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Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Fire-7, Mar 21, 2011.

  1. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    I was very open and honest in my conclusion as per the below.

    The scripture does not provide us a positive i.d on the SATAN "adversary" although some evidence might suggest some of his number had conspired against Job due to his prosperity and apparent righteousness, but this too in only inferred, also some think it might have been an Angel (less likely in my view). Ultimately "the secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us". (Deut. 29:29).

    So these passages are not speaking about a supernatural devil?

    (1 Cor 5:5 1 Tim 1:20).

    I understand their context and lesson...I am seeking your acceptance that Satan here represents in 1 Corin 5:5 is possibly meaning to turn over to civil authorities ( see 1 Th 2:18 & 1 Ti 1:20). It could also mean to disfellowship, ie cast out into the world "Satan". But even if cast out, they must seek recovery of that person. 2 Co 2:6-8.

    And 1 Tim 1:20 is Paul most certainly suggesting these men be placed out of "fellowship" Because they of their actions putting away the true faith see 1 Tim 1:19 compare Mat 18:17: "Let him be unto thee as an heathen man" (or a Gentile).

    No Satan here either.

    But its one of the few examples in Scripture where handing people over to Satan (World, Flesh etc etc) can correct wrong behaviour (but it must be of a very serious nature like 1 Tim 1:19)

    What I am seeking from you here is an understanding, as Joshua did prevoiusly that these passages are not speaking about a supernatural being.


    ps. I should add Joshua only stated that certain verses in the bible were sin personified. I dont want to misquote Joshua :mellow:
  2. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    I forgot to ask you the all important question.

    How could Satan teach these rebellious people not to blaspheme????

    Wouldn’t that be exactly what Satan would want? Doesnt make sense to pass them over to learn something which only God can teach? 1 Cor 5:5 1 Tim 1:20

    Have a look at the context of the verse once more.


    ps. If anything these studies have certainly been informative.

  3. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    1. The devil tempting Jesus Matt 4:1-12 Responded
    2 An eternal fire is prepared for the Devil Matt 25:41 Responded
    3 The Devil has angels Matt 25:41 Responded
    4 The Devil can be resisted James 4:7 Responded
    7 Satan afflicted Job with painful sores Job 2:7 Responded
    5 The Devil spoke to Jesus Luke 4:3 responded with Matt 4
    8 The Lord rebukes Satan Zech 3:2
    10 Satan kept a woman bound by sickness Luke 13:16
    6 The Devil prowls around 1 Peter 5:8

    Joshua - Jesus saw Satan fall from Heaven Luke 10:18

    It appears a number of forum participants have made reference to Satan being a fallen angel. The standard line is that Satan fell prior to Gen 1-3 or course this fits the concept of the serpent being the devil which is totally inferred. But I will deal with that later. The important point is most believed this angel fell before the Garden of Eden account.

    (Jesus Speaking)

    Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan "as" lightning fall from heaven. Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

    If I can make the most obvious point first.

    The passage does not state either that Satan was in heaven, or that he fell from heaven.

    Jesus uses a simile "as". The comparison is not that as lightning falls from heaven so Satan fell from heaven.

    The point of the comparison is rather that the swiftness of the fall of Satan is as lightning falling from heaven.

    What’s also interesting is verse 17 for context -

    Luk 10:17 And the seventy (disciples) returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils (illnesses and disease) are subject unto us through thy name.

    These seventy had been given power to heal the sick Luke 10:9

    So we see here another expression of Satan but use of the sick and lame.

    Satan (adversary) is used by Jesus to describe the binding effect of sin through diseases. A number of passages indicate this:

    Luke 11:14-23 The cause of dumbness (which was attributed to demon or unknown illness at the time Luke 11:14) was associated with the "house" of Satan. Luke 11:17-18. The cure was said to be the "kingdom of God" coming, since the power of the King was present. (Luke 11:20-22).

    Luke 13:10-17 Jesus here healed a woman who had "a spirit of infirmity eighteen years". (Luke 13:11). But this same healing is described as "a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years". (Luke 11:16).

    So Luke 10:17-20 is the victory of the seventy over demons resulted in the dethronement of Satan (the adversary) in his "house". The cures brought about by the disciples were so complete and rapid ( and overwhelming) as to be compared to lightning falling from heaven. Despite this victory over the powers of sin and its effect - disease.

    Jesus then instructs his disciples to rejoice that their names were written in heaven as a result of the healings. (Luke 10:20).

    The key to understanding this passage is very simple.

    In Luke 10:9 Jesus told His 70 apostles to go out and "heal the sick", which they did. They returned and said, Luke 10:17, "even the demons are subject unto us through Thy name" - so demons and illness are equated. Sometimes the apostles cured people in the name of Jesus and here we have an example of this (see also Acts 3:6; Acts 9:34).

    It also helps to appreciate the language of the day. Their language to describe someone as being possessed with demons if they were mentally ill, or, had a disease which no one understood was common. Remember the Roman and Greek cultural then believed that demons possessed people, which implied they (demon) were the source of the mental disease. If 'Christians' today believe in the existence of demons they are effectively saying that the pagan beliefs in this area were perfectly correct.

    How times have changed, and how we has increased in knowledge. Years ago people used to believe that if a person went out walking at night when there was a clear moon, they could get struck by the moon and become mentally ill. We use that word "lunatic" today to describe someone who is mad, but it does not mean that we believe madness is caused by the moon.

    I think we forget these words were written 2000 years ago so our understanding of illnesses such a schizophrenia (Mark 5:9) has advance considerably.
    I have cared for patients with mental illnesses and it is common to see them with what seems like superhuman strength. Mark 5:4.

    I think you are all intelligent enough to know where all these illness came from.

    1 Cor 11:30 shows that due to sin and the flesh many were sick, weak and deing (or asleep)

    I am sure today those devil believers dont believe that we are demon possessed if we suffer from a cold or flue, cancer, heart attacks etc?

    I hope not.

  4. Fire-7

    Fire-7 New Member

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    This thread has gone to another level. But I appreciate the dialogue. It's going to take me some time to digest (read) everything that's been posted here. But at least we are trying to come to a conclusion.
  5. Joshua David

    Joshua David New Member

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    Wow.. too much.. I am afraid that we are getting far ahead of ourselves. I think we need to pull back because I believe that in trying to answer too much at one time, things are getting lost.

    I have to say that you have a very good grasp on humanity's sin nature, as well as sin in general. Your posts are thought provoking to say the least. And while I can't wait to see what else you have in store, I want to back up a little.

    I want to address two specific things with you, one Satan inflicting sores on Job, and two Satan transporting Jesus to the city.

    I have read your posts on Job, and you raise some very good points and make a strong case, please allow me to extend the same courtesy in answering some of your questions and then I want to address a point you made.

    [font="tahoma][quote]How can Satan supposedly attend "a conference" in heaven about Job:[/quote][/font][/font]
    [/size][font="Arial"][font="tahoma] [/font][/size][/font]
    [size="3"][font="tahoma]The answer to the question is that the bible refers to four different Heavens. I know, I know some of you are like [/font][/font][img]http://www.christianityboard.com/public/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif[/img] but...but..but Joshua [font="tahoma] [/font][font="tahoma]I have heard the bible refer to the third heaven, but where do you get four? Come on, be honest, you did say that didn't you? [/font][img]http://www.christianityboard.com/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif[/img] But don't worry, because I am going to explain. These are the four Heavens that the bible refers too.[/size]
    First Heaven - What we consider our atmosphere. The air.
    Second Heaven - What we consider the universe, the stars, the planets,
    Third Heaven - What I call the intermediate Heaven, the current Throne of God. The place where the spirits of the saints of the church go when they die.
    Fourth Heaven - Otherwise known as the New Heaven and New Earth. The redeemed Heaven. The eternal throne of God. Where God will dwell with Man for eternity.

    Let's look at just two scriptures about the first Heaven.

    Gen 1:7-8 [sup]7[/sup]And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [sup]8[/sup]And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

    Also a curious point to be made here. The second day is the only day in the 'creation week' that God did not declare something good. Day one the light was good, day three the earth was good, but day two... he didn't call anything good. Could this be because something that wasn't good ( Satan and his angels) took up residence there?

    So when Job said that Satan was met in conference before God, it could have very well been in the first Heaven where Satan was already. This could also be where Satan supposedly accuses us before God day and night.

    [font="tahoma][quote]How then could a rebel angel have access to heaven from before the creation of Adam and Eve? Or how can Satan be cast out of heaven before the creation of Adam and Eve, and manage to regain access to heaven?[/quote][/font]
    [font="tahoma]Easy, what they lost was the third Heaven, the Dwelling place of God. So they inhabited the third Heaven and God allowed it for his own purposes.[/font]
    [font="tahoma][quote]So God will isn’t done in Heaven?[/quote][/font]
    [/size][size="3"][font="tahoma] [/font][/size]
    [size="3"][font="tahoma]Of course, I believe that Jesus is talking about the third Heaven here, the Dwelling place of God, so that is will is followed.[/font]
    [/font][font="tahoma][/font][quote][font="tahoma]I find it strange that Job NEVER acknowledges the fallen angel considering all that happened to him? Rather he attributes it to God.

    [b]"The hand of God hath touched me".[/b] [url="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Job%2019.21"]Job 19:21[/url] compare Job 2:10

    Even Job's brethren, sisters and acquaintances acknowledged that the evil was brought upon Job by the LORD:

    "they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him." (Job 42:11).

    [font="tahoma][url="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Job%2042.11"]Job 42:11[/url] must cause all kinds of trouble for Devil believers?
    [font="tahoma] [/font]
    [font="Arial"]Not really, Job may not acknowledge that Satan touches him, but the bible does, all through the book of Job. Job had no knowledge of what was going on between God and Satan, and neither did his 'friends' but God through the Holy Spirit, reveals it to us. [/font]

    [font="tahoma][quote][/font]The scripture does not provide us a positive i.d on the SATAN although some evidence might suggest some of his number had conspired against Job due to his prosperity and apparent righteousness, but this too in only inferred, also some think it might have been an Angel (less likely in my view). Ultimately [b]"the secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us". ([url="http://biblia.com/bible/esv/Deut.%2029.29"]Deut. 29:29[/url])[font="tahoma].[/font][/b][font="tahoma][/quote][/font][/font]
    [font="Arial"][font="tahoma]But the scripture does provide us with enough information if we are to accept it. We know that bible states that Satan, whatever he is, conversed with God, destroyed Job's wealth in an instant, killed his family in an instant, and inflicted him with extremely painful boils. [/font][/font]
    [font="tahoma]Now from your earlier posts, I see three possible explanations for what Satan is, [/font]
    [/size][font="tahoma] [/font]
    [font="tahoma][size="3"]1) Some sort of supernatural being

    [font="tahoma][size="3"]2) the flesh, sin nature or the carnal mind of man
    [font="tahoma][size="3"]3) a human that stands as an adversary[/size][/font]
    [font="tahoma] [/font]
    [font="tahoma][size="3"]While I don't believe that every time we get the flu we are possessed by a devil, neither do I believe that catching a virus, can destroy my wealth and family in an instant.[/size][/font]
    [font="tahoma] [/font]
    [font="tahoma][size="3"]Also while I see a human being able to ruin me and killing my family, I do not see him being able to control fire from heaven or causing the wind to destroy the house that my family was in, neither do I see that human causing me to rupture out in boils.[/size][/font]
    [font="tahoma] [/font]
    [font="tahoma][size="3"]So since the sin nature option doesn't make sense at all, and the human agent option is beyond their capability, the only option that remains, and still stay true to the word of God is that Satan was a supernatural being.[/size][/font]

    The same can be said of Satan transporting Jesus to the city during his temptation, in order to maintain your assertion that Satan was nothing more than Jesus' carnal nature, you have to say that it was all internal, which is the same as saying that the scripture lied. The bible never calls what Jesus experienced a vison, or a dream or even a hunger induced hallucination. It said it really happened. So if we take the word of God at face value, and say that what it said happen, did happen, then your personification explanation falls apart, and we are left with the three option again. And since the carnal nature can't do it, neither can a human do it, then we are left with no other option but to say that either a supernatural being die it or the bible is false. The bible said it happened, and it either happened or it didn't. If you say that the bible is true, then it happened, if you say that it didn't happen, then you are saying that the bible is false. I don't see any other way around it.

    Joshua David
  6. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    First Heaven - What we consider our atmosphere. The air. Correct :rolleyes:
    Second Heaven - What we consider the universe, the stars, the planets, Correct :rolleyes:
    Third Heaven - What I call the intermediate Heaven, the current Throne of God. The place where the spirits of the saints of the church go when they die. :wacko: Moved away from scripture - you still fail to acknowledge the true nature of man as per prevoius posts.
    Fourth Heaven - Otherwise known as the New Heaven and New Earth. The redeemed Heaven. The eternal throne of God. Where God will dwell with Man for eternity. :wacko: :blink:

    Straight away I can see errors in the above list.

    But before moving our discussion into the realms of the heavenlies. I will need your permission to do so, as I acknowledge a great deal of information has already been provided.

    How do you want this to proceed?


    ps. I think in time you could possibly see option 2 or 3 as a more feasible option for Jobs adversary...due to a misunderstand of Angels, Heaven, Human Nature and its Adverse affects to Gods divine plan.
  7. Joshua David

    Joshua David New Member

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    Well, why don't you address the last part of my post, I will repost here so that there is no misunderstanding.

    So we don't derail this thread, why don't you start a new thread with your reply on the heavens, and this way we can try to keep this thread from spiraling out of control.

    Joshua David
  8. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Here I will deal with Job and begin another post on the heavens.

    So where did the adversary come from?

    Job 1:7 The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered the Lord, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

    What’s interesting about this passage is it appears to be the language used normally of angels. Of course you could come back and say Sata’s little helpers have free reign is some heavenly abode??...but still must consider the language below:

    Zech 1:10—The man who stood among the myrtle trees answered, “These are the ones whom the Lord has sent to walk to and fro throughout the earth.”

    2 Chr 16:9—For the eyes of the Lord run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of those whose heart is loyal to Him.

    The other issue to the idea of Satan speaking with God. When we consider how far He has distanced Himself from his earth due to sin, it is difficult to see God and some abhorrent evil manifestation in "peaceable" discussion about the life of Job. Arch enemies discussing the life of one man, and none other? What’s so special about Job?..That Satan should take such interest?

    Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse you to your face!”-Job 1:9

    Job 1:9—Satan answered the Lord, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, his possessions have increased in the land. But stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

    First of all consider the emphasis Satan places on Job’s life:

    You have protected him and his household
    You have place a hedge around and protected all he has
    He has great possessions

    Everything listed has nothing to do with his relationship with God! and everything to do with his material prosperity. Why would Satan care about what Job’s possessions?

    Isn’t that what we do?

    Is Satan implying that Job’s great righteousness is self-serving? Maybe that his real motive for loving and fearing God was for self-benefit? So Satan in many ways is scoffing at Job’s faith, but also at what he perceived to be God’s method of making sons by rewarding faithful service with bountiful prosperity in this life.

    Satan no doubt is “one” full of envy not in terms of his relationship with God BUT what he has his possessions.

    So why did God permit this great evil to come upon the righteous Job?

    Job 1:12—So the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

    All sorts of issues arise here.

    If Satan is a demonic being "full of hate" and every evil thing, and ho has been given authority by God to afflict his son:

    Why would Satan need Gods authority? Does this mean every person your Satan wants to hurt needs Gods approval?
    Why should Satan do as God has instructed?
    Satan appears to have morality and can be trusted? Is this consistent with your teaching of Satan?

    Many scriptures show people being delivered into the hands of wicked people, even Jesus himself.

    Job 16:11 G
    od has delivered me (Job) to the ungodly, and turned me over to wicked hands.

    No mention of Satan??? So even Job himself acknowledge God handed him over to ungodly (always real people) wicked hands (again real people)

    Acts 2:23 Him (Jesus), being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death.

    The righteous, the wise and their works are in the hand of God (Eccl 9:1).

    However this Satan whoever it was had been proved wrong about Job.

    Job 2:1—Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came among them to present himself before the Lord. The Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” Satan answered, “From going to and fro on the earth, from walking back and forth on it.” Then the Lord said, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless, upright manStill he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause[for no reason, undeservedly; which will be misconstrued by nearly all]. “yet we ourselves esteemed Him (Jesus) stricken, smitten of God, afflicted” (Isa 53:4).

    Read Isaiah 53 – Everything Jesus suffered was done by God!

    But Satan felt God had not gone far enough to test his servant:

    Job 2:4—Satan answered the Lord and said, “Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has he will give for his life. But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

    Continually it appears your Satan is powerless having absolutely no authority to act with Gods guidance!!! This Satan "adversary now states Job is being utterly selfish willing to suffer the loss of his family and possessions if he could save his own skin!

    In other words this Satan again is focusing his thoughts on Job material possessions? He cares about himself too much, he won’t allow this to go on much further!

    God test Job to the uttermost!

    Job 2:6—The Lord said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.” So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord, and struck Job with painful boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head. And he took for himself a potsherd with which to scrape himself while he sat in the midst of the ashes.

    Satan doesn’t know much does he! All these assumptions where wrong about Job, almost like he thought he knew Job from his external, but couldn’t look upon the heart of Job. This Satan was convinced Job’s devotion to God would vanish if He extended the trial to his person. Job would then find no further benefit in knowing God and would renounce Him.

    Faced with intense suffering and certain death after prolonged pain, would he hold fast his confidence firm unto the end?

    Who bought the Evil upon Job!

    All knew that God had brought the evil upon Job.

    Adversary: Job 1:11 Stretch out Your hand and touch¼ (2:5)

    Job: Job 1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. (2:10)

    Job 6:4 The arrows of the Almighty are within me.

    Job 9:17 He (God) crushes me¼multiplies my wounds without cause.

    Job 10:8 Your hands made me¼yet You would destroy me.

    Job 19:6 Know then that God has wronged me.

    Job 27:2 As God lives, who has taken away my justice.

    Friends: Job 5:17 Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.

    Job 8:4 He has cast your sons away for their transgression.

    Job 11:6 God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.

    God: Job 2:3 You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.

    Job 42:11 All the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him.

    All of Job’s afflictions were controlled by God with great precision: the Sabeans, lightning, Chaldeans, tornado, leprosy.

    Even his wife could not help when he needed her the most.

    Job 2:9
    —Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold to your integrity? Curse God and die!” [Keep on serving God and die!] But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we accept good from God, and shall we not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

    James 3:2,8—We all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body. But no man can tame the tongue.


    Satan disappears after chapter 2 no mention of the adversary thereafter. Job is never warned of Satan, nor is there any discussion with friends concerning his adversary. God sees the Satan as a means of teaching Job more about Himself and bringing Job and Him closer together???

    Job humbled himself and cast off any sense of self importance.
    God put Jobs mind at rest.
    God rewarded Job with double even restoring his children.
    No sense of victory over the Satan. This is due to Jobs life teaching all his friends and the “adversary” God Righteousness and assessment of His children is always right.

    If after all this evidence you feel Satan is a supernatural being…then I must expound with more conviction to convince you all Satan is not a supernatural being.

  9. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    United States
    First off, it needs to clarified that Lucifer is not Satan the Devil, as some presume from reading Isaiah 14:12. The context shows that the one whom the King James Bible renders as "Lucifer" (Lucifer", Latin, meaning literally "light bearer", and which originated with Jerome's Latin Vulgate Bible in the 5th century) is the king of ancient Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar and is from the Hebrew heh·lel´, meaning literally "the bringer of dawn". This can be seen in the fact that Isaiah 14:16 says that "those seeing you will gaze even at you; they will give close examination even to you, [saying,] ‘Is this the man that was agitating the earth, that was making kingdoms rock ?" and then God says that "I will cut off from Babylon name and remnant and progeny and posterity,” is the utterance of Jehovah."(Isa 14:22)

    Secondly, God is not omnipresent, for he has a heavenly location, for Isaiah 66:1 says that "this is what Jehovah has said: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool." He is though all-powerful, calling himself "God Almighty" at Genesis 17:1. Proverbs 3:19, 20 says that "Jehovah himself in wisdom founded the earth. He solidly fixed the heavens in discernment. By his knowledge the watery deeps themselves were split apart, and the cloudy skies keep dripping down light rain."

    Third, he is not "all-knowing" or omniscient, but selectively chooses to know and reveal future events or situations, as shown in the Bible books of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation, to name just a few. In regard to the immoral conditions that existed in Sodom and Gomorrah, Jehovah said: "The cry of complaint about Sod´om and Go·mor´rah, yes, it is loud, and their sin, yes, it is very heavy. I am quite determined to go down that I may see whether they act altogether according to the outcry over it that has come to me, and, if not, I can get to know it.”(Gen 18:20, 21) God has given free-will to all mankind and thus allows them to chose which course they will take, righteous or unrighteous.

    Fourth, sin did not originate in heaven, but rather on the earth, in the Garden of Eden.(Gen 3:1-7; Rom 5:12) Jehovah did not make a mistake in creating the one that eventually became Satan the Devil, for even the angels were created with free moral agency and that is why a sum of them left Jehovah God and followed Satan.(Gen 6:4; Rev 12:9) A child, when born, is not a murderer, but can become one when he has attained an age capable of killing someone. He chooses to harden his heart and become a manslayer. Satan chose to leave Jehovah God and set out on an independent course, which will soon result in his being "abyssed"(Rev 20:1-3) and at the end of Jesus "thousand year reign" his (and the demons) complete annihilation.(Rev 20:10)

    The "tree of knowledge of good and bad" was prepared as a test for the new human couple.(Gen 2:17) They were given free will and God did not need to to see if they would sin, for the test of the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" in the middle of the garden would prove itself out one way or the other. They both chose to rebel. Had Adam and Eve not violated God's command, then this would have changed the course of history as we now know it. There would have been no need of a "redeemer" and thus Jesus Christ shed blood would not have been necessary.

    Fifth, Jehovah God is not behind all the disasters, for James 1:13 says that "with evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone." Because of failure to read context, some have misread Isaiah 45:7. The subject under discussion was the downfall of ancient Babylon by means of "Cyrus" the Persian.(Isa 45:1) The words of Isaiah 45:7 were addressed to Cyrus, for, in order to fulfill his word regarding the downfall of Babylon on October 5/6, 539 B.C.E., Jehovah God is one "forming light and creating darkness, making peace and creating calamity, I, Jehovah, am doing all these things."

    And if our Creator is one who burns "bad" people in a "hellfire" for eternity, then he cannot be a God of love and would make him out to be a liar, for he had condemned the nation of Israel for burning their children to the god Molech, calling it an "abomination" and a "sin".(Jer 32:35, King James Bible) If, on the other hand, our Creator is a God of love, as the apostle John says at 1 John 4:8, then he cannot torment even wicked people in a "hellfire". The two are diametrically opposed, for he cannot eternally torment "bad" people and yet says that is loving.

    In addition, Jesus used hyperboles, metaphors, similies and illustrations extensively. If one is to take literal what Jesus said regarding "the everlasting fire", then one must take literal what else Jesus said in same verse: "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."(Matt 18:8, King James Bible) Did Jesus mean literally that a person was to "cut....off " his feet or hands if these are making them stumble ? No. Then neither did Jesus mean literally that a person was going to be "cast into everlasting fire", for this is symbolic of everlasting destruction.

    Both the 'cutting off of one's foot' and "everlasting fire" are symbolisms that neither the churches nor others have discerned, but instead continues to push hard for a "hellfire". If this is the case, then let the principle that Jesus gave apply to them, that "with the measure that you are measuring out, they will measure out to you."(Matt 7:1) In another instance, was Jesus words to be taken literal, whereby he said that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" ?(Matt 19:24, King James Bible) Or did James mean literally that "the tongue is a fire" at James 3:6 ?

    Because of a person's unreasonableness, it is impossible to grasp what the Bible really teaches. Thus, though many will profess to be "Christian", these fail the test of true Christianity, for as Jesus said: "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you ! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness."(Matt 7:21-23)

    The apostle Paul wrote: "Let your reasonableness become known to all men."(Phil 4:5) Many, though professing Christianity, are, as Jesus noted, are unreasonable, unwilling to examine the Bible without prejudice or bias. Hence, that is why Jesus called many of these "workers of lawlessness." The doctrine of "hellfire" that the churches have taught over the centuries is just one example of being unreasonable and unloving and those that teach it will receive ' the measure that they are measuring out.' (Rev 18:4-6)
  10. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Best you read all the posts.

    Usual Church dogma's above....looks impressive well laid out but 2 Peter 2:16-18 applies.

    I will wait for Joshua who has a measure of widom to respond.


    ps. and I thought you had truth [​IMG]
  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    [font="tahoma][size="2"]Guestman in reference to you comment posted above how do you reconcile your thought (the part in bold) with what Peter wrote here?[/size][/font]
    [font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
    [color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][size="2"]For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And the ransom he paid was not mere gold or silver. [/size][/font]
    He paid for you with the precious lifeblood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him for this purpose long before the world began, but now in these final days, he was sent to the earth for all to see. And he did this for you. 1Peter 1:18-20
  12. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    If a person is not kidnapped, is there a need for a ransom to be paid ? If no one is taken captive, is there anyone to exchange for money ? Hence, had Adam not rebelled in the Garden of Eden, then it would not have been necessary for a "corresponding ransom" to be given.(1 Tim 2:5, 6) Only because of Adam breaking God's command concerning the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" did it become necessary for Jesus Christ to come to the earth and become a "corresponding ransom", a perfect man for a perfect man.("corresponding ransom", Greek, an·ti´ly·tron (from an·ti´, “against; in correspondence to; in place of,” and ly´tron, “ransom [price paid]”; the King James Bible fails to bring forth the full import by using only the word "ransom" instead of "corresponding ransom" at 1 Tim 2:6)

    The account at 1 Peter 1:18-20 does not say that God knew that Adam would sin in advance, but that the "precious blood" of Jesus was now foreknown to be needed "before the founding of the world." Peter used the Greek word ka·ta·bo·les´ that is translated as "founding of the world" and literally means "a throwing down of seed", that Jesus also used at Matthew 25:34, Luke 11:50 and John 17:24. This Greek word means before Adam and Eve had children or "before the founding of the world" of mankind, not the "earth."(Hebrew erets, Greek ge)

    At John 17:24, Jesus said: "Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. " Moments after Adam had sinned in the Garden of Eden and "before the founding of the world" or children were conceived (children are called a man or woman's "seed" and at conception is then noted as "a throwing down of seed", as in throwing seed on the ground for planting), God took action to redeem mankind that would come to love him by giving the first prophesy at Genesis 3:15, whereby the "serpent" Satan would "bruise the woman's seed in the heel" (when Jesus was put to death on the torture stake) but the "woman's seed (or Jesus Christ) will bruise the serpent in the head"(when Satan is destroyed at the end of Jesus millennial reign, Rev 20:10)

    The apostle Paul used the Greek word ka·ta·bo·les´ at Hebrews 4:3 in respect to the nation of Israel's lack of faith and thus barred from "entering into God's rest" though "his works were finished from the founding of the world". Paul further used ka·ta·bo·les´ at Hebrews 9:26 concerning Jesus having to "suffer often from the founding of the world" if his sacrifice was like those that the high priest gave yearly in the tabernacle or temple.

    Therefore, had Adam not broke Jehovah God's command to not eat of "the tree of knowledge of good and bad"(Gen 2:17), then the need for a ransom or redeemer would not have been necessary, but only became as such "from before the founding of the world", when he and Eve rebelled before they ' threw down seed' or had children.
  13. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    and so daily I ask God,

    How do you tell a women in africa holding her starving child in her arms that God loves her.
    How do you tell a man who just had his family wiped out in a flood, that God loves Him
    or a child that just lost his family in a plane crash or a women who has being raped, or beaten .
    or a child that was molested, or the home less.

    Tell me pray, this may all be our own doing, our selfishness, our greed, our unlovingness too one another, but why is it that God seems to step in in one situation and not another, prayer or not, if God is causing all this calamity, then how is it that people are going to believe He is a loving God. Quoting scripture is the easy way out, it may make you feel rightous cause you can, but it doesnt prove you know God. I wish I had all the answers, I wish I could understand, why, but its way above my understanding. Maybe one day. Ill be able to go to africa, and sit with a women with her starving child, and just love them by being there, and being a friend, who kows, the maybe she will see that God really does love her.

    in His Love
  14. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Hi Joshua,

    I must admit I have never heard the above interpretation and in response I am trying to be polite...practising restraint.^_^

    The below puts it to rest in my view.

    Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good (means beautiful). And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

    How can God say this if Satan had taken up residence in the Garden :unsure: Gods beautiful and my beautiful must be drastically different, BUT we know the truth don’t we Joshua?

    Do you know "very good" is never ascribed by God towards man. Instead, in recognition that man would go astray, God later declares: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth" (Gen. 8:21). "God hath made man upright," declared Solomon (Ecc. 7:29)

    Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they (man) have sought out many inventions.

    The supernatural being one of them!...just mans evil heart once again.


  15. WhiteKnuckle

    WhiteKnuckle New Member

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    Sin isn't God's will, by any means.

    God's will is that no one sin, and all repent and all believe. That's how we should pray, We should pray for the Lords will, not ours.
  16. Guestman

    Guestman Active Member

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    Those that carefully read Jesus words at Matthew 24:4-14, hopefully can discern that the "pangs of distress" (Matt 24:8) are now common and increasing. Even true Christians are not immune from the problems that are plaguing mankind, such as "food shortages"(Matt 24:7), that at times, results in a children starving. Jesus foretold that terrible situations and events that the world is experiencing is a direct result of his (invisible) "presence" in kingdom power ("presence", Greek parousia, Matt 24:3) and is not caused by God, but rather is allowing it to happen, for the "world" of mankind are those who are alienated from God, and is under the manipulative control of Satan.(Luke 4:5, 6; 1 John 5:19)

    At Revelation 6:2, a rider on "white horse" is seen with a "bow" and "a crown" is given him, whereby he goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest." Who is the one that rides on "a white horse" with a "bow"( that stands for righteous warfare) and is given "a crown" or kingship ? Jesus Christ, for Daniel 7:13, 14 says that "someone like a son of man" (Matt 8:20) came before "the Ancient of Days" (Jehovah God, Ps 90:1, 2) and received "rulership and dignity and kingdom."

    As a result of Jesus receiving "rulership and dignity and kingdom", with the birth of God's kingdom (Rev 12:5), Revelation 12:7-9 says that "war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."

    Because Satan and his demons are restricted to the vicinity of the earth, unable to leave this area and return to heaven, he is greatly angered. Revelation 12:12 says that "on this account be glad, you heavens, and you who reside in them ! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time". Hence, since Jesus enthronement in kingdom power in 1914, Satan has realized that his time is short, but all the more so since now we are living in the last of the "last days." Thus, the earth is now having ' woes ' or great troubles, due to Satan "having great anger".

    As a consequence of Jesus being given a "crown" of rulership so that God's kingdom was now born in 1914 and then casting Satan and his demons out of heaven down to the earth, Revelation 6:4 says that "a fiery-colored horse" came forth, depicting global warfare, "and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him." When was the entire earth at war for the first time in history ? With WWI that began on July 28, 1914, when Austria declared war on Serbia, because a young Serb, Gavilo Princip, assassinated Austrian Archduke Francis Ferdinand on June 28, 1914.

    Eventually WWI involved some 93 percent of the world's population, with 28 countries directly in the war. Jesus said that this world war, along with it's subsequent food shortages that ravished many nations (and that has not relented even down till our day), was just a "beginning of pangs of distress."(Matt 24:8) Many more "woes" were to follow and with greater intensity.(Rev 12:12)

    Revelation 12:13 says that "when the dragon saw that it was hurled down to the earth, it persecuted the woman that gave birth to the male child." The "woman" spoken of here is not any human woman, but is symbolic of God's heavenly body of loyal spirit sons that reside in heaven. The "male child" is not Jesus Christ, but is symbolic of that which was "born" or came into existence when Jesus was given a "crown", God's kingdom in 1914. However, since Satan and his demons cannot leave the confines of the earth, then how are they able to persecute the "woman" ?

    Revelation 12:17 says that "the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus." Through persecuting the ' woman's seed ', those who are observing all of God's commandments and are "bearing witness to Jesus", that he is now ruling as king of God's Kingdom, is Satan able to persecute the "woman". Satan does not personally persecute the ' woman's seed ' but uses his "seed" to persecute the "seed" of the "woman".(Gen 3:15)

    Satan's "seed" is the "world" of mankind that is alienated from God and hate (enmity) the "seed" of the "woman". On the other hand, the "seed" of the "woman", those whom that are Abraham's "seed"(Gen 22:18) consist of the 144,000 that are chosen by God to serve as "kings and priests", that make up God's kingdom.(Rev 1:6; 5: 9,10) The apostle Paul wrote that "not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel." Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children....That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed."(Rom 9:6-8)
  17. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Sorry for the delay in posting. First of all I will say not every time the word Satan is used it is referring to a supernatural being. You are correct there. In the same sense most times it is referenced I would say it is. Relying on translations does not help (as for myself I do not read greek or hebrew). In all things God authors good. He is not responsible for evil. The one who sins is just that. I would not call in Satan for the scapegoat either. As far as scripture provides he is usually asking some questions to tempt not forcing the issue. As far as a real being (cherub) existing, I would say we will have to agree to disagree respectfully. Honestly if you chose not to believe in the Devil that is your opinion. I would say you leave yourself vulnerable for attack, but ultimately it is your belief in Christ that is the only concern. It is not our knowledge of heavenly hosts that gains our admittance to God's kingdom.
  18. Alethos

    Alethos New Member

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    Thank you for your repsonse.

    The real issue with the false teaching is more to do with understanding correctly;

    Human Nature
    Sin & Death
    Angels and their position before God.
    End times prophecy - which has seroius consequences

    Well you get the picture.

    I admire your honesty in stating not every instance is referring to some supernatural being. You are further in front than most Christians if this is the case. Because the scriptures come o life when you really understand what the Master is teaching. I would encourage you to go now and look at the many occurences and discover truth.

    Below is every occurence of Satan or adversary in the OT. May your eyes be opened :rolleyes:

    Numbers 22:22 "And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him."

    Numbers 22:32 "And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me:"

    1 Samuel 29:4 "And the princes of the Philistines were wroth with him; and the princes of the Philistines said unto him, Make this fellow return, that he may go again to his place which thou hast appointed him, and let him not go down with us to battle, lest in the battle he be an adversary to us: for wherewith should he reconcile himself unto his master? should it not be with the heads of these men?"

    2 Samuel 19:22 "And David said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah, that ye should this day be adversaries unto me? shall there any man be put to death this day in Israel? for do not I know that I am this day king over Israel?"

    1 Kings 5:4 "But now the LORD my God hath given me rest on every side, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent."

    1 Kings 11:14 "And the LORD stirred up an adversary unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite: he was of the king's seed in Edom."

    1 Kings 11:23 "And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:"

    1 Kings 11:25 "And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria."

    1 Chronicles 21:1 "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

    Ezra 4:6 "And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they unto him an accusation(sitnah) against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem."

    Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."

    Job 1:7 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

    Job 1:8 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?"

    Job 1:9 "Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?"

    Job 1:12 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD."

    Job 2:1 "Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD."

    Job 2:2 "And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."

    Job 2:3 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

    Job 2:4 "And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life."

    Job 2:6 "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life."

    Job 2:7 "So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown."

    Psalms 38:20 "They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is."

    Psalms 71:13 "Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonour that seek my hurt."

    Psalms 109:4 "For my love they are my adversaries: but I give myself unto prayer."

    Psalms 109:6 "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand."

    Psalms 109:20 "Let this be the reward of mine adversaries from the LORD, and of them that speak evil against my soul."

    Psalms 109:29 "Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle."

    Zechariah 3:1 "And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him."

    Zechariah 3:2 "And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"
  19. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    You are wrong! Peter is Peter. Satan is Satan.
  20. Duckybill

    Duckybill New Member

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    Which translation are you quoting from?
    It's clear that you are denying the eternal fire. Do you also deny Jesus/God?

    Scripture gives plenty of info about Satan.

    Revelation 20:2 (NKJV)
    [sup]2 [/sup]He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;