You are simply guessing.You believe the angels sinned, so this cannot be speaking to obediant angels.
To this you would agree.
Therefore, this verse must include "all" angels who sinned? And because its not singling out any one group, one can only conclude its speaking to all your angels which have sinned...becuase only they can be demons, right?
Plural = many
Many = all
Why because its all the angels which sinned are chained awaiting judgement.
What! Do you want to keep some who are not chained?
Alethos
Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?
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Alethos
New Member
I guess your point is that Satan doesn't exist or is totally powerless. Wouldn't you agree that Satan would send his ministers to say that?
Alethos
New Member
So in the above statement you acknowledge they (fallen angels) are totally powerless, because they are chained in darkness awaiting a future judgement.
I mean you must believe this because that’s what it states? Right?
He (satan) and his ministers are chained in darkness and we already agreed they can do no harm.
So you have nothing to fear.
I have perused this line of reasoning to demonstrate the foolishness of this interpretation. This verse cannot support your belief, it actually does your belief more harm as we have proved.
The below questions remain unanswered:
"angels which kept not their first estate"
Ducky how were they chained?
Where are they chained?
What took place here Ducky that caused your fallen angels to be locked up and bound?
The verse is in past tense so its already happened, but when, where, how & why?
Why do they need judging?
Do these fallen angels have the oppertunity to be forgiven? and given a place back in heaven?
What was their first estate?
Where are we told in the Scriptures about this incident?
Maybe Joshua can help us to resolve this issue?
Alethos
I mean you must believe this because that’s what it states? Right?
He (satan) and his ministers are chained in darkness and we already agreed they can do no harm.
So you have nothing to fear.
I have perused this line of reasoning to demonstrate the foolishness of this interpretation. This verse cannot support your belief, it actually does your belief more harm as we have proved.
The below questions remain unanswered:
"angels which kept not their first estate"
Ducky how were they chained?
Where are they chained?
What took place here Ducky that caused your fallen angels to be locked up and bound?
The verse is in past tense so its already happened, but when, where, how & why?
Why do they need judging?
Do these fallen angels have the oppertunity to be forgiven? and given a place back in heaven?
What was their first estate?
Where are we told in the Scriptures about this incident?
Maybe Joshua can help us to resolve this issue?
Alethos
Satan send his ministers to tell us that he is powerless. What are you trying to accomplish?
Alethos
New Member
Good question Ducky
What have I accomplished? Well to begin with I have accomplished nothing...only that which my Father will allow. The truth is my only concern. And thus far, I believe the Father has been very fruitful.
We have taught that your satan is not only is powerless, but is a falsehood created in the imaginations of men minds to instil fear and apportion blame. That the more questions we ask, the less we know, which is totally the opposite to those we ask of the Father.
As a result of our discussion I know Jesus a little better (John 8) and the frustrations he endured from those not willing to hear the words of his Father. In some strange way I am thankful, I can identify with the Master in this way.
I have endeavoured to ask many questions of your satan, which you passionately believe and uphold. Today, once again many questions are asked, and all remain unanswered, because I now know you don’t any answers.
How can you answer question about something which doesnt exist?
This of itself should teach others in this forum a great deal more than my words can express.
Ducky, you defend the devil and satan more passionately than any other in this forum, although you know nothing about him. Believers reading this should at the very least question their own beliefs and not take on my words, but search the Scriptures themselves and discover truth.
You can read over the many posts and questions which are still unresolved. Never be afraid to ask questions of the Word of God (James 1:3-5) because if they are made in faith, HE who is faithful will answer.
Thankfully Jesus showed us how to destroy the devil during his faithful life, death and resurrection. Heb 2:14 & 1 John 3:8 (Thank you my Lord and Saviour).
Alethos
If you want to disprove THE DEVIL then you should stop quoting Scriptures that tell us about THE DEVIL.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
I have read through this thread and I agree, there is a great deal of information; here are some observations:
1. Asking questions is a good practice for learning, but it can also be reductionistic. Too many questions asked about any subject will end in meaninglessness. Our reason is only capable of leading us so far before we need to employ Kierkegaard's 'leap of faith'. My point is that it is a fallacy to assume your point of view is correct because people cannot answer your questions or there is not enough information available to answer your questions.
2. Truth, many of your posts that question the fall of Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels and their judgment and captivity employ a linear timeline. As we know from science - time is an illusion. It was used by humans to keep a record of history and can be see only as a measurement of space. God is outside of time. In fact, if you imagine history stretched out in a straight line and then view the line from the top down it becomes a point. All the events of history have already happened, are happening now and have not happened yet. Only humans think linearly.
3. Not all doctrine was developed or explained fully in the NT. People had to process the deep truths of God's word for centuries before important ideas which were already believed, could be fully explained. The doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine of the Incarnation, the canon of scripture, and the role of Satan in creation are some examples of truths that were believed by the early church, but not developed fully until centuries later.
blessings
1. Asking questions is a good practice for learning, but it can also be reductionistic. Too many questions asked about any subject will end in meaninglessness. Our reason is only capable of leading us so far before we need to employ Kierkegaard's 'leap of faith'. My point is that it is a fallacy to assume your point of view is correct because people cannot answer your questions or there is not enough information available to answer your questions.
2. Truth, many of your posts that question the fall of Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels and their judgment and captivity employ a linear timeline. As we know from science - time is an illusion. It was used by humans to keep a record of history and can be see only as a measurement of space. God is outside of time. In fact, if you imagine history stretched out in a straight line and then view the line from the top down it becomes a point. All the events of history have already happened, are happening now and have not happened yet. Only humans think linearly.
3. Not all doctrine was developed or explained fully in the NT. People had to process the deep truths of God's word for centuries before important ideas which were already believed, could be fully explained. The doctrine of the Trinity, the doctrine of the Incarnation, the canon of scripture, and the role of Satan in creation are some examples of truths that were believed by the early church, but not developed fully until centuries later.
blessings
Alethos
New Member
Jesus speaking...
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
So am I right in saying you believe we can over seek, over knock? Are you implying Jesus had limitations to his seeking of the Father? or are you implying the quality of the questions being asked. Maybe you are saying that every question I have asked is meaningless? Others have found them to provoke thought and opened the Word of God to give further light.
If you are not able to answer a question, one must exercise honesty, which I have seen with Joshua on numerous occasions. And if you imply many do not know the answers then we must ask why? Are "all" the questions meaningless? Surely not!
You mentioned you read through the thread and yet in your overview you chose not address one of questions concerning satan and devil but rather take some broad macro view and question the validity of my thoughts? Aspen, why not take me to the Word of God and declare an understanding of the Devil & Satan?
If you ask me to Prove God is righteous I could provide 100 quotes and I am sure you could also, but when it comes to this topic all we get is theological phrases but nothing with any sound scriptural backing.
I am confused. How does the above increase our understanding of the satan and devil? God being outside our timeline doesn’t exempt us from understanding prophecy, Jesus Christ, angels, God nor the true nature of the devil.
Take for instance your comment "the fall of Lucifer" its like a throw away comment that you say without question. And yet where is the evidence? Where is the scripture that proves your belief? Prove "all" things?
Here is another example in your comment "the role of satan in creation" but where are the scriptures? the chapters and verses that outline his role? How have you come to this understanding? Have you study the scriptures to find this creature? What scriptures did you use to form a basis of your belief? I am not going to insult your spiritual integrity to say its blind belief, or that you have heeded an expert? But surely you have considered and reconsider such an important doctrine as a supernatural being?
Heb 2:14 & 1 John 3:8 after 150 posts these simple quotations still go unanswered.
How did Jesus destroy the devil through his death?
What is the source of the works of the devil?
How did Jesus destroy the works of the devil?
If these questions could be phrased with greater intelligence, I am happy for you to change them? Like I said I am a simple man, uneducated, but the scriptures are able to make the simple wise unto salvation.
They ought not to be complicated.
Alethos
That Satan (meaning resistor) is real and an unseen spirit is seen in several Biblical accounts. In many places in the Hebrew Scriptures, commonly called the Old Testament, the word sa·tan´ appears without the definite article. Used in this way, it applies in its first appearance to the angel that stood in the road to resist Balaam as he set out with the objective of cursing the Israelites. (Num 22:22, 32)
In other instances it refers to individuals as resisters of other men. (1Sam 29:4; 2Sam 19:21, 22; 1Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25) But it is used with the definite article ha to refer to Satan the Devil ("Devil" meaning slanderer), the chief Adversary of God. (Job 1:6; 2:1-7; Zec 3:1, 2) In the Greek Scriptures, commonly called the New Testament, the word sa·ta·nas´ applies to Satan the Devil in nearly all of its occurrences and is usually accompanied by the definite article ho.
The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. The name he had before this is not given. God is the only Creator, and ‘his activity is perfect,’ with no injustice or unrighteousness. (Deut 32:4) Therefore, the one becoming Satan was, when created, a perfect, righteous creature of God. He is a spirit person, for he appeared in heaven in the presence of God. (Job chaps 1, 2; Rev 12:9)
Jesus Christ said of him: “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” (John 8:44; 1John 3:8) Jesus here shows that Satan was once in the truth, but forsook it. Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, for he thereby brought about the death of Adam and Eve, which, in turn, brought sin and death to their offspring. (Rom 5:12) Throughout the Scriptures the qualities and actions attributed to him could be attributed only to a person, not to an abstract principle of evil. It is clear that the Jews, and Jesus and his disciples, knew that Satan existed as a person.
So, from a righteous, perfect start, this spirit person deviated into sin and degradation. The process bringing this about is described by James when he writes: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (James 1:14, 15) In the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-19.
The Scriptural account, therefore, makes it plain that it was Satan who spoke through the medium of a serpent, seducing Eve into disobedience to God’s command. In turn, Eve induced Adam to take the same rebellious course. (Gen 3:1-7; 2Cor 11:3) As a consequence of Satan’s use of the serpent, the Bible gives Satan the title “Serpent,” which came to signify “deceiver”; he also became “the Tempter” (Matt 4:3) and a liar, “the father of the lie.”(John 8:44; Rev 12:9)
Up until Satan and his demon's ouster when Jesus becoming king of God's kingdom in 1914, they had free access to heaven and even the presence of God.(Job 1 & 2) When his disciples returned from having cast out demons, Jesus said: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven."(Luke 10:18) However, Revelation 12:9 says following Jesus enthronement in 1914 and a subsequent war between Michael ( Jesus heavenly name, meaning "Who is Like God") and Satan, that "So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."
Hence, Satan and his demons no longer have access to the heavenly realm, but are restricted to the earth, having "fallen like lightning from heaven". As a result, Revelation 12:12 says: "On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
We are living deep into the "last days" or "time of the end", and therefore Satan has greater anger than ever before, for he realizes that he a very "short period of time" to continue seducing the "world" (1 John 5:19) and to try to ' swallow ' up the "woman's seed", those who are faithful anointed Christians that are observing "the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus."(Rev 12:17)
In other instances it refers to individuals as resisters of other men. (1Sam 29:4; 2Sam 19:21, 22; 1Kings 5:4; 11:14, 23, 25) But it is used with the definite article ha to refer to Satan the Devil ("Devil" meaning slanderer), the chief Adversary of God. (Job 1:6; 2:1-7; Zec 3:1, 2) In the Greek Scriptures, commonly called the New Testament, the word sa·ta·nas´ applies to Satan the Devil in nearly all of its occurrences and is usually accompanied by the definite article ho.
The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. The name he had before this is not given. God is the only Creator, and ‘his activity is perfect,’ with no injustice or unrighteousness. (Deut 32:4) Therefore, the one becoming Satan was, when created, a perfect, righteous creature of God. He is a spirit person, for he appeared in heaven in the presence of God. (Job chaps 1, 2; Rev 12:9)
Jesus Christ said of him: “That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” (John 8:44; 1John 3:8) Jesus here shows that Satan was once in the truth, but forsook it. Beginning with his first overt act in turning Adam and Eve away from God, he was a manslayer, for he thereby brought about the death of Adam and Eve, which, in turn, brought sin and death to their offspring. (Rom 5:12) Throughout the Scriptures the qualities and actions attributed to him could be attributed only to a person, not to an abstract principle of evil. It is clear that the Jews, and Jesus and his disciples, knew that Satan existed as a person.
So, from a righteous, perfect start, this spirit person deviated into sin and degradation. The process bringing this about is described by James when he writes: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (James 1:14, 15) In the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-19.
The Scriptural account, therefore, makes it plain that it was Satan who spoke through the medium of a serpent, seducing Eve into disobedience to God’s command. In turn, Eve induced Adam to take the same rebellious course. (Gen 3:1-7; 2Cor 11:3) As a consequence of Satan’s use of the serpent, the Bible gives Satan the title “Serpent,” which came to signify “deceiver”; he also became “the Tempter” (Matt 4:3) and a liar, “the father of the lie.”(John 8:44; Rev 12:9)
Up until Satan and his demon's ouster when Jesus becoming king of God's kingdom in 1914, they had free access to heaven and even the presence of God.(Job 1 & 2) When his disciples returned from having cast out demons, Jesus said: "I began to behold Satan already fallen like lightning from heaven."(Luke 10:18) However, Revelation 12:9 says following Jesus enthronement in 1914 and a subsequent war between Michael ( Jesus heavenly name, meaning "Who is Like God") and Satan, that "So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him."
Hence, Satan and his demons no longer have access to the heavenly realm, but are restricted to the earth, having "fallen like lightning from heaven". As a result, Revelation 12:12 says: "On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
We are living deep into the "last days" or "time of the end", and therefore Satan has greater anger than ever before, for he realizes that he a very "short period of time" to continue seducing the "world" (1 John 5:19) and to try to ' swallow ' up the "woman's seed", those who are faithful anointed Christians that are observing "the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus."(Rev 12:17)
Satan hasn't been "cast down" to Earth yet. When he is there will be no doubt.
Revelation 12:12 (NKJV)
[sup]12 [/sup]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
Matthew 24:21-22 (NKJV)
[sup]21 [/sup]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [sup]22 [/sup]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Revelation 12:12 (NKJV)
[sup]12 [/sup]Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."
Matthew 24:21-22 (NKJV)
[sup]21 [/sup]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [sup]22 [/sup]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Alethos
New Member
Correct - You can have a good satan!
Correct - You can have a good satan speaking of humans standing in the way of others for thier benefit.
The good old jump to the New Testament and off on some unscriptural tangent! :blink: :wacko:
Moving further away from truth now. Notice those reading how ONLY Job 1 & Rev 12 is cited to support the fantastical demonic being that apparently rules in some unknown place of darkness.
You cannot prove the satan and devil from the Old Testament because the greek meaning is missunderstood in the New!
Read John 8 again and expound how this is speaking to a supernatural fallen angel! Show me in the beginning exactly where your satan is mentioned? I am staggered a person of your intellect can swallow such falsehood - everything above is totally inferred without scriptural support.
Theres only confusing here people. "there seems to be," in other words I dont know how to reconcile these passages.
Prove the satan spoke through the serpent?
Its an animal which spoke, how can you even suggest such a leap of unfounded belief in your above statement?
You started out with truth.
You ended up with lies.
If only you applied your initial understanding to those other scriptures, before wresting them away you could better understand the Bible, and its message.
For those who are reading this you can take a very sound observation from the above, The beginning of Gods Book the satan and devil are absolutely silent...cannot be found! As we travel through the book we get to Job, where, what do you know the supernatural being appears out of nowhere! Then we move further through its pages towards the Revelation and yes that’s where satan and the devil present themselves.
So let’s quote Revelation a highly symbolic book and add some real colourful language like "We are living deep into the "last days" or "time of the end", and therefore Satan has greater anger than ever before, for he realizes that he a very "short period of time" to continue seducing the "world"
Oh so satan is angry? Is this the only time he is angry? At the end of the book? He is not angry in Job? There he is having a very peaceful conversation with God almost like they are friends.
Alethos
ps You would be better to speak to a single verse, which you believe supports the supernatural devil rather than inferring a belief over the whole writ. Here you are trying to force and understanding into the Word rather than allowing the Word to teach.
Alethos
New Member
How to better understand Heb 2:14 & 1 John 3:8
The words 'satan' and 'devil' are used figuratively to describe the natural sinful tendencies within us. These are our main 'satan' or adversary. They are also personified, and as such they can be spoken of as 'the devil'- our enemy, a slanderer of the truth. This is what our natural 'man' is like the very devil. The connection between the devil and our evil desires - sin within us - is made explicit in several passages: "As the children (ourselves) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through (his) death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb.2:14).
The devil is here described as being responsible for death. But "the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23). Therefore sin and the devil must be parallel. Similarly James 1:14 says that our evil desires tempt us, leading us to sin and therefore to death; but Hebrews 2:14 says that the devil brings death. The same verse says that Jesus had our nature in order to destroy the devil. Contrast this with Rom.8:3: "God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (that is, in our human nature) condemned sin in the flesh". This shows that the devil and the sinful tendencies that are naturally within human nature are effectively the same. It is vitally important to understand that Jesus was tempted just like us. Misunderstanding the doctrine of the devil means that we cannot correctly appreciate the nature and work of Jesus. It was only because Jesus had our human nature - the 'devil' within him - that we can have the hope of salvation (Heb.2:14-18; Heb 4:15). By overcoming the desires of his own nature, the Biblical devil, Jesus was able to destroy the devil on the cross (Heb.2:14). If the devil is a personal being, then he should no longer exist. Heb.9:26 says that Christ was manifested "to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself". Heb.2:14 matches this with the statement that through his death Christ destroyed the devil in himself. By His death Jesus in prospect destroyed "the body of sin" (Rom.6:6), i.e. human nature, sin revealed in (the form of) our very bodies.
"He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 Jn.3:8), because sin is the result of giving way to our own natural, evil desires (James 1:14,15), which the Bible calls 'the devil'. "For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil" (1 Jn.3:8). If we are correct in saying that the devil is our evil desires, then the works of our evil desires, i.e. what they result in, are our sins. This is confirmed by 1 Jn.3:5: "He (Jesus) was manifested to take away our sins". This confirms that "our sins" and "the works of the devil" are the same. Acts 5:3 provides another example of this connection between the devil and our sins. Peter says to Ananias: "Why hath Satan filled thine heart?" Then in verse 4 Peter says "Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?" Conceiving something bad within our heart is the same as Satan filling our heart. If we ourselves conceive something, e.g. a sinful plan, then it begins inside us. If a woman conceives a child, it doesn't exist outside of her; it begins inside her. James 1:14,15 use the same figure in describing how our lusts conceive and bring forth sin, which brings forth death. Ps.109:6 parallels a sinful person with a 'satan': "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand", i.e. in power over him (cp. Ps.110:1).
Alethos
The words 'satan' and 'devil' are used figuratively to describe the natural sinful tendencies within us. These are our main 'satan' or adversary. They are also personified, and as such they can be spoken of as 'the devil'- our enemy, a slanderer of the truth. This is what our natural 'man' is like the very devil. The connection between the devil and our evil desires - sin within us - is made explicit in several passages: "As the children (ourselves) are partakers of flesh and blood, he (Jesus) also himself likewise took part of the same; that through (his) death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil" (Heb.2:14).
The devil is here described as being responsible for death. But "the wages of sin is death" (Rom.6:23). Therefore sin and the devil must be parallel. Similarly James 1:14 says that our evil desires tempt us, leading us to sin and therefore to death; but Hebrews 2:14 says that the devil brings death. The same verse says that Jesus had our nature in order to destroy the devil. Contrast this with Rom.8:3: "God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh (that is, in our human nature) condemned sin in the flesh". This shows that the devil and the sinful tendencies that are naturally within human nature are effectively the same. It is vitally important to understand that Jesus was tempted just like us. Misunderstanding the doctrine of the devil means that we cannot correctly appreciate the nature and work of Jesus. It was only because Jesus had our human nature - the 'devil' within him - that we can have the hope of salvation (Heb.2:14-18; Heb 4:15). By overcoming the desires of his own nature, the Biblical devil, Jesus was able to destroy the devil on the cross (Heb.2:14). If the devil is a personal being, then he should no longer exist. Heb.9:26 says that Christ was manifested "to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself". Heb.2:14 matches this with the statement that through his death Christ destroyed the devil in himself. By His death Jesus in prospect destroyed "the body of sin" (Rom.6:6), i.e. human nature, sin revealed in (the form of) our very bodies.
"He that committeth sin is of the devil" (1 Jn.3:8), because sin is the result of giving way to our own natural, evil desires (James 1:14,15), which the Bible calls 'the devil'. "For this purpose the son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil" (1 Jn.3:8). If we are correct in saying that the devil is our evil desires, then the works of our evil desires, i.e. what they result in, are our sins. This is confirmed by 1 Jn.3:5: "He (Jesus) was manifested to take away our sins". This confirms that "our sins" and "the works of the devil" are the same. Acts 5:3 provides another example of this connection between the devil and our sins. Peter says to Ananias: "Why hath Satan filled thine heart?" Then in verse 4 Peter says "Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?" Conceiving something bad within our heart is the same as Satan filling our heart. If we ourselves conceive something, e.g. a sinful plan, then it begins inside us. If a woman conceives a child, it doesn't exist outside of her; it begins inside her. James 1:14,15 use the same figure in describing how our lusts conceive and bring forth sin, which brings forth death. Ps.109:6 parallels a sinful person with a 'satan': "Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand", i.e. in power over him (cp. Ps.110:1).
Alethos
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Jesus speaking...
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
So am I right in saying you believe we can over seek, over knock? Are you implying Jesus had limitations to his seeking of the Father? or are you implying the quality of the questions being asked. Maybe you are saying that every question I have asked is meaningless? Others have found them to provoke thought and opened the Word of God to give further light.
Of course not. Mat 7:7 is clearly talking about seeking after God - not asking 100s of questions on a message board. You appear to be confusing people's opinions about God with going straight to God in prayer.
If you are not able to answer a question, one must exercise honesty, which I have seen with Joshua on numerous occasions. And if you imply many do not know the answers then we must ask why? Are "all" the questions meaningless? Surely not!
So far, I have not seen anyone one this thread willfully lie - have you? Seems to me that people are being genuine in their understanding of the scriptures. I am not implying anything - I am stating clearly that there may not be the developed doctrine available in the Bible that will provide you with answers that satisfy your curiosity. Also, like I said before, reason has it's limits. The Bible never claims to be the complete word of God.
Here is an example:
Let's say an atheist started questioning the doctrine of the Incarnation. He could easily ask enough questions to reach the end of reason and conclude that the doctrine was just silly. Yet in reality, his questions have simply reduced the doctrine so far down that he has missed the essence. Based on reason alone a person could disprove any truth. He is a man grasping at sand.
You mentioned you read through the thread and yet in your overview you chose not address one of questions concerning satan and devil but rather take some broad macro view and question the validity of my thoughts? Aspen, why not take me to the Word of God and declare an understanding of the Devil & Satan?
Is there a problem with that? I am basically following your lead - if you are not barraging people with questions, you are critiquing their posts. You claim that no one wants to learn anything from you, but I am also wondering if you are interested in learning from the people answering your posts? You speak highly of Joshua - apparently he is the only person who has met your standards - what have you learned from him about the scriptures that doesn't simply validate your own ideas?
If you ask me to Prove God is righteous I could provide 100 quotes and I am sure you could also, but when it comes to this topic all we get is theological phrases but nothing with any sound scriptural backing.
Like I said in my previous post.....the doctrines concerning Lucifer, Satan, The Devil are not fully developed in the Bible. You wanted honesty - I am trying to give you the straight scoop, even though you do not seem to want to hear it. Truth can exist without being complete. If I searched for all there is to know about Mark Twain's writing style, social commentary, and religious beliefs in his classic "Tom Sawyer", I would find some answers, but they would be far from complete because not only is Tom Sawyer a mere sampling of his work, it was written early in his career. The NT was written at the beginning of Christian thought, therefore how do you expect to find developed ideas in the same depth as you can find them 500, 1000, 2000 years later?
I am confused. How does the above increase our understanding of the satan and devil? God being outside our timeline doesn’t exempt us from understanding prophecy, Jesus Christ, angels, God nor the true nature of the devil.
I was commenting on your questioning surrounding the timeline of Lucifer failing from heaven, the timing of the angels in chains, and their judgment; my only point is that placing a timeline on Heavenly events is futile and pointing out how illogical the events are based on a human concept of time is useless for promoting understanding. Basically, it is like an atheist demanding to see God and then concluding that God obviously doesn't exist because He doesn't fit into the atheist's narrow, materialistic view of reality.
Take for instance your comment "the fall of Lucifer" its like a throw away comment that you say without question. And yet where is the evidence? Where is the scripture that proves your belief? Prove "all" things?
None of my comments are "throw away" comments. I spent a lot of time thinking about what I want to write in my posts and I work hard at being clear and concise. As far as providing evidence for the Fall of Lucifer - there is no evidence. There is no evidence for a lot of truths in the Bible. In fact, in I were an atheist, I would dismiss it outright as a fairytale - no matter how many verses were provided. BTW, where did you get the idea that we are supposed to "prove all things"? Sounds like a bastardization of 1 Peter 3:15, which makes me really understand how the blind man felt who was being harassed by accusations masquerading as questions:
John 9:27
He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”
Here is another example in your comment "the role of satan in creation" but where are the scriptures?
Why would there be a scripture for a category of Christian thought? There are also no verses for "Christian living in the 21st century", but we do need to think about it.
the chapters and verses that outline his role?
You mean the reference system for the Bible that was added in the Middle Ages? There were no verse numbers or chapters in the Bible when it was written.
How have you come to this understanding?
I am a Christian and I have thought about the impact of evil on our world, the role of the Devil, and many other categories of Christian thought for a long time. I have also read the Bible, and commentaries on the Bible, learned from my church leaders and have chosen to view the OT from a Christian point of view rather than a Jewish point of view. Of course, your question doesn't really apply to my statement "the role of Satan in creation" because it is merely a category of Christian thought - not a truth or even a doctrine.
Have you study the scriptures to find this creature?
Yes.
What scriptures did you use to form a basis of your belief?
Here is an interesting question - this question requires me to either remember all the verses I have ever read about L/S/D or go to Biblegateway and look up all the verses. Now I used to think that doing all the work of looking up the verses and presenting them in context and offering an explanation would bring enlightenment for both of us - we could learn together! I would tell myself! But, I've been doing this far too long. The result of my hard work would produce accusations and alternate explanations. Prooftexting! Out of context! No commentary!! Too much commentary!! Do you even know what your talking about !! This verse clearly states the opposite of what you are claiming it is saying!! Yeah....I'll pass, thanks
How do I know you will dismiss my scriptures / explanations? You already dismissed my three observations.
I am not going to insult your spiritual integrity to say its blind belief, or that you have heeded an expert?
Is this a question? I see a question mark? Perhaps a misfire?
But surely you have considered and reconsider such an important doctrine as a supernatural being?
Actually, to be honest, Satan is more of a sideshow at the carnival for me. Although, I thought about him enough to form an educated opinion; he is now an afterthought, at best.
Heb 2:14 & 1 John 3:8 after 150 posts these simple quotations still go unanswered.
How did Jesus destroy the devil through his death?
He removed the curse of spiritual death.
What is the source of the works of the devil?
Misuse of Creation.
How did Jesus destroy the works of the devil?
He died in our place and experienced Hell - spiritual death.
If these questions could be phrased with greater intelligence, I am happy for you to change them?
This is another statement that is not a question, but has a question mark. No wonder you believe no one is able to answer all your questions.
Like I said I am a simple man, uneducated, but the scriptures are able to make the simple wise unto salvation.
They ought not to be complicated.
The simple part is the only thing about the scriptures that really matters, the requirements for redemption - justification and sanctification of the heart - loving God and your neighbor.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
So am I right in saying you believe we can over seek, over knock? Are you implying Jesus had limitations to his seeking of the Father? or are you implying the quality of the questions being asked. Maybe you are saying that every question I have asked is meaningless? Others have found them to provoke thought and opened the Word of God to give further light.
Of course not. Mat 7:7 is clearly talking about seeking after God - not asking 100s of questions on a message board. You appear to be confusing people's opinions about God with going straight to God in prayer.
If you are not able to answer a question, one must exercise honesty, which I have seen with Joshua on numerous occasions. And if you imply many do not know the answers then we must ask why? Are "all" the questions meaningless? Surely not!
So far, I have not seen anyone one this thread willfully lie - have you? Seems to me that people are being genuine in their understanding of the scriptures. I am not implying anything - I am stating clearly that there may not be the developed doctrine available in the Bible that will provide you with answers that satisfy your curiosity. Also, like I said before, reason has it's limits. The Bible never claims to be the complete word of God.
Here is an example:
Let's say an atheist started questioning the doctrine of the Incarnation. He could easily ask enough questions to reach the end of reason and conclude that the doctrine was just silly. Yet in reality, his questions have simply reduced the doctrine so far down that he has missed the essence. Based on reason alone a person could disprove any truth. He is a man grasping at sand.
You mentioned you read through the thread and yet in your overview you chose not address one of questions concerning satan and devil but rather take some broad macro view and question the validity of my thoughts? Aspen, why not take me to the Word of God and declare an understanding of the Devil & Satan?
Is there a problem with that? I am basically following your lead - if you are not barraging people with questions, you are critiquing their posts. You claim that no one wants to learn anything from you, but I am also wondering if you are interested in learning from the people answering your posts? You speak highly of Joshua - apparently he is the only person who has met your standards - what have you learned from him about the scriptures that doesn't simply validate your own ideas?
If you ask me to Prove God is righteous I could provide 100 quotes and I am sure you could also, but when it comes to this topic all we get is theological phrases but nothing with any sound scriptural backing.
Like I said in my previous post.....the doctrines concerning Lucifer, Satan, The Devil are not fully developed in the Bible. You wanted honesty - I am trying to give you the straight scoop, even though you do not seem to want to hear it. Truth can exist without being complete. If I searched for all there is to know about Mark Twain's writing style, social commentary, and religious beliefs in his classic "Tom Sawyer", I would find some answers, but they would be far from complete because not only is Tom Sawyer a mere sampling of his work, it was written early in his career. The NT was written at the beginning of Christian thought, therefore how do you expect to find developed ideas in the same depth as you can find them 500, 1000, 2000 years later?
I am confused. How does the above increase our understanding of the satan and devil? God being outside our timeline doesn’t exempt us from understanding prophecy, Jesus Christ, angels, God nor the true nature of the devil.
I was commenting on your questioning surrounding the timeline of Lucifer failing from heaven, the timing of the angels in chains, and their judgment; my only point is that placing a timeline on Heavenly events is futile and pointing out how illogical the events are based on a human concept of time is useless for promoting understanding. Basically, it is like an atheist demanding to see God and then concluding that God obviously doesn't exist because He doesn't fit into the atheist's narrow, materialistic view of reality.
Take for instance your comment "the fall of Lucifer" its like a throw away comment that you say without question. And yet where is the evidence? Where is the scripture that proves your belief? Prove "all" things?
None of my comments are "throw away" comments. I spent a lot of time thinking about what I want to write in my posts and I work hard at being clear and concise. As far as providing evidence for the Fall of Lucifer - there is no evidence. There is no evidence for a lot of truths in the Bible. In fact, in I were an atheist, I would dismiss it outright as a fairytale - no matter how many verses were provided. BTW, where did you get the idea that we are supposed to "prove all things"? Sounds like a bastardization of 1 Peter 3:15, which makes me really understand how the blind man felt who was being harassed by accusations masquerading as questions:
John 9:27
He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”
Here is another example in your comment "the role of satan in creation" but where are the scriptures?
Why would there be a scripture for a category of Christian thought? There are also no verses for "Christian living in the 21st century", but we do need to think about it.
the chapters and verses that outline his role?
You mean the reference system for the Bible that was added in the Middle Ages? There were no verse numbers or chapters in the Bible when it was written.
How have you come to this understanding?
I am a Christian and I have thought about the impact of evil on our world, the role of the Devil, and many other categories of Christian thought for a long time. I have also read the Bible, and commentaries on the Bible, learned from my church leaders and have chosen to view the OT from a Christian point of view rather than a Jewish point of view. Of course, your question doesn't really apply to my statement "the role of Satan in creation" because it is merely a category of Christian thought - not a truth or even a doctrine.
Have you study the scriptures to find this creature?
Yes.
What scriptures did you use to form a basis of your belief?
Here is an interesting question - this question requires me to either remember all the verses I have ever read about L/S/D or go to Biblegateway and look up all the verses. Now I used to think that doing all the work of looking up the verses and presenting them in context and offering an explanation would bring enlightenment for both of us - we could learn together! I would tell myself! But, I've been doing this far too long. The result of my hard work would produce accusations and alternate explanations. Prooftexting! Out of context! No commentary!! Too much commentary!! Do you even know what your talking about !! This verse clearly states the opposite of what you are claiming it is saying!! Yeah....I'll pass, thanks
How do I know you will dismiss my scriptures / explanations? You already dismissed my three observations.
I am not going to insult your spiritual integrity to say its blind belief, or that you have heeded an expert?
Is this a question? I see a question mark? Perhaps a misfire?
But surely you have considered and reconsider such an important doctrine as a supernatural being?
Actually, to be honest, Satan is more of a sideshow at the carnival for me. Although, I thought about him enough to form an educated opinion; he is now an afterthought, at best.
Heb 2:14 & 1 John 3:8 after 150 posts these simple quotations still go unanswered.
How did Jesus destroy the devil through his death?
He removed the curse of spiritual death.
What is the source of the works of the devil?
Misuse of Creation.
How did Jesus destroy the works of the devil?
He died in our place and experienced Hell - spiritual death.
If these questions could be phrased with greater intelligence, I am happy for you to change them?
This is another statement that is not a question, but has a question mark. No wonder you believe no one is able to answer all your questions.
Like I said I am a simple man, uneducated, but the scriptures are able to make the simple wise unto salvation.
They ought not to be complicated.
The simple part is the only thing about the scriptures that really matters, the requirements for redemption - justification and sanctification of the heart - loving God and your neighbor.
WhiteKnuckle
New Member
- Mar 29, 2009
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Hmmmmmm.
I'm not entirely sure that I'm understanding this conversation correctly. That said,,
Here's some questions.
If fallen angels are locked away, that means there's no demons. If Satan was a fallen angel, that means he's locked away as well.
So, How is it we're in a spiritual battle? With who? If Satan was locked away,, WHO was it that tempted Jesus in the wilderness? If all fallen angels are locked up, how are/were there possessions?
Now, admittedly, Satan and his angels are rendered powerless to all those who are in Christ.
I'm not entirely sure that I'm understanding this conversation correctly. That said,,
Here's some questions.
If fallen angels are locked away, that means there's no demons. If Satan was a fallen angel, that means he's locked away as well.
So, How is it we're in a spiritual battle? With who? If Satan was locked away,, WHO was it that tempted Jesus in the wilderness? If all fallen angels are locked up, how are/were there possessions?
Now, admittedly, Satan and his angels are rendered powerless to all those who are in Christ.
Alethos
New Member
Aspen you are one of two people including Joshua to endeavour to interpret Heb 2:14 & 1 John 3:8.
It presents a real problem for devil believers because it implies their supernatural monster is dead. Bacause that which had the power of death...is now dead!
Thank you.
I was interested in how you would get around the devil being dead to Jesus Christ.
So you don’t believe through the work of Jesus, God removed the "physical" death in him? Being raised and changed? You believe these verses are only spiritual?
Sorry I cant come at that understanding.
That which "had" the power of death. Death is a physical occurrence for all mankind, it was for Jesus as it will be for you and I. SIN (not a supernatural being) was "done away" within his body. The Wages of sin results in a physical death; its the divine law...if you sin, whether human of angel :wacko: you must die!
This truth cannot be avoided and its extremely clear...if you sin you die!
So the real victory over the devil occurred inside of the body of Jesus Heb 2:14 which is where the source of evil (devil) is found.
And somehow the devil power was removed exactly at the time of Jesus' death?
The question is how?
If the devil was an external creature, this verse would present an external means by which he destroyed the devil, however its not the case - the power of the devil was within Jesus, that is his flesh.
Yes? It was his flesh whcih was cruxified!
I can see you are spiritualising Hebrews 2:14 & 1 John 3:8 but one cannot disagree that Jesus lived a physical life and was flesh and blood like you and I. The scriptures go to some lengths to make that plainly clear. That through his physical death on the cross the devil and its works were destroyed!!!
In fact the purpose God is to send his son into the world, to die upon the cross and destroy the false accuser, the slandered, the evil one, the devil and satan.
Heb 2:14 & 1 John 3:8 agree with this understanding.
So the physical/spiritual death of the devil (sin in the flesh) must have taken away because the grave could not hold Jesus, because no sin (works of the devil) was found in his mouth. Therefore his Father raised him to Glory.
Alethos
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Aspen you are one of two people including Joshua to endeavour to interpret Heb 2:14 & 1 John 3:8.
It presents a real problem for devil believers because it implies their supernatural monster is dead. Bacause that which had the power of death...is now dead!
Thank you.
So what does death mean? In a Christian context, rather than annihilation, death means separation from God. The serpent told A&E a half-truth, "surely, you will not die!" And he was right, in the sense of annihilation. Yet, they were spiritually dead in terms of separation from God - the angel was guarding the Tree of Life. When A&E were expelled from the Garden, their spiritual death manifested in a physical aging....leading to a physical death.
Lucifer experienced the same thing - and I reject your understanding of Christ's statement about seeing Lucifer falling like lightening. Even secular scholars like Elaine Pegals and Bernard McGinn explain that Christ (of course they believe it was added by later writers to bolster Christians claim that Christ is divine) was referring directly to Isaiah and speaking as an eye witness. Lucifer's spiritual death began when he fell out of God's presence. He was allowed to roam freely on the Earth, just like A&E, until his death (separation from God) culminated with Jesus's death and Resurrection. The Devil is now separated for good from God and His people. There is no going back for him - he is, for all practical purposes, in Hell. But, is Hell physical? No. It is a spiritual condition - death. He is still present, but harmless. His angels are in the same condition - they are chained, yet still present because they are all eternal beings. We have the choice to recognize them or not. In the end they, along with the unredeemed will be vanquished completely in a place called the Lake of Fire, but they will still continue on, in a state of physical and spiritual death, but they will no longer be recognized by the redeemed at all.
This is where my time issue comes in. The Devil, which according to the Early Church manifested himself as the serpent in the Garden, is simultaneously falling from Heaven, tempting A&E, and sitting in the Lake of Fire, right now. There is no time - creation/reality is like a book - it is static. We are here right now, being born and kneeling at the Judgment, right now.
I was interested in how you would get around the devil being dead to Jesus Christ.
So you don’t believe through the work of Jesus, God removed the "physical" death in him? Being raised and changed? You believe these verses are only spiritual?
Sorry I cant come at that understanding.
I believe Lucifer started his trajectory away from God when he fell to Earth; as he moved farther away, he changed...as a result of dying, he became the Devil. Based on where we are - our viewpoint in the book called creation/reality, the Devil has experienced a complete death.
That which "had" the power of death. Death is a physical occurrence for all mankind, it was for Jesus as it will be for you and I. SIN (not a supernatural being) was "done away" within his body. The Wages of sin results in a physical death; its the divine law...if you sin, whether human of angel :wacko: you must die!
Yep - separation from God
So the real victory over the devil occurred inside of the body of Jesus Heb 2:14 which is where the source of evil (devil) is found.
And somehow the devil power was removed exactly at the time of Jesus' death?
The question is how?
This is all irrelevant based on my former comments
It presents a real problem for devil believers because it implies their supernatural monster is dead. Bacause that which had the power of death...is now dead!
Thank you.
So what does death mean? In a Christian context, rather than annihilation, death means separation from God. The serpent told A&E a half-truth, "surely, you will not die!" And he was right, in the sense of annihilation. Yet, they were spiritually dead in terms of separation from God - the angel was guarding the Tree of Life. When A&E were expelled from the Garden, their spiritual death manifested in a physical aging....leading to a physical death.
Lucifer experienced the same thing - and I reject your understanding of Christ's statement about seeing Lucifer falling like lightening. Even secular scholars like Elaine Pegals and Bernard McGinn explain that Christ (of course they believe it was added by later writers to bolster Christians claim that Christ is divine) was referring directly to Isaiah and speaking as an eye witness. Lucifer's spiritual death began when he fell out of God's presence. He was allowed to roam freely on the Earth, just like A&E, until his death (separation from God) culminated with Jesus's death and Resurrection. The Devil is now separated for good from God and His people. There is no going back for him - he is, for all practical purposes, in Hell. But, is Hell physical? No. It is a spiritual condition - death. He is still present, but harmless. His angels are in the same condition - they are chained, yet still present because they are all eternal beings. We have the choice to recognize them or not. In the end they, along with the unredeemed will be vanquished completely in a place called the Lake of Fire, but they will still continue on, in a state of physical and spiritual death, but they will no longer be recognized by the redeemed at all.
This is where my time issue comes in. The Devil, which according to the Early Church manifested himself as the serpent in the Garden, is simultaneously falling from Heaven, tempting A&E, and sitting in the Lake of Fire, right now. There is no time - creation/reality is like a book - it is static. We are here right now, being born and kneeling at the Judgment, right now.
I was interested in how you would get around the devil being dead to Jesus Christ.
So you don’t believe through the work of Jesus, God removed the "physical" death in him? Being raised and changed? You believe these verses are only spiritual?
Sorry I cant come at that understanding.
I believe Lucifer started his trajectory away from God when he fell to Earth; as he moved farther away, he changed...as a result of dying, he became the Devil. Based on where we are - our viewpoint in the book called creation/reality, the Devil has experienced a complete death.
That which "had" the power of death. Death is a physical occurrence for all mankind, it was for Jesus as it will be for you and I. SIN (not a supernatural being) was "done away" within his body. The Wages of sin results in a physical death; its the divine law...if you sin, whether human of angel :wacko: you must die!
Yep - separation from God
So the real victory over the devil occurred inside of the body of Jesus Heb 2:14 which is where the source of evil (devil) is found.
And somehow the devil power was removed exactly at the time of Jesus' death?
The question is how?
This is all irrelevant based on my former comments
Alethos
New Member
Wise questions WhiteKnuckle.
Heb 2:14 1 John 3:8 2 Peter 2:4 do nothing for a belief in a devil roaring around devouring at will. Too many scriptures tells us the devil is dead, chained, restrained.
From these above mentioned verses one can ask the question "So, How is it we're in a spiritual battle? With who?"
These, and many other verse can only be interpreted correctly if you understand the work of Jesus Christ.
For this reason I will follow post an article I wrote some months back.
Its only in the LJC the answer can be found.
And Aspen and others are yet to look there.
Alethos
Why is the flesh rendered powerless to those "in" Christ? Answer: Heb 2:14.
Alethos
New Member
The victory of Jesus
- He was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Heb. 4:15).
- He "knew no sin". "In him is no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 John 3:5).
- "Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth" (1 Peter 2:22).
- "Holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners" (Heb. 7:26).
So he could question his enemies "Which of you convinces me of sin?" (John 8:46). To this there was no reply.
Due to his perfect character, Jesus was the manifestation of God in flesh (1Tim. 3:16); He acted and spoke as God would have done had He been a man. He was therefore the perfect reflection of God - "the image of the invisible God" (Col. 1:15). Because of this, there is no need for mortal men to physically see God. As Jesus explained, "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us (physically) the Father?" (John 14:9).
Because he had our nature, Christ had to die. He was a descendant of Adam through Mary, and all of Adam's children have to die (1 Cor. 15:22). All Adam's descendants had to die because of his sin, regardless of their personal righteousness: "Death reigned...through the offence of one (Adam) many be dead...the judgment was (on account of) one (Adam) to condemnation (to death)...by one man's disobedience many were made sinners", and therefore had to die (Rom 5:14-19 cp. 6:23). As a descendant of Adam, Christ was 'made' a 'sinner' and therefore had to die, as all Adam's descendants were classified as sinners worthy of death due to his sin. God did not change this principle, He let it affect Christ too. God "made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin" (2 Cor. 5:21).
Apart from Jesus, all of Adam's descendants deserve this punishment, for we have all sinned personally. Jesus had to die because he was of our nature, sharing in the curse which came upon Adam's descendants. Yet, because he personally had done nothing worthy of death "God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him" (Acts 2:24 ). Christ was "declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead" (Rom. 1:4). Thus it was due to Christ's perfect character, his "spirit of holiness", that he was gloriously resurrected.
Christ did not die on the cross only because he was of human nature. He willingly gave his perfect life as a gift to us; he showed his love for us by dying "for our sins" (1 Cor. 15:3), knowing that through his death he would gain us eventual salvation from sin and death (Eph. 5:2,25; Rev. 1:5; Gal. 2:20). Because Jesus was perfect in character he was able to overcome the result of sin by being the first person to rise from the dead and be given immortal life. All those who identify themselves with Christ through baptism and a Christ-like way of life therefore have hope of a similar resurrection and reward.
In Hebrews 2:14 & 1 John 3:8 speak his purpose – to destroy that which had the power to put him to a permanent everlasting death.
How does Jesus represent us today having fulfilled Heb 2:14 & 1 John 3:8?
Jesus was representative of us, being in all points "made like unto his brethren" (Heb. 2:17). "He tasted death for every man" (Heb. 2:9). When we commit a sin - e.g. we are angry - God can forgive us "for Christ's sake" (Eph. 4:32). This is because God can compare us with Christ, a man like us who was tempted to sin - e.g. to be angry - but who overcame every temptation. Therefore God can forgive us our sin - of anger - on account of our being “in” Christ, covered by his righteousness. Christ being our representative is therefore the means by which God can show us His grace, whilst upholding His own righteous principles.
We did not receive our reward at the time Christ died. Christ's death destroyed the devil (Heb. 2:14) rather than the devil destroying him.
It was in his death whereby he himself was saved. Are we not told that God "brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd...through the blood of the everlasting covenant" (Heb.13:20), i.e. his own blood.
He was both shepherd and slaughtered sheep, in that he led himself to slaughter, and through his blood God raised him; in the same way that he was both offering and priest.
Looking into the death of Christ reveals much about the devil and how it was overcome.
Alethos
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
First what is the LJC?
Second - if this is true then our conversation is over because you have finally been honest enough to state that you are the only person here with the correct understanding of the devil and everyone else who disagrees with your interpretation is wrong. Based on this idea, it is impossible for us to learn from each other - you are here to convert people to your POV - period. It is too bad I wasted so much time trying to have a discussion with you.
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