Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

[Alethos]

Which translation are you quoting from?[/size] It's clear that you are denying the eternal fire. Do you also deny Jesus/God?


Scripture gives plenty of info about Satan.

Revelation 20:2 (NKJV)
[sup]2 [/sup]He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Ducky

I am yet to see you provide a single understanding in this forum.

Clearly you do not know the Greek word for hell fire.
Clearly you have no understanding of what hell fire means.
Clearly after spending numerous hours of study, and posting many articles, maybe over 50 questions all you can do is quote Rev 20:2 and feel satisfied within yourself, that you have explain away truth.

I will get to Rev 20:2 but not with you Ducky...your ears are well in truly closed.

Alethos

ps. Consider how you have contributed to this forum by way of justifying your false belief?

 

[Alethos]

Hell​

The popular concept of hell here is of a place of punishment for wicked 'immortal souls' straight after death, or the place of torment for those who are rejected at the judgment.

The Hebrew word for hell is 'sheol' and means 'a covered place'.

There are many examples where the original word 'sheol' is translated 'grave'. Today in 2011 many modern Bible versions rarely use the word 'hell' translating it more properly as 'grave'.

I have outlined a few examples of where this word 'sheol' is translated 'grave' which should correct the popular notion of hell as a place of fire and torment for the wicked:

"Let the wicked...be silent in the grave" (sheol Ps. 31:17) - they will not be screaming in agony.

"God will redeem my soul (body) from the power of the grave" (sheol Ps.49:15) - i.e. David's soul or body would be resurrected from the grave, or 'hell'.

The belief that hell is a place of punishment for the wicked from which they cannot escape just cannot be squared with this; a righteous man can go to hell (the grave) and come out again. Hos 13:14 confirms this:

"I will ransom them (God's people) from the power of the grave (sheol); I will redeem them from death".

This is also quoted in 1 Cor 15:55 and applied to the resurrection at Christ's return. Likewise in the vision of the second resurrection "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" (Rev. 20:13). Note the parallel between death, i.e. the grave, and hell (Ps. 6:5).

Hannah's words in 1 Sam. 2:6 are very clear: "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive (through resurrection): he bringeth down to the grave (sheol), and bringeth up".

The highest example is Jesus, whose "soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption" (Acts 2:31) He was resurrected!!!

Note the parallel between Christ's 'soul' and his 'flesh' or body. That his body "was not left in hell" implies that it was there for a period, i.e. the three days in which his body was in the grave. That Christ went to 'hell' should be proof enough that it is not just a place where the wicked go.

The scriptures present both good and bad people going to 'hell', or the grave.

Jesus "made his grave with the wicked" (Is. 53:9). In line with this, there are other examples of righteous men going to hell, i.e. the grave.

Jacob said that he would "go down into the grave (hell)...mourning" for his son Joseph (Gen 37:35).

Many here in the forum struggle to understand human nature as the Father sees it and therefore pagan beliefs have crept in unawares. It is one of God's principles that the punishment for sin is death (Rom. 6:23; Rom 8:13; James 1:15). A point I have continually made in this forum, but few, but Joshua & justaname have openly acknowledged.

I have shown that death is a state of complete unconsciousness and sin results in total destruction (return to dust), not eternal torment (Matt 21:41; Matt 22:7; Mark 12:9; James 4:12)

People were destroyed by the Flood (Luke 17:27,29)

Israelites died in the wilderness (1 Cor. 10:10).

On both these occasions the sinners died rather than being eternally tormented. It absolutely staggers me that Christians believe our God to be full of mercy and a compassionate Father but see Him allowing people, though wicked, punished for eternity of “conscious” torment and suffering in some fiery abode?.

Believers today associates 'hell' with the idea of fire and torment. This is in sharp contrast to Bible teaching about hell (the grave).

"Like sheep (animals) they are laid in the grave (hell); death shall feed on them" (Ps. 49:14)

Implies that the grave is a place of peaceful oblivion.

Eze. 32:26-30 gives a picture of the mighty warriors of the nations around, lying at peace in their graves: "The mighty that are fallen (in battle)...which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads...they shall lie...with them that go down to the pit".

This refers to the custom of burying warriors with their weapons, and resting the head of the corpse upon its sword. Yet this is a description of "hell" - the grave. These mighty men lying still in hell (i.e. their graves), hardly supports the idea that hell is a place of fire.

I have found many fail to see how hell or grave can be spoken figuratively so, in time, I will complete a study on the many expressions given to the grave.


Similar to Satan, Devil, Demons etc. Hell Fire or everlasting fire are expressive terms for the grave.

Alethos

 

[jiggyfly]

If a person is not kidnapped, is there a need for a ransom to be paid ? If no one is taken captive, is there anyone to exchange for money ? Hence, had Adam not rebelled in the Garden of Eden, then it would not have been necessary for a "corresponding ransom" to be given.(1 Tim 2:5, 6) Only because of Adam breaking God's command concerning the "tree of knowledge of good and bad" did it become necessary for Jesus Christ to come to the earth and become a "corresponding ransom", a perfect man for a perfect man.("corresponding ransom", Greek, an·ti´ly·tron (from an·ti´, “against; in correspondence to; in place of,” and ly´tron, “ransom [price paid]”; the King James Bible fails to bring forth the full import by using only the word "ransom" instead of "corresponding ransom" at 1 Tim 2:6)

The account at 1 Peter 1:18-20 does not say that God knew that Adam would sin in advance, but that the "precious blood" of Jesus was now foreknown to be needed "before the founding of the world." Peter used the Greek word ka·ta·bo·les´ that is translated as "founding of the world" and literally means "a throwing down of seed", that Jesus also used at Matthew 25:34, Luke 11:50 and John 17:24. This Greek word means before Adam and Eve had children or "before the founding of the world" of mankind, not the "earth."(Hebrew erets, Greek ge)

At John 17:24, Jesus said: "Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. " Moments after Adam had sinned in the Garden of Eden and "before the founding of the world" or children were conceived (children are called a man or woman's "seed" and at conception is then noted as "a throwing down of seed", as in throwing seed on the ground for planting), God took action to redeem mankind that would come to love him by giving the first prophesy at Genesis 3:15, whereby the "serpent" Satan would "bruise the woman's seed in the heel" (when Jesus was put to death on the torture stake) but the "woman's seed (or Jesus Christ) will bruise the serpent in the head"(when Satan is destroyed at the end of Jesus millennial reign, Rev 20:10)

The apostle Paul used the Greek word ka·ta·bo·les´ at Hebrews 4:3 in respect to the nation of Israel's lack of faith and thus barred from "entering into God's rest" though "his works were finished from the founding of the world". Paul further used ka·ta·bo·les´ at Hebrews 9:26 concerning Jesus having to "suffer often from the founding of the world" if his sacrifice was like those that the high priest gave yearly in the tabernacle or temple.

Therefore, had Adam not broke Jehovah God's command to not eat of "the tree of knowledge of good and bad"(Gen 2:17), then the need for a ransom or redeemer would not have been necessary, but only became as such "from before the founding of the world", when he and Eve rebelled before they ' threw down seed' or had children.

While it is true that kosmos can mean humanity it also is used to indicate all created things, the universe, and the earth and everything contained therein. I appreciate you elaborating clarifying you belief.

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky

I am yet to see you provide a single understanding in this forum.

Clearly you do not know the Greek word for hell fire.
Clearly you have no understanding of what hell fire means.
Clearly after spending numerous hours of study, and posting many articles, maybe over 50 questions all you can do is quote Rev 20:2 and feel satisfied within yourself, that you have explain away truth.

I will get to Rev 20:2 but not with you Ducky...your ears are well in truly closed.

ps. Consider how you have contributed to this forum by way of justifying your false belief?

There will be MANY in the "everlasting fire" who do not believe in the everlasting fire.

Matthew 25:41 (NKJV)
[sup]41 [/sup]Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into THE EVERLASTING FIRE prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Joshua David]

Truth,

First off, let me apologize for the slow response. I usually do not get on any of the boards on the weekends, I kinda devote that time to relaxing and spending with family. But I am back, so let's get to it.

The other issue to the idea of Satan speaking with God. When we consider how far He has distanced Himself from his earth due to sin, it is difficult to see God and some abhorrent evil manifestation in "peaceable" discussion about the life of Job. Arch enemies discussing the life of one man, and none other? What’s so special about Job?..That Satan should take such interest?

[font="tahoma][size="2"]But that is the thing, Satan and God are not Arch enemies, they are creation and creator. There is no equalness in them. Satan may be deluded into thinking that he is on a level playing field with God, with God being on the side of 'right' and Satan being on the side of 'evil', but that is a lie that he is telling himself. God uses all to accomplish his will. And God uses all to bring himself Glory. But you ask what is so special about Job? Are you serious? Satan didn't really take an interest in Job until God brought him up. God brought him up because he was to be held up as an example of someone who would hold fast to God no matter what the cost. Imagine for a sec that Satan was a fallen angel, and there were other angels there as well listening in to this conversation, both fallen and unfallen angels. Imagine what it would mean to both sides to see a creature, who was made a little lower than the angels, hold fast to God, even in the face of this much adversity. Just imagine how this would highlight the weakness in Satan's character. That this human would hold fast to his God, when Satan would not. [/size][/font]
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Everything listed has nothing to do with his relationship with God! and everything to do with his material prosperity. Why would Satan care about what Job’s possessions?

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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Did not God himself declare that Job was his servant, "Have you considered my servant, Job?" Job's relationship with God was beyond question. What else was there to talk about? I would say that he was about as righteous a man, as he could get. Does this mean that he didn't sin? Of course not. Even Job questioned God's character, and his love for him. But through it all, Job was faithful to God. [/size][/font]
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Is Satan implying that Job’s great righteousness is self-serving? Maybe that his real motive for loving and fearing God was for self-benefit? So Satan in many ways is scoffing at Job’s faith, but also at what he perceived to be God’s method of making sons by rewarding faithful service with bountiful prosperity in this life.

Satan no doubt is “one” full of envy not in terms of his relationship with God BUT what he has his possessions.

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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Of course Satan would imply that. And yes he was scoffing at Job's faith. What would you have Satan say? That Job, in a sin-filled, sin-corrupted shell of flesh was more righteous than Satan was when He was created in glory. That Job's devotion to his God was more than Satans? Satan's arrogance had to come up with a reason that Job had not abandoned his God, just like Satan had. [/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]The 'prosperity gospel' has been a lie from the very beginning. That faithfulness bring material blessing, and sinning brings disasters, and curses was a popular teaching. It was a popular teaching in Job's times. Didn't his 'friends' keep trying to convince Job to 'repent' for some great evil that he had done, even when Job kept telling them that he didn't. This was a popular teaching in Jesus' time. The disciples once asked Jesus about a man who had been blind from birth, "Who sinned, this man or his parents?" And it is popular even today. Thousands of years, and man really hasn't learned this one thing yet.[/size][/font]
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All sorts of issues arise here.

If Satan is a demonic being "full of hate" and every evil thing, and ho has been given authority by God to afflict his son:

Why would Satan need Gods authority? Does this mean every person your Satan wants to hurt needs Gods approval?
Why should Satan do as God has instructed?
Satan appears to have morality and can be trusted? Is this consistent with your teaching of Satan?

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[font="tahoma][size="2"]First of all, Yes God gave Satan authority to persecute Job, but only because God was teaching Satan and all the other angels, and even Job himself, an important truth. That God is supreme. And that Man is capable to holding fast to God even in very difficult situations. It is in the storms of our life that we are drawn to be closer to God. It is in the valleys, in the times that God is no where to be seen, that he is the closest. After all this was over, not only was Satan beaten and humiliated, but Job was closer with God than he had ever been. God is glorified. [/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]And you ask why would Satan need God's authority? Are you serious? This is the part of the reply, that I know you haven't really thought out. My question to you, is Why wouldn't Satan need God's authority? God is the creator, and Satan is the creation! God is Sovereign. Do I believe that Satan needs God's approval for every person? No, but for those who have given their life to serving God, You can bet that Satan would not dare touch one of God's annointed without permission. Why would Satan do as God instructed? BECAUSE GOD TOLD HIM TOO. God can destroy him with a thought. God can bind him in torment for eternity. Like a disobedient child who is doing something that he knows is wrong, but when the Dad, starts counting"One......... Two........." You can believe before his Dad gets to three, the little boy is running to be where he is suppose to be. [/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Again, the bible clearly states two things... I will even quote them here.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]One God gave Satan permission to afflict Job.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Job 1:12 [/size][/font][sup]12[/sup]And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


[font="tahoma][size="2"]And two, that Satan afflicted Job with the boils.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]Job 2:6-7 [/size][/font][sup]6[/sup]And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life. [sup]7[/sup]So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.


You can say that God smote Job with the boils, and I will admit that God gave permission, but the bible clearly states that Satan was the one who smote Job with the boils, not God. Does Job give God credit for doing this? Yes, and in a sense, he is not wrong, because Satan would not have been able to touch him, had God not given him his permission, but God was not the one to smite Job. Satan was.


Man does not have the power to smite other men with boils. Men do not have the power to make the wind blow to destroy houses, or make fire come down from Heaven. Neither does the 'flesh' or the carnal mind. They just don't have that power. I know that you believe differently. But consider this. You have to look at the scriptures, and consider all the scripture. The scripture states that Satan did this. That means that whatever you decide Satan is, he must have to power to accomplish all these things. If man does not have the power to accomplish all these things then man is not the Satan in this book. If the carnal mind does not have the power to accomplish all these things, then the carnal mind is not Satan in this book. The only other possibility that Satan could be is that he is a supernatural being, because only a supernatural being would have the power to do all the things that the book of Job says that Satan did.


When our understanding of scripture seems to come into conflict with what the scripture is saying, then we must change our understanding of scripture. At least to the point of saying, I do not know who Satan is in the book of Job, and I admit that it could possibly refer to a supernatural being. That doesn't change my understanding of the other scriptures, but you have a point.


Of course, if you allow for the possibility of Satan being a supernatural being in the book of Job, then you have to at least allow for the possibility for Satan being a supernatural being in the other places in the bible.


Remember the key to learning is to admit that we don't know everything and that we might be wrong in our interpretation. That doesn't mean that we can't defend our interpretation passionately. That doesn't mean that we have to accept any interpretation that comes along. It just means that we have to keep a humble spirit.


Take for instance the timing of the rapture. I fully believe that the rapture is pre-tribulational. But the pretribulational rapture doesn't answer every single question that I have, so I allow for the possibility that I could be wrong. I believe that it is possible for that rapture to be posttribulational and I believe that it is possible for the rapture to be mid-tribulational. I don't think it is, but I allow that possibility.


Conclusion: The bible is clear on certain things, and not so clear on others. One of the things that the bible is clear on is that Satan, whoever he is, with permission from God, afflicted Job with all kinds of troubles. In a sense, and as far as our discussion, it does not matter who or what Job says afflicted him, the discussion is not about Job's knowledge. It does not matter who Job's wife says afflicted Job, the discussion is not about Job's wife's knowledge, and the same can be said about his friends. The discussion is about what the Word of God says, and the Word of God states that Satan was the one to afflict Job in many different ways, that a man just does not have the power to do. To say that Satan was a man or that Satan was the carnal mind of Job is going against the clearly stated Word of God. The only other possibility is that Satan was and is a supernatural creature.


Joshua David

 

[Alethos]

But that is the thing, Satan and God are not Arch enemies,

Can you provide a quote to support this comment?

There is no equalness in them. Satan may be deluded into thinking that he is on a level playing field with God, with God being on the side of 'right' and Satan being on the side of 'evil', but that is a lie that he is telling himself. God uses all to accomplish his will. And God uses all to bring himself Glory.

The adversary does not present as a supernatural devil. He is insignificant to the overall narrative, so much so he’s not even mentioned after chapter two. To infer the above is in my humble view is wresting scriptures. A more feasible and scriptural interpretation is either an evil intent from one who knows Job...God knowing his heart and being envious at Job’s prosperity. Where God engaged a discussion to reveal his wrong thinking and evil intent. Of course the angels would need to administer the trials upon Job. If you really consider the evidence you will see this has a better foundation to build you reasoning’s upon.



This issue Joshua is a very simple one that many Christians wrestle with and that is the word Satan, if you replaced the word with Adversary you could not “possibly” read all the guff which is leveraged from these few scriptures.

But you ask what is so special about Job? Are you serious? Satan didn't really take an interest in Job until God brought him up. God brought him up because he was to be held up as an example of someone who would hold fast to God no matter what the cost. Imagine for a sec that Satan was a fallen angel, and there were other angels there as well listening in to this conversation, both fallen and unfallen angels.

You misinterpreted the intent of the question.

There are numerous characters in the narrative ,one of which is Job. Why did the adversary choose Job? Why not his friends? or his wife? Because this adversary envied his material wealth and believed his righteousness was based on his love of things. The adversary thought Job’s loyalty was based on fleshly possiessions and not spiritual principals.

Imagine what it would mean to both sides to see a creature, who was made a little lower than the angels, hold fast to God, even in the face of this much adversity. Just imagine how this would highlight the weakness in Satan's character. That this human would hold fast to his God, when Satan would not.

Show me in the Scriptures (verses and chapters) where we can find the following about Satan.

satan’s character
satans dwelling place
Where are whole chapters of books given to explain how He works? And where God is warning about his devices?
Where does Satan first enter the Bible story? Job???
Where in the Garden were Adam & Eve taught about this supernatural being?

Sorry Joshua these are pagan tales conjured up in the minds of men to scare people into serving the Father. It wrecks of a fear based religion where devils with pitch forks persuade people to do evil...little do they know the devil is from within!

The word satan simply means an adversary:

"The Lord stirred up an adversary (A SATAN) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite" (1 Kings 11:14). "Lest in the battle, he (David) be an adversary (A SATAN) to us" (1 Samuel 29:4). "There is neither adversary (SATAN) nor evil occurrent" (1 Kings 5:4).

1. Is God a Satan?
2. Is David a Satan?

Satan is used of both God & David! Explain these verses applying your understanding of satan!

KJV: Set thou a wicked man over him: and let Satan stand at his right hand. {Satan: or, an adversary}

ASV: Set thou a wicked man over him; And let an adversary stand at his right hand.

NIV: Appoint an evil man to oppose him; let an accuser (satan) stand at his right hand.

NAS: Appoint a wicked man over him; And let an accuser stand at his right hand.

RSV: Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser bring him to trial.

NKJ: Set a wicked man over him, And let an accuser stand at his right hand.

Conclusion:

Joshua, I do respect you greatly, but your arguments lack scriptural depth and support. You cannot prove from the Bible that this Satan is some fallen angel? Let alone scripturally prove when, where and how this angel fell?

I only get from you "inferred" discussion from you which speaks to its error. Every single passage where “adversary is used” can be explained as either a person or person’s standing in the way of others either for negative or positive reasons. I have proven this over and over from the Bible, from scriptures of truth.

What passage of Scriptures reveals this angel falling?

How did it happen and for what reason did he fall?

What were the circumstance‘s in Heaven that this should happen?

Chapter and verses please.

Much to prove Joshua.

Alethos

ps. Your hope and reward of eternal life with the possiblilty of sinning astounds me Joshua. You still dont understand the wages of sin is death! Angel sins = Angel dies ???? :blink:

Why do you think God rushed Adam and Eve out of the garden? after they sinned? YOU CANNOT HAVE AN ETERNAL SINNER - Impossible and totally unscriptual.

 

[religusnut]

This is THE QUESTION of the ages. It's been asked millions of times by millions of people. But there has yet to be an answer.

The new going cliche' is that "God doesn't send people to hell, they send themselves." This sounds catchy, but how much truth really is there to this? This would lead one to examine the subject of Free will, election, and predeterminism. I've found that it is impossible to discuss hell without getting into other theological subjects, because it all ties together.

It then always leads back to the question, IF God is in fact omnipresent (everywhere at the same time) omnipotent (all powerful), and omniscient (all knowing), why did He ever allow "sin" or evil to enter into Heaven (where sin began in the form of pride)? If He doesn't make mistakes, how did He manage to create a defective angel? If He is all knowing, why was He furious at Lucifer's rebellion as if He was surprised? If He knew what Lucifer was going to do before He created Him (which the bible clearly illustrates that He did), this means that He created evil (Isaiah 45:7). The bible says that He had already made the plan of redemption from before the foundations of the world. So, it should be a no-brainer that God orchestrated all of the bad along with the good. David even said that God was in hell, as well as Heaven. It would makes sense, because the bible says that the Heavens of Heavens can't contain God, so hell would also have to be inside of God.

I don't understand how Christians come up with the argument that God is not behind disaster and destruction, when it is as clear as day in Isaiah 45:7 alone, not to meantion the many passages throughout scripture that reiterates God's for knowledge of the bad, as well as the good. If He was only all knowing, then, I could see the possibility of Him not being behind evil. But when you put "all powerful and ever present together with all seeing, you have a God who has the upper hand in every single situation and idea. He is the master chess player.

So, my question is, if God is love--not just has love but IS love, what does this say about love? Is love itself a deceitful term? We know that Go hates, because it states examples of His hate all through the bible. Not to be in any way sacrilegious (it's not blasphemous because I'm not accusing), but one cannot HELP but at least wonder if "God" is really a tyrant at least, and a moral monster at the most. Like what excuse can you offer for this biblical God. What reasoning can you come up with to make Him look like less than a universal manipulator?

I can already hear the blasphemy police coming. So, again, I'm not trying to be sacrilegious, I'm just being honest.

God only wants us to love Him and obey Him. That is perfect love. He loves us with a perfect love also.

If there were no free wil and no evil then we would not have a choice as to whether to love Him or not. If there were no evil we would not have a choice to obey or not obey.

It is impossible to be loved by a robot. People are not robots.

 

[Alethos]

“All” knew that God had brought the evil upon Job​

Adversary: 1:11 Stretch out Your hand and touch (2:5)

Job: 1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. (2:10)

6:4 The arrows of the Almighty are within me.

9:17 He crushes me multiplies my wounds without cause.

10:8 Your hands made me yet You would destroy me.

19:6 Know then that God has wronged me.

27:2 As God lives, who has taken away my justice.

Friends: 5:17 Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.

8:4 He has cast your sons away for their transgression.

11:6 God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.

God: 2:3 You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.

42:11 All the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him.


It appears that Satan possessed no extraordinary power, at all? If God hadn’t engage the adversary who clearly was harbouring jealousy, this adversary would have remain silent and without any power to do anything to Job. The very fact they were civily speaking shows the adversary not possess the evil traits you would expect from such a monster. There are greater villains who are mortal (Joab) than this passive adversary presented in the word of God.

His questions are not angry, nor is there any great malice in his words. If this is your great and powerful Satan then you have nothing to worry here! He sounds like a timid confused mere mortal rather than some dark creature of the dead.

It also appears he was merely permitted to be the instigator of God to put his servant Job to the full proof. In other words God had raised a son to great prosperity and found one who became envious only to reveal his character to be righteous.

Your Satan is not very smart either!

Time after time it is always God afflicting Job, we must ask the question why?


Job says " Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with His net. He hath fenced up my way. He hath stripped me of my glory. He hath destroyed me on every side. He hath also kindled His wrath against me. His troops come together, and raise up their way against me and encamp round about my tabernacle. He hath put my brethren far from me. Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, 0 ye, my friends for the hand of God hath touched me."

It can be safely assumed that while the adversary had wrong motives he himself had no power at all he was totally powerless without Gods involvement.

Again I ask the question; if this Satan wanted to afflict Job did he have the ability/authority? Did he have the power to carry out such a task! Clearly he needed God’s power to inflict the Evil.

We know that Evil always comes from the hand of God so where does this leave room for a supernatural monster?

If evil does not come from the devil, but from God.

Of good and evil God is the author; man is the author of sin. Evil is the punishment of God upon man the sinner. " I form the light and create darkness ; I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."

“Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"

"Therefore, thus saith the Lord, Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks "

The evidence presented in Job conveys that Job’s adversary was not superior or inferior to man; my own belief is that he was a fellow-worshipper, who was envious at the prosperity of Job," Doth Job serve God for nought ? But put forth thine hand and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face."

BUT how is Job present elsewhere in the Scriptures?

Eze 14:18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

Eze 14:19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

Interesting that SATAN is silent and nowhere to be found in the book of Ezekiel??? In fact the word Satan is only mentioned in "4" of the 39 OT books. He doesn’t do much does he?

Job is one of the few (yes literally three) books which state Satan and not “adversary”.

I wonder why? Imagine if you replace the word Satan in Job? Would you read the fairy tales of of the supernatural? I doubt it.

In Ezekiel revealing the excellence of Jobs character being placed alongside Noah and Daniel a righteous man whose intercession saved others.

Consider the judgements of God upon His people given there. No reference to the adversary of Job either?

James also cites Job as the ultimate example of faithfully enduring suffering.

‘You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful’ (Jas 5:11).

The end was intended by the Lord or how the purpose of God by bringing the evil upon Job revealed a very compassionate and merciful God.

Imagine is Satan was torturing Job and God was sending evil Job’s way as well?

Can you see it happening?

I didn’t think so.

Nowhere did Job once speak of this supernatural being? Why not, if the belief is as well accepted as you say why wouldn’t we have Job pleading with God to take down this demonic monster?

NO

For Job latter end to which God alone brought Job revealed no overcoming of Evil because God used Evil to fashion his sufferings – no mention of how wrong this evil was, no mention of the evil intentions of the adversary being proved wrong either!

NO

Jobs ultimate elevation was designed by God from the beginning. Yes even before the adversary harboured this thoughts. The word "end" is from the Greek telos and denotes the completion of a process. God alone took him through the spiritual process in James 1:3-5

Paul wrote: "I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Rom.8:18).

God alone has predetermined a great destiny for those who are obedient to His

will (Eph. 1:5-6).

Alethos

​

​

​

​

​

 

[Joshua David]

Truth,


I wanted to mention one thing to you.

There are numerous characters in the narrative ,one of which is Job. Why did the adversary choose Job? Why not his friends? or his wife? Because this adversary envied his material wealth and believed his righteousness was based on his love of things. The adversary thought Job’s loyalty was based on fleshly possiessions and not spiritual principals.

[font="tahoma][size="3"]If you would go back and read the beginning of the book of Job you will find that the adversary did not choose Job. God was the one who first brought him up. But it is clear that we are not going to get any where in this discussion. I personally don't care if the word Satan, or the word Adversary is used. The Word of God clearly, unambiguously, without question states that Satan, or the adversary if you prefer, afflicted Job. Now you can do all kind of Mental gymnastics to get around this fact, but I am simply telling you what the Word of God says. It says that Satan afflicted Job. I want you to get this point. Satan, or the adversary afflicted Job. He did it with God's permission, but he (Satan) was the one who did it. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]I am sorry that this verse messes up your carefully thought out ideas, but I am not the one who wrote the bible. The bible states that Satan afflicted Job, just like the bible states that Satan transported Jesus to the city. So who ever you decide that Satan is, if you believe that bible to be completely true, then you have to believe that he has the power to do the things that the bible said he did. Unless you are advocating rewriting the bible, in order to make it say what you believe to be true. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]Now are there times that the word Satan is used to mean a man? Yes! I will admit this. Can you admit that the bible states that Satan afflicted Job? If you can admit this, then you have to admit that the adversary in the book of Job must have the power to do the things that the book of Job said he did. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]The sad part is, believe it or not, I agree with about 80% of what you are saying. ( which is a lot ) So most of what you are saying I am in complete agreement on, but none of that addresses the fact that the bible clearly states that Satan afflicted Job. [/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]
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[font="tahoma][size="3"]Joshua David[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]
[/size][/font]
[font="tahoma][size="3"]
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[Alethos]

[font="tahoma][size="3"]If you would go back and read the beginning of the book of Job you will find that the adversary did not choose Job. God was the one who first brought him up. [/size][/font][font="tahoma][size="3"] [/size][/font][font="tahoma][size="3"]
[/size][/font]

Agreed.

But

Why would God approach your supernatural being to prove His own sons are righteous?
Is God answerable to Satan?
Does God need to prove anything to this co called Monster?
Why is God trying to teach Satan, when he is only worthy of destruction? The apostle dusted their feet off and moved from those who were unteachable? So why would God who is all powerful and wise teach his children to engage with a Satan?

Your logic and reasoning makes no sense at all?

If as you say God approaches your demonic monster to prove Jobs righteousness did God think He could change?

I appreciate its a difficult passage, but clearly the evidence (which is not mental gymnastics), but rather an enquiring mind to the scriptures suggests no feasible reason why God would talk peaceable to a being you say will be destroyed in Heaven at some future time? The whole thing is illogical and unreasonable and has no premise in the Bible.

In relation to your other comments; I assume in your comments you make reference to the below verse?

[sup]12[/sup]And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he (Job) hath is in thy power; only upon himself (Job) put not forth thine hand. So Satan (Adversary) went forth from the presence of the LORD.

How do you reconcile then the above verse which you state "proves" the adversary was responsible for all his sufferings, with the below overwhelming evidence?

Adversary: 1:11 Stretch out Your hand and touch (2:5)

Job: 1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. (2:10)

6:4 The arrows of the Almighty are within me.

9:17 He crushes me multiplies my wounds without cause.

10:8 Your hands made me yet You would destroy me.

19:6 Know then that God has wronged me.

27:2 As God lives, who has taken away my justice.

Friends: 5:17 Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.

8:4 He has cast your sons away for their transgression.

11:6 God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.

God: 2:3 You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.

42:11 All the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him.

Job says " Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with His net. He hath fenced up my way. He hath stripped me of my glory. He hath destroyed me on every side. He hath also kindled His wrath against me. His troops come together, and raise up their way against me and encamp round about my tabernacle. He hath put my brethren far from me. Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, 0 ye, my friends for the hand of God hath touched me."

You must conclude that God took on the responsibility, control, power and planning of Evil which was place upon Job.

And the reality of the matter is whether it was an angel, or fellow worshipper or the fairy god mother the adversary had no power of themselves, powerless!

all that he (Job) hath is in thy power - meaning God granted this person the ability to bring upon Job what God would allow and nothing more or less.

You are still left with a powerless supernatural demonic creature that is absolutely reliant on the Father in all things.

Is this all you can produce as evidence of God’s inability to control His angelic host?

I am appealing even further (than 80%) for you to consider the evidence offered.

Alethos

ps. I have just read this again, and I feel a sense of frustration behind my words, I am passionate for all our sakes that the battle we ought to be fighting is not supernatural, but physical and its out of a great love for all here that I teach these things.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Hell​

The popular concept of hell here is of a place of punishment for wicked 'immortal souls' straight after death, or the place of torment for those who are rejected at the judgment.

The Hebrew word for hell is 'sheol' and means 'a covered place'.

There are many examples where the original word 'sheol' is translated 'grave'. Today in 2011 many modern Bible versions rarely use the word 'hell' translating it more properly as 'grave'.

I have outlined a few examples of where this word 'sheol' is translated 'grave' which should correct the popular notion of hell as a place of fire and torment for the wicked:

"Let the wicked...be silent in the grave" (sheol Ps. 31:17) - they will not be screaming in agony.

"God will redeem my soul (body) from the power of the grave" (sheol Ps.49:15) - i.e. David's soul or body would be resurrected from the grave, or 'hell'.

The belief that hell is a place of punishment for the wicked from which they cannot escape just cannot be squared with this; a righteous man can go to hell (the grave) and come out again. Hos 13:14 confirms this:

"I will ransom them (God's people) from the power of the grave (sheol); I will redeem them from death".

This is also quoted in 1 Cor 15:55 and applied to the resurrection at Christ's return. Likewise in the vision of the second resurrection "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" (Rev. 20:13). Note the parallel between death, i.e. the grave, and hell (Ps. 6:5).

Hannah's words in 1 Sam. 2:6 are very clear: "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive (through resurrection): he bringeth down to the grave (sheol), and bringeth up".

The highest example is Jesus, whose "soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption" (Acts 2:31) He was resurrected!!!

Note the parallel between Christ's 'soul' and his 'flesh' or body. That his body "was not left in hell" implies that it was there for a period, i.e. the three days in which his body was in the grave. That Christ went to 'hell' should be proof enough that it is not just a place where the wicked go.

The scriptures present both good and bad people going to 'hell', or the grave.

Jesus "made his grave with the wicked" (Is. 53:9). In line with this, there are other examples of righteous men going to hell, i.e. the grave.

Jacob said that he would "go down into the grave (hell)...mourning" for his son Joseph (Gen 37:35).

Many here in the forum struggle to understand human nature as the Father sees it and therefore pagan beliefs have crept in unawares. It is one of God's principles that the punishment for sin is death (Rom. 6:23; Rom 8:13; James 1:15). A point I have continually made in this forum, but few, but Joshua & justaname have openly acknowledged.

I have shown that death is a state of complete unconsciousness and sin results in total destruction (return to dust), not eternal torment (Matt 21:41; Matt 22:7; Mark 12:9; James 4:12)

People were destroyed by the Flood (Luke 17:27,29)

Israelites died in the wilderness (1 Cor. 10:10).

On both these occasions the sinners died rather than being eternally tormented. It absolutely staggers me that Christians believe our God to be full of mercy and a compassionate Father but see Him allowing people, though wicked, punished for eternity of “conscious” torment and suffering in some fiery abode?.

Believers today associates 'hell' with the idea of fire and torment. This is in sharp contrast to Bible teaching about hell (the grave).

"Like sheep (animals) they are laid in the grave (hell); death shall feed on them" (Ps. 49:14)

Implies that the grave is a place of peaceful oblivion.

Eze. 32:26-30 gives a picture of the mighty warriors of the nations around, lying at peace in their graves: "The mighty that are fallen (in battle)...which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads...they shall lie...with them that go down to the pit".

This refers to the custom of burying warriors with their weapons, and resting the head of the corpse upon its sword. Yet this is a description of "hell" - the grave. These mighty men lying still in hell (i.e. their graves), hardly supports the idea that hell is a place of fire.

I have found many fail to see how hell or grave can be spoken figuratively so, in time, I will complete a study on the many expressions given to the grave.


Similar to Satan, Devil, Demons etc. Hell Fire or everlasting fire are expressive terms for the grave.

Alethos

Now this is interesting!

Seems to me that Hell, is not burning and torment. That makes sense and that's very clear. Hell and death are not the same thing either. Even if the words are spelled the same or the same word is used to describe 2 different things.

If you note, Hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire, smoke from their torment rises for ever and ever, the worm never dies, etc etc The second death is the lake of fire, not Hell.

 

[justaname]

On the subject of Job:

Job 2 : 3 (KJV) And the Lord said to Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movest me against him, to destroy him without cause.


Fairly simple Satan's request for God's hand to move to action.

Job 2 : 5-6 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the Lord said to Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

In verse 5 Satan is asking for the Lord to extend his hand, and in verse 6 the Lord put the action back on Satan.

 

[Alethos]

Now this is interesting!

Seems to me that Hell, is not burning and torment. That makes sense and that's very clear. Hell and death are not the same thing either. Even if the words are spelled the same or the same word is used to describe 2 different things.

If you note, Hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire, smoke from their torment rises for ever and ever, the worm never dies, etc etc The second death is the lake of fire, not Hell.

WhiteKnuckle

If you would read your above statement once more please....do you know what you are reading?....truth!

You dont know how long I have been contending in forums like this one (The second death is the lake of fire, not Hell) and you get it straight away.

Now take this understanding an explore the scriptures and watch wisdom jump off its pages.

You dont know how much this encourages me.

Thank you WhiteKnuckle...may blessings abound and your eyes widen.

Alethos

 

[Alethos]

Please explain Gen 3. Who was this serpent. Who are the Cherubims? Please explain Gen 6: 1-2. Why the whole story of Adam and Eve to begin with? What about Job 1: 6-12 and 2: 1- 7 Did Job go to bring these evils upon himself? Was it Job's cardinal nature that put boils on his own feet?

Sorry justaname I didn’t get around to answering your above questions?

You ask who is the serpent?

I will ask you a question.

Who is Adam?....well Adam is Adam.

Who are you? You are you.

Who is the serpent? the serpent is the serpent. An animal that was given speech...and that’s all I am sorry. But it was enough to present an alternative way of thinking (Carnal) into he garden and for God to test His children.

Who are the Cherubim the block the way to the tree of life? The Cherubim are the Cherubim.

Why the whole story of Adam and Eve to begin with? Oh, if I had time to expound to you the first three chapters of the Bible. They are the foundation chapters from which the whole house is built. If you don’t understand Gen 1-3 you can never understand what follows. Gen 1-3 are the most important chapters in all 66 books.

I think after I finish presenting Rev 21 (New Heavens and Earth topic) I shall start with Gen 1-3

God Bless

Alethos
BTW my name is Shane...but I like truth

 

[Alethos]

Truth,

[font="tahoma][size="3"]The sad part is, believe it or not, I agree with about 80% of what you are saying. ( which is a lot ) So most of what you are saying I am in complete agreement on, but none of that addresses the fact that the bible clearly states that Satan afflicted Job. [/size][/font]

[font="tahoma][size="3"]Joshua David[/size][/font][font="tahoma][size="3"]
[/size][/font]

Joshua,

My wife and I went out this evening for a coffee. We have four wonderful children who keep us very busy. Anyway, I was explaining to her how much I admire your willingness to listen and open the Word of God. She said quote "If he has 80% of the understanding (adversary) this gives him the basis to seek out the other 20% for himself"

After she spoke these words it dawned on me that we can plant the seed, but God gives the increase.

May God give you that increase Joshua.

I have truely valued our discusion and pray we can sit under a fig tree in the future age and share these heavenly gems.

Alethos...my name is Shane but I love truth.

 

[Joshua David]

Joshua,

My wife and I went out this evening for a coffee. We have four wonderful children who keep us very busy. Anyway, I was explaining to her how much I admire your willingness to listen and open the Word of God. She said quote "If he has 80% of the understanding (adversary) this gives him the basis to seek out the other 20% for himself"

After she spoke these words it dawned on me that we can plant the seed, but God gives the increase.

May God give you that increase Joshua.

I have truely valued our discusion and pray we can sit under a fig tree in the future age and share these heavenly gems.

Alethos...my name is Shane but I love truth.

Alethos, when discussing different ideas about the bible, sometimes the best that you can hope for is that the other person hears what you are saying. I can definitely tell you that I have enjoyed our conversations immensely. And as the bible says, "As Iron sharpens Iron", your passion for the word of God has encouraged me to dig even deeper into his word and for that I thank you. When we get to Heaven my friend, you will alway be welcome at my home, and I look forward to spending hours discussing the word of God. May God bless you and keep you, May the Lord make his face to shine upon you and give you strength.

Be blessed in your studies my friend,

Joshua David

 

[religusnut]

“All” knew that God had brought the evil upon Job​

Adversary: 1:11 Stretch out Your hand and touch (2:5)

Job: 1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. (2:10)

6:4 The arrows of the Almighty are within me.

9:17 He crushes me multiplies my wounds without cause.

10:8 Your hands made me yet You would destroy me.

19:6 Know then that God has wronged me.

27:2 As God lives, who has taken away my justice.

Friends: 5:17 Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty.

8:4 He has cast your sons away for their transgression.

11:6 God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves.

God: 2:3 You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause.

42:11 All the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him.


It appears that Satan possessed no extraordinary power, at all? If God hadn’t engage the adversary who clearly was harbouring jealousy, this adversary would have remain silent and without any power to do anything to Job. The very fact they were civily speaking shows the adversary not possess the evil traits you would expect from such a monster. There are greater villains who are mortal (Joab) than this passive adversary presented in the word of God.

His questions are not angry, nor is there any great malice in his words. If this is your great and powerful Satan then you have nothing to worry here! He sounds like a timid confused mere mortal rather than some dark creature of the dead.

It also appears he was merely permitted to be the instigator of God to put his servant Job to the full proof. In other words God had raised a son to great prosperity and found one who became envious only to reveal his character to be righteous.

Your Satan is not very smart either!

Time after time it is always God afflicting Job, we must ask the question why?


Job says " Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with His net. He hath fenced up my way. He hath stripped me of my glory. He hath destroyed me on every side. He hath also kindled His wrath against me. His troops come together, and raise up their way against me and encamp round about my tabernacle. He hath put my brethren far from me. Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, 0 ye, my friends for the hand of God hath touched me."

It can be safely assumed that while the adversary had wrong motives he himself had no power at all he was totally powerless without Gods involvement.

Again I ask the question; if this Satan wanted to afflict Job did he have the ability/authority? Did he have the power to carry out such a task! Clearly he needed God’s power to inflict the Evil.

We know that Evil always comes from the hand of God so where does this leave room for a supernatural monster?

If evil does not come from the devil, but from God.

Of good and evil God is the author; man is the author of sin. Evil is the punishment of God upon man the sinner. " I form the light and create darkness ; I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things."

“Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?"

"Therefore, thus saith the Lord, Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks "

The evidence presented in Job conveys that Job’s adversary was not superior or inferior to man; my own belief is that he was a fellow-worshipper, who was envious at the prosperity of Job," Doth Job serve God for nought ? But put forth thine hand and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face."

BUT how is Job present elsewhere in the Scriptures?

Eze 14:18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.

Eze 14:19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:

Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

Eze 14:21 For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?

Interesting that SATAN is silent and nowhere to be found in the book of Ezekiel??? In fact the word Satan is only mentioned in "4" of the 39 OT books. He doesn’t do much does he?

Job is one of the few (yes literally three) books which state Satan and not “adversary”.

I wonder why? Imagine if you replace the word Satan in Job? Would you read the fairy tales of of the supernatural? I doubt it.

In Ezekiel revealing the excellence of Jobs character being placed alongside Noah and Daniel a righteous man whose intercession saved others.

Consider the judgements of God upon His people given there. No reference to the adversary of Job either?

James also cites Job as the ultimate example of faithfully enduring suffering.

‘You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful’ (Jas 5:11).

The end was intended by the Lord or how the purpose of God by bringing the evil upon Job revealed a very compassionate and merciful God.

Imagine is Satan was torturing Job and God was sending evil Job’s way as well?

Can you see it happening?

I didn’t think so.

Nowhere did Job once speak of this supernatural being? Why not, if the belief is as well accepted as you say why wouldn’t we have Job pleading with God to take down this demonic monster?

NO

For Job latter end to which God alone brought Job revealed no overcoming of Evil because God used Evil to fashion his sufferings – no mention of how wrong this evil was, no mention of the evil intentions of the adversary being proved wrong either!

NO

Jobs ultimate elevation was designed by God from the beginning. Yes even before the adversary harboured this thoughts. The word "end" is from the Greek telos and denotes the completion of a process. God alone took him through the spiritual process in James 1:3-5

Paul wrote: "I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Rom.8:18).

God alone has predetermined a great destiny for those who are obedient to His

will (Eph. 1:5-6).

Alethos

​

​

​

​

​

All of Job's rantings were written in the Hebrew Idiom of permission. This Idiom is easiest understood if one realizes that they had a limited understanding of the devil. Job himself even lamented that if only his adversary had written a book. Because he had a limited understanding of the devil he blamed all of his problems on God. The early part of the book of Job clearly tells you that the devil did it. Unless one understands the nature of God and the nature of the devil all bad things will be attributed to God.

Another clear example of the idiom is the books of Samuel which were written from that perspective. However Chronicles was written from God's perspective. In the story of David numbering Israel in Samuel it says that the Lord cause him to number Israel. In Chronicles which was written without the Idiom it says that the devil caused him to number Israel. God never predestined anybody to hell. We are all predestined to heaven. We go to hell because of our choices.

Job blamed his problems on God. When he repented for all of the mess you listed above blaming God then he was restored. That is God's mercy.

Even Adam blamed God for his problems. the first recorded words out of his mouth after he sinned were, "That woman that YOU gave me....." Insinuating that if God had not given the woman he would not be in that mess.

Always remember good and perfect from God. Not good and perfect. From the devil.

I ask you please repent for blaming all of that on God as well.

 

[Duckybill]

Even Adam blamed God for his problems. the first recorded words out of his mouth after he sinned were, "That woman that YOU gave me....." Insinuating that if God had not given the woman he would not be in that mess.

LOL!

 

[Alethos]

All of Job's rantings were written in the Hebrew Idiom of permission. This Idiom is easiest understood if one realizes that they had a limited understanding of the devil. Job himself even lamented that if only his adversary had written a book. Because he had a limited understanding of the devil he blamed all of his problems on God. The early part of the book of Job clearly tells you that the devil did it. Unless one understands the nature of God and the nature of the devil all bad things will be attributed to God.

Another clear example of the idiom is the books of Samuel which were written from that perspective. However Chronicles was written from God's perspective. In the story of David numbering Israel in Samuel it says that the Lord cause him to number Israel. In Chronicles which was written without the Idiom it says that the devil caused him to number Israel. God never predestined anybody to hell. We are all predestined to heaven. We go to hell because of our choices.

Job blamed his problems on God. When he repented for all of the mess you listed above blaming God then he was restored. That is God's mercy.

Even Adam blamed God for his problems. the first recorded words out of his mouth after he sinned were, "That woman that YOU gave me....." Insinuating that if God had not given the woman he would not be in that mess.

Always remember good and perfect from God. Not good and perfect. From the devil.

I ask you please repent for blaming all of that on God as well.

Attributing evil to God is vastly different than apportioning blame. Blame implies God was doing wrong! God is never wrong unlike your thoughts above.

You are grappling at ways to justify that your devil has no power, and that God was the one who did these things to Job.

I think if you reread your comments you will see your premise is all wrong and does not address that God brought “all” this evil upon Job.

I am content to leave this topic having reasoned out the true nature of the adversary and having ask numerous unanswered questions which remain unanswered. The weight of doubt surrounding the adversary is so great, that to conjure up a fantastical monster is unreal.

Kinda like the devil.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Attributing evil to God is vastly different than apportioning blame. Blame implies God was doing wrong! God is never wrong unlike your thoughts above.

You are grappling at ways to justify that your devil has no power, and that God was the one who did these things to Job.

I think if you reread your comments you will see your premise is all wrong and does not address that God brought “all” this evil upon Job.

I am content to leave this topic having reasoned out the true nature of the adversary and having ask numerous unanswered questions which remain unanswered. The weight of doubt surrounding the adversary is so great, that to conjure up a fantastical monster is unreal.

Kinda like the devil.

Alethos

So then, you are right and all the English translators are wrong. I see.

1 Peter 5:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.