Will Trump seek asylum in Israel and Build the 3rd Temple?

[Freedm]

Paul taught that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. When a person dies physically, their souls and spirits go to heaven to be with the Lord and are conscious there.

What are you? Are you three parts? What if those three parts are separated? Which of the three are you?

 

[Freedm]

Death is not the complete absence of life or consciousness.

Death is not the complete absence of life? So you can be dead, while still being alive?

I'll give you a minute to think about that.

 

[Freedm]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The context has to do with the memory of the dead being forgotten and them no longer having the things they had when they were alive (love, hatred, envy, etc.). It's not saying the dead themselves are unconscious and know nothing, it's saying the dead are no longer known because they are forgotten. And it's saying they know longer have what they once knew when they were alive. That's it. It has nothing to do with them being unconscious.

The verse literally says "the dead know not any thing" and you're saying "it's not saying the dead themselves know nothing". You're straight up denying scripture.

I never thought I would see anybody go to this extreme to defend their doctrine. Usually people at least try to twist the meaning, or claim a bad translation, or something, but here you are. Straight up claiming that it doesn't say what it says. Fascinating.

 

[Freedm]

One verse! That's all you have in all of scripture to support your doctrine.

Actually, there are more.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

You see a pattern there? The dead know nothing. They lie prostrate. They praise not the Lord. They return to the dust. None of these things sound like living in heaven. When you go to heaven, do you know nothing? Do you lie prostrate? Do you not praise the Lord? Are you lying in the dust?

If you have to pretend these passages don't exist, or that they are not saying what they are saying, then you might have a problem with your doctrine.

 

[Freedm]

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

This passage portrays dead believers in heaven as being conscious.

You're using a symbolic vision as an example of reality. Symbolism is not reality.

Conscious in the grave? What in the world? That's insane. Of course I'm not saying that. They were conscious in what Luke 16:19-31 calls Abraham's bosom. Their souls were conscious. Now, souls of the dead in Christ are conscious in heaven. Why is this something you can't understand? Talk about bizarre...

You're using a parable as an example of reality. A parable is not reality.

All my examples speak of reality. Your examples do not.

 

[marks]

The verse literally says "the dead know not any thing" and you're saying "it's not saying the dead themselves know nothing". You're straight up denying scripture.

I never thought I would see anybody go to this extreme to defend their doctrine. Usually people at least try to twist the meaning, or claim a bad translation, or something, but here you are. Straight up claiming that it doesn't say what it says. Fascinating.

Remember the context of this little book, Solomon is writing of what is "under the sun", that is, the earthly life of the human. He speaks of human perspective and human perception, human understandings. I'm not saying that's all that's in this book, but that's the context.

Jesus put this to rest in saying pointing out that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, affirming that they yet lived, as God is the God of the living, not the dead.

So Solomon is speaking there of the human experience in this world. As I see it.

Much love!

@Spiritual Israelite I think we are in agreement on this point?

 

[ewq1938]

So, you're saying that to be dead, is to be alive in heaven, fully conscious. Interesting.

The bible is interesting.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, there are more.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

You see a pattern there? The dead know nothing. They lie prostrate.

You are confusing things.

The dead can be a reference to two different things.

1. the dead body

OR

2. the person (soul and spirit) that used to be in that body.

"The dead know nothing. They lie prostrate. " applies to number 1 only. It doesn't apply to the dead of number 2.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What are you? Are you three parts? What if those three parts are separated? Which of the three are you?

We all have a body, soul and spirit. Why is that hard for you to understand?

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

When Jesus returns our bodies will be changed to be immortal (1 Cor 15:51-52) and will be united with our souls and spirit. I don't know why you think that a person can't be alive apart from their body. There is more to us than just our bodies. That's why Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. He knew that his soul and spirit would go to be with the Lord in heaven when he physically/bodily died.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The verse literally says "the dead know not any thing" and you're saying "it's not saying the dead themselves know nothing". You're straight up denying scripture.

You're straight up not using any spiritual discernment and not looking at context. You need to ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7). Your doctrine contradicts many verses in scripture.

I never thought I would see anybody go to this extreme to defend their doctrine. Usually people at least try to twist the meaning, or claim a bad translation, or something, but here you are. Straight up claiming that it doesn't say what it says. Fascinating.

That is a ridiculous response. You need to understand what it's saying. To say it just means what it says shows that you don't use any discernment at all when interpreting scripture and you don't look at context. You are acting as if interpreting scripture is no different than reading a magazine or the newspaper. Your hyper-literal approach results in your interpreting a verse in such a way that contradicts many other verses. Do you care about that? Apparently not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Remember the context of this little book, Solomon is writing of what is "under the sun", that is, the earthly life of the human. He speaks of human perspective and human perception, human understandings. I'm not saying that's all that's in this book, but that's the context.

Jesus put this to rest in saying pointing out that God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, affirming that they yet lived, as God is the God of the living, not the dead.

So Solomon is speaking there of the human experience in this world. As I see it.

Much love!

@Spiritual Israelite I think we are in agreement on this point?

Yes. Amazingly, we do actually agree on something.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're using a symbolic vision as an example of reality. Symbolism is not reality.

That's a copout on your part. When your view gets refuted, you resort to this kind of nonsense. While there may be symbolism being used there, it clearly implies that the souls of those who are bodily dead are conscious in heaven. You can't just disregard the passage altogether just because it contains some symbolism. That's ridiculous.

You're using a parable as an example of reality. A parable is not reality.

All my examples speak of reality. Your examples do not.

The book of Revelation and parables represent reality! It's shameful for you to try to disregard those passages. Luke 16:19-31 refers to Abraham. Is he not real? You can't just disregard the book of Revelation and parables altogether just because they are not literal text. They teach real truth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, there are more.

Genesis 3:19
By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

Job 7:21
Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

Job 14:10:12
But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 146:4
When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

You see a pattern there? The dead know nothing. They lie prostrate. They praise not the Lord. They return to the dust. None of these things sound like living in heaven. When you go to heaven, do you know nothing? Do you lie prostrate? Do you not praise the Lord? Are you lying in the dust?

If you have to pretend these passages don't exist, or that they are not saying what they are saying, then you might have a problem with your doctrine.

That's talking about people's bodies, not their souls and spirits. Until you come to understand that there is more to people than just their bodies, you are not going to get it. I can tell that you rely completely on your own intellect to try to understand scripture and don't try to rely on the Holy Spirit at all. That's a terrible approach to interpreting scripture. Ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

Do you understand that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living? Do you understand that your doctrine makes it so that God is not the God of the dead in Christ in that case since you think they are completely dead in every way? God has always been the God of the dead in Christ even when they died. But, your doctrine says otherwise. That shows that your doctrine can't be taken seriously becuase God never stops being the God of believers who die physically. The reason for that is that their souls and spirits do not die, but go to be in heaven.

When Jesus died He said "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" and just before that He said to the thief on the cross "Today, you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43-46). Clearly, Jesus was not saying He would be with him in paradise bodily, so He was clearly saying He would be with him there spiritually. I don't know why it is that you can't differentiate between the body, soul and spirit, but you should be able to do that. Ask God to help you do that so you stop believing in your false doctrines.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Death is not the complete absence of life? So you can be dead, while still being alive?

I'll give you a minute to think about that.

You're the one who needs to think about this. When a person dies it's just their body that dies, not their soul and spirit. Their body has no life at that point, but their soul and spirit does. Scripture portrays bodily dead people as being conscious after their bodily death. Revelation 6:9-11 is an example of that whether you acknowledge it or not. Also, Jesus talked to Moses and Elijah at His transfiguration. How was that possible if they and the rest of those who died in OT times were completely unconscious at that time as you believe?

 

[Timtofly]

I don't get your point. Are you saying all the OT verses I posted as examples, were incorrectly translated? Are you saying all those people did not "sleep with their fathers"? Did they go to hell, or "Abrahams bosom"? Is that what you're saying?

Yes. Jesus pointed out that the redeemed waited in Abraham's bosom. The unredeemed wait still in the torments of sheol. You don't bury the soul in the grave. God places the soul in sheol, just like He placed the soul in Abraham's bosom.

Yes, the soul goes to a different place as you state. Why do you take issue with the fact sheol was created for Satan and his angels, but now also is the place of torment for souls who follow after Satan?

Now the souls of the redeemed all have permanent incorruptible physical bodies in Paradise. The Lamb is in the midst of them, and they serve God day and night in the heavenly temple. Hebrews 11:12-16

"Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

It was called Abraham's bosom, because they were the offspring of Abraham. Although others not from Abraham were still redeemed and had faith in God. When they left Abraham's bosom and ascended to Paradise that was the country and city they were waiting for. At the Second Coming they will be raptured, caught up from Paradise the same as those alive on the earth, and we will all meet in the air between the two locations.

 

[Brakelite]

2 Thessalonians 2
[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin [the anti-christ] be revealed, the son of perdition;
[4] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Whatever literal temple might or might not be built in Jerusalem, will never, ever, be the temple of God, which is what Paul is talking about in Thessalonians. The only temple of God is His church. And the Antichrist is already in that temple, receiving standing ovations and hearty hurrahs from all quarters.
If Trump does emigrate and is accepted into Jewish society, which I would imagine at the moment is quite possible, and if as a wealthy man and supporter of Israel (just as the Rothschilds and Rockefellers and other godless elites were at the beginning of last century), and Trump actually got the temple built, I would suggest that then, in context of Trump being the Messiah for so many modern political oriented American Christian nationalists, it could be dubbed the temple of god.

 

[Brakelite]

What about this verse? It looks like the Antichrist will go into the Temple of God. What Temple would this be?

2 Thes 2
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The church.

 

[Timtofly]

That's a copout on your part. When your view gets refuted, you resort to this kind of nonsense. While there may be symbolism being used there, it clearly implies that the souls of those who are bodily dead are conscious in heaven. You can't just disregard the passage altogether just because it contains some symbolism. That's ridiculous.

Yet you only offer a cop out, and interpret that verse hyper literally yourself. You are blind to the fact they also have a physical body already, because of your one verse doctrine that there is only one future resurrection.

We don't need a Preterist second coming to explain that. And we don't need an Amil single future resurrection false doctrine either.

The first resurrection happened to Lazarus. The first resurrection happened to all in Abraham's bosom at the Cross. There is a clear non symbolic record of both Lazarus and the entire OT coming out of their graves. Graves meaning death, to enter eternal life in a permanent incorruptible physical body. That is the first resurrection. Resurrection is tied to the power of Jesus Christ being the Resurrection and the Life. The first resurrection is not tied solely to a second coming event. Not in the book of John. Not in the book of Revelation. Not even in Daniel as Daniel sees the first coming and second coming as a single event. The mystery still being the fulness of the Gentiles, which has separated the first coming and the second coming going on almost 1994 years. The Cross was the last day resurrection for the OT economy.

You accept they are no longer in Abraham's bosom. But the only reason they were not souls in Paradise was the physical body aspect of redemption. Until Jesus came in the physical, the physical was withheld. But now that we have the physical manifestation of God, God opened Paradise as a physical place for physical bodies. All that morbid death talk of the OT writers was literally put to rest. Now we are the living, and no longer die nor taste death. This dead body called mortal is as close to death as we will ever be.

The only dead in Christ are those still in Adam's dead corruptible flesh alive on the earth. God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. The verse in Revelation 6 does not mean they just then put on their bodies, either. They do put on something, just as Paul describes at the Second Coming. John is the heavenly perspective. Paul is from the perspective of those alive on the earth. Those souls on the earth have to put on both a physical body, and their spirit. Those souls in Paradise only put on the spirit, a robe of white.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Well, where do you think we would be if Hillary had won. And don't believe for a second that they wanted that wall built or the USA being energy independent. Or Nafta trade agreement changed, Or what he did with Nato, or Pulling out of the Iran deal or changing the trade agreement with China. Or moving the capital of Israel to Jerusalem. Or the tax cuts for Americans. Or manufacturing jobs being brought back to this country, or changes to the steel industry, or replenishing strategic oil reserves (which have been depleted), or got drug prices lowered, or got people working and had the best unemployment rate for blacks. I'm going to bed because I could be up all-night listing what he has done. You are UNINFORMED and CLUELESS.

The point is, Hillary didn't "win" because that wasn't the plan of the cult. They wanted Trump and that's who we got. Your "vote" didn't decide that. They'll put in whoever they need to take the next steps toward their ultimate goal.

 

[TLHKAJ]

The church.

Yes, we are the temple.

But actually, they have been holding rituals/sacrifices for a long time under the Temple Mount and they are close to being able to rebuild the aboveground 3rd temple.