Why Woul a Loving God Create Such a Hateful Place?

[Alethos]

So then, you are right and all the English translators are wrong. I see.

1 Peter 5:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

You know Ducky on my way home tonight I actually saw a demonic monster devour two people on the side of the road, it was a frightening experience.

Be careful Ducky!

 

[Alethos]

All of Job's rantings were written in the Hebrew Idiom of permission. This Idiom is easiest understood if one realizes that they had a limited understanding of the devil. Job himself even lamented that if only his adversary had written a book. Because he had a limited understanding of the devil he blamed all of his problems on God. The early part of the book of Job clearly tells you that the devil did it. Unless one understands the nature of God and the nature of the devil all bad things will be attributed to God.

So you are implying that God placed Job into a battle with a supernatural being without telling him or warning him of his devices? And you really believe that?

Another clear example of the idiom is the books of Samuel which were written from that perspective. However Chronicles was written from God's perspective. In the story of David numbering Israel in Samuel it says that the Lord cause him to number Israel. In Chronicles which was written without the Idiom it says that the devil caused him to number Israel. God never predestined anybody to hell. We are all predestined to heaven. We go to hell because of our choices.

Sounds impressive. But where are the scriptures quoted? I searched the bible for the word "idiom" couldnt find it so I went to google, as I am a simple man.

Idiom (Latin: idioma, “special property”, f. Greek: ἰδίωμα — idiōma, “special feature, special phrasing”, f. Greek: ἴδιος — idios, “one’s own”) is an expression, word, or phrase that has a figurative meaning that is comprehended in regard to a common use of that expression that is separate from the literal meaning or definition of the words of which it is made

figurative meaning? hmm like Satan & devil.

Job blamed his problems on God. When he repented for all of the mess you listed above blaming God then he was restored. That is God's mercy.

Even Adam blamed God for his problems. the first recorded words out of his mouth after he sinned were, "That woman that YOU gave me....." Insinuating that if God had not given the woman he would not be in that mess.

Always remember good and perfect from God. Not good and perfect. From the devil.

I ask you please repent for blaming all of that on God as well.

But on a more serious note...

Your understanding of blame is somewhat different to mine.

Adversary: 1:11 Stretch out Your hand and touch (2:5) No blame here!

Job: 1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. (2:10) No Blame here!

6:4 The arrows of the Almighty are within me. No blame here!

9:17 He crushes me multiplies my wounds without cause. You should read chapter nine, its all about blame. Job 9:22

10:8 Your hands made me yet You would destroy me. No blame here

19:6 know then that God has put me in the wrong and closed his net about me. No blame

27:2 As God lives, who has taken away my justice. No blame

Friends: 5:17 Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. No blame but understanding of thier position before God.

8:4 He has cast your sons away for their transgression. Not true, but no blame here.

11:6 God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves. No blame

God: 2:3 You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause. No blame

42:11 All the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. FACT - but no blame

"Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God"


Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

And should there be any blame apportioned to God from Job, or any other son and daughter, for that matter, in time they will repent and come to an understanding that God disciplines HIMSELF those he loves.

God disciplines his sons and daughters...not some supernatural monster or even an earthly adversary! The Father alone brings evil apon us and fashions evil for the purpose of good.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do "all" these things.

Alethos

ps. There are so many scriptures that are made false by believing in a make believe monster. The above is just one of them.

 

[religusnut]

So you are implying that God placed Job into a battle with a supernatural being without telling him or warning him of his devices? And you really believe that?



Sounds impressive. But where are the scriptures quoted? I searched the bible for the word "idiom" couldnt find it so I went to google, as I am a simple man.

Idiom (Latin: idioma, “special property”, f. Greek: ἰδίωμα — idiōma, “special feature, special phrasing”, f. Greek: ἴδιος — idios, “one’s own”) is an expression, word, or phrase that has a figurative meaning that is comprehended in regard to a common use of that expression that is separate from the literal meaning or definition of the words of which it is made

figurative meaning? hmm like Satan & devil.



But on a more serious note...

Your understanding of blame is somewhat different to mine.

Adversary: 1:11 Stretch out Your hand and touch (2:5) No blame here!

Job: 1:21 The Lord gave, and the Lord has taken away. (2:10) No Blame here!

6:4 The arrows of the Almighty are within me. No blame here!

9:17 He crushes me multiplies my wounds without cause. You should read chapter nine, its all about blame. Job 9:22

10:8 Your hands made me yet You would destroy me. No blame here

19:6 know then that God has put me in the wrong and closed his net about me. No blame

27:2 As God lives, who has taken away my justice. No blame

Friends: 5:17 Do not despise the chastening of the Almighty. No blame but understanding of thier position before God.

8:4 He has cast your sons away for their transgression. Not true, but no blame here.

11:6 God exacts from you less than your iniquity deserves. No blame

God: 2:3 You incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause. No blame

42:11 All the adversity that the Lord had brought upon him. FACT - but no blame

"Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?" "Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God"


Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

And should there be any blame apportioned to God from Job, or any other son and daughter, for that matter, in time they will repent and come to an understanding that God disciplines HIMSELF those he loves.

God disciplines his sons and daughters...not some supernatural monster or even an earthly adversary! The Father alone brings evil apon us and fashions evil for the purpose of good.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do "all" these things.

Alethos

ps. There are so many scriptures that are made false by believing in a make believe monster. The above is just one of them.

Truth you stole $20 from me last night and I want it back. I want it right this minute. I am not interested in your excuses. I want my money.

 

[Alethos]

Truth you stole $20 from me last night and I want it back. I want it right this minute. I am not interested in your excuses. I want my money.

Ok, you have seen the monster devouring people also. I get it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Alethos

Did the monster have horns?

 

[religusnut]

Ok, you have seen the monster devouring people also. I get it.

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Alethos

Did the monster have horns?

No the point is I obviously know you did not take $20 from me. However me accusing you of taking my $20 is no different from Job accusing God of things He did not do either.

 

[Alethos]

No the point is I obviously know you did not take $20 from me. However me accusing you of taking my $20 is no different from Job accusing God of things He did not do either.

Your premise is all wrong read Job 42...the conclusion of the matter is attributed to God, He brought the evil upon Job...sorry you cannot escape all the evidence. You have come into the discussion very late, so you might like to go over the posts. There is little point in me repeating myself when so many questions have gone unanswered, so much doubt surrounds this adversary which makes it clear it wasnt some supernatural being.

The study has concluded.

Alethos

 

[religusnut]

Your premise is all wrong read Job 42...the conclusion of the matter is attributed to God, He brought the evil upon Job...sorry you cannot escape all the evidence. You have come into the discussion very late, so you might like to go over the posts. There is little point in me repeating myself when so many questions have gone unanswered, so much doubt surrounds this adversary which makes it clear it wasnt some supernatural being.

The study has concluded.

Alethos

Yep I see what you mean. You are clueless and want me to think you are a Bible Scholar.

 

[Alethos]

Yep I see what you mean. You are clueless and want me to think you are a Bible Scholar.

You entered a topic where some 140 posts by believers have presented their arguments supported by scriptures. If you have something to add to the thread which presents new information, then by all means please proceed.

1 Th 5:21 has been the spirit of this forum where Bible Quotes have been provided and discussed. I am not concerned what you think of me, I am only concerned about Gods Word and His Truth...as you should, but resorting to disparaging remarks is unfruitful and unwise, and leads to ill feeling and malice.

I prefer a clean conscience religusnut.

By way of encouragement if you believe you can prove from the Bible that satan is a supernatural being, the next post be yours.

Alethos

 

[religusnut]

You entered a topic where some 140 posts by believers have presented their arguments supported by scriptures. If you have something to add to the thread which presents new information, then by all means please proceed.

1 Th 5:21 has been the spirit of this forum where Bible Quotes have been provided and discussed. I am not concerned what you think of me, I am only concerned about Gods Word and His Truth...as you should, but resorting to disparaging remarks is unfruitful and unwise, and leads to ill feeling and malice.

I prefer a clean conscience religusnut.

By way of encouragement if you believe you can prove from the Bible that satan is a supernatural being, the next post be yours.

Alethos

Are angels supernatural beings?

 

[Alethos]

Are angels supernatural beings?

Yes.

Can Angels sin?

NO!!!!

God's divine law = the "wages of sin" is Death!

If angels sin then their wages is death.

Angels "cannot" die therefore they cannot sin or fall because they cannot choose evil although previously having a knowledge of it...like us when we are changed!

My reward is one of becoming immortal & eternal so that sin and death are abolished upon that change.
If you believe in the fallen angel your reward must be an immortal sinner?

Which makes no sense at all, and is not how the scriptures portray the Heavenly host. The Angels always obey Gods voice.

Like I have stated many times you need to find another way to event a supernatural being.

Do you believe the below verse to be true?

"Angels, that excel in strength, that do His commandments, hearkening unto the voice of His word" (Ps.103:20).

If you believe in fallen angels the above verse is a lie.

"The Lord hath prepared His throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all ( i.e. there can be no rebellion against God in Heaven). Bless the Lord, ye His Angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of His word. Bless ye the Lord, all ye His hosts; ye ministers of His, that do his pleasure" (Ps.103:19-21).

If you believe in fallen angels then the above verse is also a lie.

The Bible only ever portrays angels sharing Gods divine nature.

God and Angels cannot sin (they are perfect, pure and holy) Rom.9:14; Romans 6:23 cp. Ps.90:2; Mt.5:48 James 1:13

God cannot die He immortal (1 Tim.6:16) as are the angels

God is totally full of power and energy (Is.40:28).

This is the nature of God and the Angels, and which was given to Jesus after his resurrection
(Acts 13:34; Rev.1:18; Heb.1:3).

Do you believe Jesus can still be tempted with evil and sin?

I didn’t think so.

Therefore the nature being promised you Luke 20:35,36 2 Pet.1:4; Is.40:28, 31). Is one of absolute total perfection where you will only ever be able to do good...although you would have known evil during your mortal probation.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Can Angels sin?

NO!!!!

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

 

[Alethos]

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Religusnut,

This is what I was speaking about earlier, actually, its perfect timing that Ducky enter the scene. You see how he has posted 2 Peter 2:4 without any explanation or understanding of what the verse is speaking about.

Ducky could ask such questions as:

What is the context of this verse?
What is the chapter about?
What do the verse before and after tell us?
What does the word angels mean in this verse? And is it always speaking about the Angels in heaven?
What does hell mean?
Why "reserved" for judgement?

Ducky has proven he is not interested in the above questions? nor thier answers.

Are you religusnut? Do you have an open mind, one willing to learn?

Eagerly awaiting your response.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Ducky could ask such questions as:

What is the context of this verse?
What is the chapter about?
What do the verse before and after tell us?
What does the word angels mean in this verse? And is it always speaking about the Angels in heaven?
What does hell mean?
Why "reserved" for judgement?

Ducky has proven he is not interested in the above questions? nor thier answers.

Are you religusnut? Do you have an open mind, one willing to learn?

Eagerly awaiting your response.

Alethos

You said, "Can Angels sin?

NO!!!!"

God said: 2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)
[sup]4 [/sup]For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Whom should we believe? You or God?

 

[Alethos]

2 Peter 2:4 & Jude 6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

If you assume the angels spoken here are spiritual creatures we have some interesting questions to ask.

The Greek word "aggelos" translated "angel" means "messenger, agent" and is used of both human and divine messengers. It is used of humans in the following places: Matt. 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; Luke 9:52; and James 2:25.

Did you know this?

If you say they are spiritual angels then their evil power is restrained, because they are "reserved in everlasting chains"? All these so called fallen angels are chained and can do no more evil! They are in chains reserved for some future judgement.

Well that was easy!

Chained = powerless, imprisoned, waiting to be judged, can do no more harm etc.

No, the angels in this passage are human, not divine angels. This is easily proven by the following:

1. • "The wages of sin is death." (Rom. 6:23).
   • If divine angels were sinners, then they would die.
   • But Jesus said angels do not die. (Luke 20:36).
   • Therefore, the angels which sinned were human, not divine angels.

The scriptures cannot contradict itself – the answer is always present but one must look and ask the right questions, before one can be provided with the right answers.

Actually, you might go on to ask the question if not heavenly angels, then who?

Well, we have 250 princes of Israel's congregation who were led in rebellion by Korah, Dathan and Abiram. (Num 16).

They were "aggeloi" (angels) since they were assigned to "minister" to the congregation. (Num. 16:9).

Their "first estate" or "principality" (Jude 6 ) was that of "princes" or "leaders" R.S.V. (Num. 16:2).

They left this "former estate" when they sought to overtake the priesthood. (Num 16:10).

They were delivered into "chains of darkness" when they were swallowed alive by the earth. (Num. 16:31-33)

They were "sinners" in taking to themselves the priesthood. (Num. 16:10, 38).

The judgment is that which will be administered by Christ. (2 Tim. 4:1).

Surely makes more sense than the mystical notions of supernatural being tormenting souls in everlasting darkness.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

Surely makes more sense than the mystical notions of supernatural being tormenting souls in everlasting darkness.

Alethos

As I already pointed out, there will be MANY in the eternal Hell who don't believe in the eternal Hell.

2 Peter 2:4 & Jude 6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

If you assume the angels spoken here are spiritual creatures we have some interesting questions to ask.

The Greek word "aggelos" translated "angel" means "messenger, agent" and is used of both human and divine messengers. It is used of humans in the following places: Matt. 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; Luke 9:52; and James 2:25.

Did you know this?

If you say they are spiritual angels then their evil power is restrained, because they are "reserved in everlasting chains"? All these so called fallen angels are chained and can do no more evil! They are in chains reserved for some future judgement.

Well that was easy!

Chained = powerless, imprisoned, waiting to be judged, can do no more harm etc.

No, the angels in this passage are human, not divine angels. This is easily proven by the following:

1. • "The wages of sin is death." (Rom. 6:23).
   • If divine angels were sinners, then they would die.
   • But Jesus said angels do not die. (Luke 20:36).
   • Therefore, the angels which sinned were human, not divine angels.

The scriptures cannot contradict itself – the answer is always present but one must look and ask the right questions, before one can be provided with the right answers.

Actually, you might go on to ask the question if not heavenly angels, then who?

Well, we have 250 princes of Israel's congregation who were led in rebellion by Korah, Dathan and Abiram. (Num 16).

They were "aggeloi" (angels) since they were assigned to "minister" to the congregation. (Num. 16:9).

Their "first estate" or "principality" (Jude 6 ) was that of "princes" or "leaders" R.S.V. (Num. 16:2).

They left this "former estate" when they sought to overtake the priesthood. (Num 16:10). <A name=Return3>

They were delivered into "chains of darkness" when they were swallowed alive by the earth. (Num. 16:31-33)

They were "sinners" in taking to themselves the priesthood. (Num. 16:10, 38).

The judgment is that which will be administered by Christ. (2 Tim. 4:1).

Surely makes more sense than the mystical notions of supernatural being tormenting souls in everlasting darkness.

Alethos

I just checked 9 English translations and they all agree, ANGELS.

 

[Alethos]

As I already pointed out, there will be MANY in the eternal Hell who don't believe in the eternal Hell.




I just checked 9 English translations and they all agree, ANGELS.

Therefore "ALL" of your fallen angels are in Chains having no power to harm anyone or anything!

So Ducky what are you worried about? :huh:

 

[Duckybill]

Therefore "ALL" of your fallen angels are in Chains having no power to harm anyone or anything!

So Ducky what are you worried about? :huh:

"All" is your word. Who said I'm worried? You, Not me.

 

[Alethos]

"All" is your word. Who said I'm worried? You, Not me.

"angels which kept not their first estate"

So this is not plural? Is it only one Ducky? Angels infers many, how many Ducky? 3? 4? 5?
Ducky how were they chained?
What took place here Ducky that cuased your fallen angels to be locked up?
Why do they need judging?
What was thier first estate?
Where are we told in the Scriptures about this incident?

So many questions Ducky.

Alethos

 

[Duckybill]

"angels which kept not their first estate"

So this is not plural? Is it only one Ducky? Angels infers many, how many Ducky? 3? 4? 5?

You didn't say 'plural', you said "all". You are being deceptive.

 

[Alethos]

You didn't say 'plural', you said "all". You are being deceptive.

You believe the angels sinned, so this cannot be speaking to obediant angels.

To this you would agree.

Therefore, this verse must include "all" angels who sinned? And because its not singling out any one group, one can only conclude its speaking to all your angels which have sinned...becuase only they can be demons, right?

Plural = many
Many = all

Why because its all the angels which sinned are chained awaiting judgement.

What! Do you want to keep some who are not chained?

Alethos