Will Trump seek asylum in Israel and Build the 3rd Temple?

[Timtofly]

Huh? I'm not even sure what "resurrect a parable" means. Also, we were talking about the OT and the use of the word Sheol. This conversation started when I said : "Actually, in the OT they all went to the grave (sheol). In other words, they all died, and they "slept in the earth", without consciousness.". And now your response is to tell me to stop using OT quotes? We're literally talking about the OT, so I'm using the OT to prove my point. I'm going to assume, based on your response, that you have no counter point.

No, you wanted to know why the KJV translators used a word incorrectly in the OT. I pointed out the reason why, is in the NT.

If you don't like my point, that is fine.

 

[Freedm]

Grave is used for the wicked too.

Then why does the KJV use the word hell at all? Why don't they just translate it as the grave every single time? Obviously the translators had an agenda, to scare people into Christianity. It's deceptive.

 

[Freedm]

You are incorrect. Sheol can mean hell as in hades in the Greek.

Son 8:6 Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave (sheol): the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.

Deu_32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Psa_18:5 The sorrows of hell (sheol) compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

A place of sorrows and fire.

This matches Hell/Hades in the NT.

None of those examples say that sheol is a place of fire. Those verses are obviously using symbolic language to convey the sorrows of death. "Fire is kindled in mine anger". You think that's a literal fire? Obviously not, because where would this fire be, since "anger" is not a place, but an emotion.

And if Sheol were a place of fire, why would the righteous go there? They wouldn't, obviously. So none of this makes sense. You can't have one place that is sometimes a hole in the ground, and other times a fiery place of torment. It has to be one or the other.

 

[Freedm]

It's still happening. You implied it stopped but it hasn't.

Death has stopped, at least for the righteous. We no longer move from life to death, but instead from life to life.

When I leave this earth, the people staying behind will see a dead body, but that dead body will not be me, because I will have moved onto the next life, which they can not see. I will be elsewhere, still alive, but in a different form, so I will never be dead.

 

[Freedm]

No, you wanted to know why the KJV translators used a word incorrectly in the OT. I pointed out the reason why, is in the NT.

If you don't like my point, that is fine.

I don't get your point. Are you saying all the OT verses I posted as examples, were incorrectly translated? Are you saying all those people did not "sleep with their fathers"? Did they go to hell, or "Abrahams bosom"? Is that what you're saying?

 

[ewq1938]

None of those examples say that sheol is a place of fire. Those verses are obviously using symbolic language to convey the sorrows of death. "Fire is kindled in mine anger". You think that's a literal fire? Obviously not, because where would this fire be, since "anger" is not a place, but an emotion.

And if Sheol were a place of fire, why would the righteous go there? They wouldn't, obviously. So none of this makes sense. You can't have one place that is sometimes a hole in the ground, and other times a fiery place of torment. It has to be one or the other.

There isn't one sheol for all. One is unpleasant and does have fire, and one is nice and no torment. Jesus described these two places.

 

[ewq1938]

Death has stopped, at least for the righteous.

No, that is false. The first death is death of the body and all experience that.

 

[Freedm]

There isn't one sheol for all. One is unpleasant and does have fire, and one is nice and no torment. Jesus described these two places.

Where are you getting this from?

 

[Freedm]

No, that is false. The first death is death of the body and all experience that.

I used to think that too, but that would require us to actually experience death. I don't believe I will ever experience death. When I leave this life, I will instantly begin a new life. I will never actually be in a state of death. I will always be alive, either in this body or in a spiritual body.

EDIT: Let me clarify. This body will die, but I will never die. I am not this body. I am my consciousness. So in that sense, you might agree with me.

 

[ewq1938]

I used to think that too, but that would require us to actually experience death. I don't believe I will ever experience death.

You are confusing the two deaths.

Christians experience the first death but not the second death.

When you die you will be known as part of the "dead in Christ".

 

[Freedm]

You are confusing the two deaths.

Christians experience the first death but not the second death.

When you die you will be known as part of the "dead in Christ".

You might not have seen my edit on that post you responded to. To clarify, this body will die, but I will never die. I am not this body. I am my consciousness. So in that sense, you might agree with me.

When Paul spoke of the dead in Christ, he was speaking of those who were actually dead. Those are the saints who died before Christ took on their sins, so they had to actually go from life to death, and that's why they "slept with their fathers" in the earth. Their consciousness ceased. As King Solomon said "the dead know nothing" (Ecl 9:5). That is what it means to be dead; to know nothing, to have no consciousness. We will never experience that, but the dead in Christ did. Those dead have since been resurrected, and are alive again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You might not have seen my edit on that post you responded to. To clarify, this body will die, but I will never die. I am not this body. I am my consciousness. So in that sense, you might agree with me.

When Paul spoke of the dead in Christ, he was speaking of those who were actually dead. Those are the saints who died before Christ took on their sins, so they had to actually go from life to death, and that's why they "slept with their fathers" in the earth. Their consciousness ceased.

This is completely false. The dead in Christ include all who have physically/bodily died since the beginning of time and are in Christ. They will not be resurrected bodily until His future second coming (1 Thess 4:14-17). No saint who bodily died ever lost consciousness. That is not taught in scripture anywhere. Your doctrine would say that God was not the God of the dead in Christ because scripture teaches that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Clearly, any doctrine which indicates that God was not the dead of the dead in Christ for any period of time can't be taken seriously.

As King Solomon said "the dead know nothing" (Ecl 9:5). That is what it means to be dead; to know nothing, to have no consciousness. We will never experience that, but the dead in Christ did. Those dead have since been resurrected, and are alive again.

This is false teaching. You are making a doctrine out of one verse even though it contradicts many other verses. That is not a good idea. Again, you're making it as if God is not the God of the dead in Christ because He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. No saint ever lost consciousness. That is not taught anywhere in scripture. Scripture also does not teach that anyone in Christ has been bodily resurrected yet. That will not happen until His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17).

 

[ewq1938]

We will never experience that, but the dead in Christ did.

No. There are not two kinds of the dead in Christ. All saved Christians that die, did experience the first death, and are alive in a non-physical sense in heaven, fully conscious. The dead body in the grave knows nothing and of naturally not conscious.

 

[Freedm]

The dead in Christ include all who have physically/bodily died since the beginning of time and are in Christ. They will not be resurrected bodily until His future second coming (1 Thess 4:14-17).

You're assuming his coming is still future. That's why you're having such a hard time with this. Try to understand what I'm saying from the perspective that Jesus returned in 70 AD. It will make a lot more sense to you.

No saint who bodily died ever lost consciousness. That is not taught in scripture anywhere.

Huh? It's common sense. Do you think the dead still had consciousness in their graves? Yikes! That would've been torture, literally buried alive. Why would you think that? That's so bizarre.

Not only is your statement bizarre, but if that were true, then how would you define death? If the dead still have consciousness, then what is death in your opinion?

Your doctrine would say that God was not the God of the dead in Christ because scripture teaches that He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Clearly, any doctrine which indicates that God was not the dead of the dead in Christ for any period of time can't be taken seriously.

My doctrine does not say that at all.

This is false teaching. You are making a doctrine out of one verse even though it contradicts many other verses.

I quoted scripture. King solomon said "the dead know nothing", and you're telling me this is false teaching? It's a direct quote!

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Why would you claim this direct quote from the Bible is false teaching?

No saint ever lost consciousness.

Really? So all those saints who "slept with their fathers" were conscious in the grave? Again, this is a bizarre claim you're making. You're going to have to explain that.

That will not happen until His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:14-17).

Again, nothing I say will make sense to you, as long as you hold on to the false teaching that Christ's coming is still future.

 

[Freedm]

No. There are not two kinds of the dead in Christ. All saved Christians that die, did experience the first death, and are alive in a non-physical sense in heaven, fully conscious. The dead body in the grave knows nothing and of naturally not conscious.

I never said there are two kinds of the dead in Christ. Not sure where you got that from.

I think you're not fully grasping what I'm saying, probably because we are not agreeing on the definition of death, so let's start there. I define death as: The state of having no breath and no consciousness. So, with that definition in mind, I believe that before Christ took on our sins, people actually experienced death. They died and lost consciousness and "slept with their fathers". At that point, they did not go to heaven. They did not transform into a spiritual being. They just died. Nothing more. They literally died. They lost consciousness, they lost their breath, they knew nothing, and they were dead. D.E.A.D. dead! As dead as a door knob. In the same way a door knob has no life, people had no life. That is death.

Secondly, I believe that we, as believers, will no longer ever have to experience death because Jesus took away the sting of death for us. We will never ever be without breath and consciousness. We will always have life. We will never actually be dead, because we will move from this life straight into the next. We will move from these physical bodies, straight into spiritual bodies, and in that way, we will never experience the state of death.

So, only the saints who died before Christ, actually experienced death, and those were the dead in Christ. They have since been brought back to life, into spiritual bodies and are living happily ever after, and we will never experience death as they did, because we too will get spiritual bodies when we leave this life.

Hopefully that helps.

 

[ewq1938]

I never said there are two kinds of the dead in Christ. Not sure where you got that from.

I think you're not fully grasping what I'm saying, probably because we are not agreeing on the definition of death, so let's start there. I define death as: The state of having no breath and no consciousness. So, with that definition in mind, I believe that before Christ took on our sins, people actually experienced death. They died and lost consciousness and "slept with their fathers". At that point, they did not go to heaven. They did not transform into a spiritual being. They just died. Nothing more. They literally died. They lost consciousness, they lost their breath, they knew nothing, and they were dead. D.E.A.D. dead! As dead as a door knob. In the same way a door knob has no life, people had no life. That is death.

Secondly, I believe that we, as believers, will no longer ever have to experience death because Jesus took away the sting of death for us. We will never ever be without breath and consciousness. We will always have life. We will never actually be dead, because we will move from this life straight into the next. We will move from these physical bodies, straight into spiritual bodies, and in that way, we will never experience the state of death.

So, only the saints who died before Christ, actually experienced death, and those were the dead in Christ. They have since been brought back to life, into spiritual bodies and are living happily ever after, and we will never experience death as they did, because we too will get spiritual bodies when we leave this life.

Hopefully that helps.

You have expressed belief in full preterism and I believe that to be heresy, and unscriptural. I don't agree with most of what you have presented about death and the dead before and after the cross either.

 

[Freedm]

You have expressed belief in full preterism and I believe that to be heresy, and unscriptural. I don't agree with most of what you have presented about death and the dead before and after the cross either.

o.k. I believe futurism to be heresy and unscriptural, so here we are.

Regardless, I'm curious how you define death. Do you think being in heaven is being dead? Do you think the dead are conscious?

 

[ewq1938]

o.k. I believe futurism to be heresy and unscriptural, so here we are.

Regardless, I'm curious how you define death. Do you think being in heaven is being dead? Do you think the dead are conscious?

Post 353

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're assuming his coming is still future.

Because it is. Has He come in like manner from heaven as He left the earth yet (Acts 1:9-11)? Clearly not. You are deceived with your false full preterist beliefs.

That's why you're having such a hard time with this.

I'm not having a hard time with this at all.

Try to understand what I'm saying from the perspective that Jesus returned in 70 AD. It will make a lot more sense to you.

Why would I want to do something foolish like that when I know that He did not return in 70 AD? What makes complete sense to me is that you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Huh? It's common sense. Do you think the dead still had consciousness in their graves? Yikes! That would've been torture, literally buried alive. Why would you think that? That's so bizarre.

Are you kidding me here? Your beliefs are bizarre and utterly false. Do you not differentiate between people's bodies and their souls and spirits? Paul taught that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When a person dies physically, their souls and spirits go to heaven to be with the Lord and are conscious there. You apparently believe in the false doctrine of soul sleep. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. If those who are physically dead have no consciousness at all then God is not their God. Have you never even thought of that? Jesus talked with Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration even though they were physically dead. Why is it that you are not able to differentiate between the body and the soul and spirit?

Not only is your statement bizarre, but if that were true, then how would you define death? If the dead still have consciousness, then what is death in your opinion?

Let's be clear here. Your beliefs are the bizarre ones. Very bizarre. Complete nonsense. Death is not the complete absence of life or consciousness. It is a separation. In the case of physical death it is the separation of one's body from the soul and spirit. In the case of the second death, it will be a separation of unbelievers from the presence of the Lord and from His glory.

My doctrine does not say that at all.

It implies it. You say that when someone dies they are completely unconscious and not alive in any way, shape or form, right? At least you say that was the case regarding the dead in Christ. But, God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. So, if the dead in Christ were completely dead in every way then God would not be their God since He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

I quoted scripture. King solomon said "the dead know nothing", and you're telling me this is false teaching? It's a direct quote!

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Why would you claim this direct quote from the Bible is false teaching?

One verse! That's all you have in all of scripture to support your doctrine. That makes for a weak doctrine. And your interpretation contradicts many other scriptures as well. Do you not care whether or not you interpret this verse in a way that agrees with the rest of scripture?

Clearly, it's not a case where that verse is correct and all the others are being misinterpreted. It's a case where those other scriptures are correct and you are misinterpreting that verse.

Look at the verse more carefully in context.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The context has to do with the memory of the dead being forgotten and them no longer having the things they had when they were alive (love, hatred, envy, etc.). It's not saying the dead themselves are unconscious and know nothing, it's saying the dead are no longer known because they are forgotten. And it's saying they know longer have what they once knew when they were alive. That's it. It has nothing to do with them being unconscious.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This passage portrays dead believers in heaven as being conscious.

Really? So all those saints who "slept with their fathers" were conscious in the grave? Again, this is a bizarre claim you're making. You're going to have to explain that.

Conscious in the grave? What in the world? That's insane. Of course I'm not saying that. They were conscious in what Luke 16:19-31 calls Abraham's bosom. Their souls were conscious. Now, souls of the dead in Christ are conscious in heaven. Why is this something you can't understand? Talk about bizarre...

Again, nothing I say will make sense to you, as long as you hold on to the false teaching that Christ's coming is still future.

That is not false teaching. The teaching that He already returned is as false as anything can possibly be. It's heretical teaching. Terrible. You should be ashamed of yourself for believing such nonsense. Tell me where He is if He already returned then. Because scripture is very clear that He would return in the same manner that He left earth and He left earth visibly and bodily. So, again, tell me where He is.

 

[Freedm]

Post 353

Post 353, you said "No. There are not two kinds of the dead in Christ. All saved Christians that die, did experience the first death, and are alive in a non-physical sense in heaven, fully conscious. The dead body in the grave knows nothing and of naturally not conscious."

So, you're saying that to be dead, is to be alive in heaven, fully conscious. Interesting. Would you say a door knob is dead?