwater. They hunt around for a new church, a perfect church, but do not realize that the moment they walk in the door it's not perfect anymore. That's why there are so many denominations. But do you think God cannot save people nevertheless?

Here's a question for you, and please don't feel intimidated.
What would you say is the meaning of, " My Glory shall fill the earth" ?


Just saying, God bless.

My post no. 688 replies to the above.
Have you missed it?
I believe I clicked on "reply"...

 

[BreadOfLife]

I meant "dead" to us. Of course we're never really dead.
Also, I believe I said omnipresent. If not, that's what I meant.

The saints don't need to be omnipresent either to hear our prayers.

Baptising a Whole household. Could be there were children and could be there weren't. A doctrine should not be based on an "iffy" situation that is not certain.

I don't think it's "iffy" at all. It's Apostolic Tradition.
In 2 Thess. 2:15, Paul says the following:
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, WHETHER BY an ORAL STATEMENT - OR BY a letter from us."

As I showed you - the Early Church Fathers attested to this apostolic Tradition.

I'm not certain what you're saying about Mary.
I agree that she's full of grace.
We were discussing the Immaculate Conception and Assumption.

And I explained to you what the Angel said to her in Luke 1:28. He called her "Kecharitomene" which, as I showed you, means FAR more than simply "full of grace."

You can look it up if you don't believe me.

I cannot agree with the assumption.

Why? Because you don't think God has the power to do it?
He did it with Enoch and Elijah - why not Mary.

Can you explain why she is the ONLY creature in Heaven in Revelation who has a full body?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Transfiguration:
God could do whatever He wants to do.
If He wants to show us two people in heaven, so be it.

And if He wants us to ask those in Heaven to pray for us - so be it.

Prayers for the dead:
Here's a prayer for the dead by Ignatius of Antioch. I'm sure you know that he was a student of John and a Bishop after Peter...

PRAYER FOR THE DEAD
Receive in tranquility and peace, O Lord, the souls of your servants who have departed this present life to come to you. Grant them rest and place them in the habitations of light, the abodes of blessed spirits. Give them the life that will not age, good things that will not pass away, delights that have no end, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

As you can see he's praying for God's SERVANTS. As time went on it became more and more a prayer TO the dead. Today we pray even for unsaved persons that they might be forgiven and taken to heaven. I'm sure you must realize how this has grown to be unbiblical in our present time.

Next...

The Catholic Church teaches that we should pray for ALL who have died.
Who are YOU to say somebody is "unsaved"? You can't read their hearts - only GOD can.

As for asking those in Heaven to pray FOR us - I don't see the problem.
Are they NOT still members of the Body of Christ - or have they been kicked out??

James tells us that the prayer of a righteous person is very powerful (James 5:16).
Only those in Heaven are truly righteous . . .

 

[perrero]

Ummmm, what do you call the Transfiguration??

We could say that that was an exception. I'm sure you're familiar with that twist when things don't go your way.

As for the ECFs, sorry but the Word trumps anything they have to say. Everyone of them were deluded and deceived to thinking that praying to the dead was acceptable. Another doctrine of demons.

Rev. 5:8 shows the elders in Heaven taking our prayers before God - and Rev. 8:5 shows the Angels in Heaven doing the SAME thing.

Yes, some have been assigned to take prayers OUR PRAYERS, not the prayers of the saints or dead people, and they are deposited before God not before anybody else because when Jesus taught us to pray, He taught to pray to the FATHER.
It's all there in the Word, just get it straight. And we don't need your ECFs to muddle the waters into believing anything else.

 

[Stranger]

Hi Stranger
I'm a little confused.
I know the Jews put together the Old Testament.
I know the C C kept books from the O.T. that Luther DID remove at the reformation.

Luther kept all the books in the New Testament. He was Catholic and kept many of those beliefs to his Death, including transubstantiation.

Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit who would make everything clear.
The Apostles didn't understand a lot of things because they didn't really grasp that Jesus was God. They understood everything really well after the resurrection, as evidenced by the book of Mathew and John.

Difference of opinion is fine except in two cases:
I don't like Calvinism, and that's putting it mildly.
And I have a problem with persons who insist that we're to do nothing for God.

Other than that, it's all talk to be able to speak about God and His Word.
So I'm with you there. Everyone has the right to believe what they wish.

Well, tell me then, what Bible you use? The Bible of the Roman Church or the Bible of the Protestant Church?

Stranger