Will you be caught up in the rapture or left-behind??

[face2face]

Satan is not in control of human government. He never has been.

If you knew the correct meaning of the word satan you would actually be wrong as all governments stand in opposition to God.

 

[Timtofly]

If you knew the correct meaning of the word satan you would actually be wrong as all governments stand in opposition to God.

That is because of Adam, not because of Satan. You seem to be removing Adam's part of disobedience, and giving it all to Satan.

 

[David in NJ]

That is not even the correct history. And you said to leave history out and go only with God's Word.

I read God's Word. If you think I am wrong, then you think God's Word is wrong. You are going by what humans have taught, so not sure why you are complaining about some human teaching me the wrong thing.

You don't even think God's Word is grammatically correct, and have changed Daniel 9 to make it say what you believe.

Satan is not in control of human government. He never has been. Not sure how you can manipulate symbolism and declare what you think as a literal fact. Satan may have been more out in the open and worshipped by people in the past, but certainly was not the ruler according to the book of Daniel. None of the kingdoms in Daniel were under the leadership of Satan. Satan had spiritual power over death and claimed bodies and souls as belonging to his domain called sheol. Even those of faith from the OT were captives in Satan's domain after physical death. You probably think they are still held as captives until the Second Coming.

You are the one who keeps saying I am wrong. I am just pointing out what the Bible says.

@Timtofly says: "Satan is not in control of human government. He never has been"

Come-on Tim, get in your Bible and READ = satan is called the "god of this world/age" and "the deceiver of the nations"

"Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

 

[rebuilder 454]

I'd rather be "left behind!" Clearly, I don't believe in a Pretribulation Rapture!

No doubt heaven will honor your refusal to be counted with the wise virgins.
SMH

 

[David in NJ]

No doubt heaven will honor your refusal to be counted with the wise virgins.
SMH

i would take the 442 over the 454

Fastest production car made was the 1970 Dodge Charger

My 'BEAUTY' is the 1970 GTO

 

[Randy Kluth]

No doubt heaven will honor your refusal to be counted with the wise virgins.
SMH

My trust is not in the doctrines of men, but in the word of Christ, who has promised salvation to all who believe, and who follow him with a true heart. And I do. Threatening the loss of salvation for those who disagree with you shows the poverty of your doctrine.

 

[rebuilder 454]

My trust is not in the doctrines of men, but in the word of Christ, who has promised salvation to all who believe, and who follow him with a true heart. And I do. Threatening the loss of salvation for those who disagree with you shows the poverty of your doctrine.

You are close, but miss the picture.
The 5 folishish virgins, where YOU placed yourself, not me, are saved.
Just as saved as the wise.
I only report what is there.
I will leave it to others to confuse the foolish virgins as unsaved.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You are close, but miss the picture.
The 5 folishish virgins, where YOU placed yourself, not me, are saved.
Just as saved as the wise.
I only report what is there.
I will leave it to others to confuse the foolish virgins as unsaved.

Let me be perfectly blunt with you. I did not place myself in *your scenario* about the 10 Virgins. I see the 10 Virgins in the way I explained it. I do not accept any Pretrib scenario imposed upon the 10 Virgins parable.

I gave you my explanation, and am perfectly happy to place myself there, with the "Wise Virgins." But as I told you, I think that at the time Jesus was speaking to Israel--not to me.

We may apply it in a similar way to ourselves, but it was given to Israel, who remained "virgins." Today, we're "married" to Christ, and do not have to await our salvation. We already have it.

More is coming when Christ returns, and we are married to Christ in a glorified state. I consider that today we can be already married to Christ, and be more fully married to Christ in the future, when he comes to glorify us. This is actually a celebration of the preceding marriage.

For the Jewish Nation, as a whole, it will be, I believe, a brand new marriage under the New Covenant. Up until now, a remnant of the Jewish People have gotten saved through Christ. But a time is coming, I believe, when the entire nation will be restored to covenant relationship with God, through Christ. And that will be their "marriage."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't reject the historical record. In 66AD, Cestius Gallus brought in an army from Syria and that is when they fled per the warning of Jesus in Luke 21.

The Jews defeated that army. Then in 67 General Vespasian brought an army and took several cities, but did not make it to Jerusalem, because that is when word came that Nero was dead. Then Rome went through a few Emperors, because of all the civil unrest in the Empire, so the revolt against Rome by the Jews was not the only issue going on. When Titus finally surrounded Jerusalem in the spring of 70AD, no one was able to flee, because they all just arrived for the Passover. Not something the Christians would have returned for. The Jews prevented people from leaving and the infighting of the Jews, caused as much death in the besieged city as when the walls finally fell. So it was the Jews, the people of Jesus who is the Prince to come, who literally brought on death and destruction to themselves, because all the factions who revolted against the Romans turned against each other as well. They paid for the blood of Jesus on the hands of their forefathers.

Matthew 27:24-25

"When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it. Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children."

Titus was there in 66. when the Jews defeated the first encirclement of Jerusalem and Vespasian left to be crowned cesar- that is when the believers left.

It was not the Jews who refused to let fellow Jews leave Jerusalem. The Romans allowed all pilgrims to enter for the Passover, but they would not let them leace. It was to cause the food supply to dwindle and weaken the Jewish resistance.

 

[Timtofly]

@Timtofly says: "Satan is not in control of human government. He never has been"

Come-on Tim, get in your Bible and READ = satan is called the "god of this world/age" and "the deceiver of the nations"

"Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

Do you know the exact percentage of humans throughout history who worshipped Satan?

Satan may have a lot of titles, but humans have been the dictators of human government. Not once has Satan been called king of any empire or kingdom. Satan has not had full authority. Jesus is also Lord of this world. But to have total authority, where every human is submitted to that authority, not yet a reality.

Satan can promise the world, but that is rhetoric. You think God would let Satan kill a bunch of human kings, so Jesus could be named king? For Satan's lies and deception to work in this scenario: “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”, Satan would actually have to have such authority in the first place. Just because Satan offered something, does not mean Satan had total authority. Besides the statement was an oxymoron. Satan had no authority to even receive worship, which means that he had nothing to offer. If Satan had full authority, Jesus would already be worshipping, not being tempted to worship, by some gift in exchange. The answer being:

"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Jesus already had that authority. He did not need Satan to give such authority to Him. What Satan was may have included the spiritual authority in that all the wicked were under the bondage of sin and death. But Satan has never had 100% authority to govern humanity on the same level as Jesus as Lord.

What Satan was literally asking Jesus was a demand to place Satan in charge, and Jesus could be his human representation. That is implied in the answer Jesus gave. Jesus told us who had that authority to grant human government to Jesus. It was certainly not Satan.

 

[Timtofly]

Let me be perfectly blunt with you. I did not place myself in *your scenario* about the 10 Virgins. I see the 10 Virgins in the way I explained it. I do not accept any Pretrib scenario imposed upon the 10 Virgins parable.

I gave you my explanation, and am perfectly happy to place myself there, with the "Wise Virgins." But as I told you, I think that at the time Jesus was speaking to Israel--not to me.

We may apply it in a similar way to ourselves, but it was given to Israel, who remained "virgins." Today, we're "married" to Christ, and do not have to await our salvation. We already have it.

More is coming when Christ returns, and we are married to Christ in a glorified state. I consider that today we can be already married to Christ, and be more fully married to Christ in the future, when he comes to glorify us. This is actually a celebration of the preceding marriage.

For the Jewish Nation, as a whole, it will be, I believe, a brand new marriage under the New Covenant. Up until now, a remnant of the Jewish People have gotten saved through Christ. But a time is coming, I believe, when the entire nation will be restored to covenant relationship with God, through Christ. And that will be their "marriage."

How can one rely on symbolism as if it were reality?

Are you saying Israel was never the wife in this symbolism presented throughout Scripture?

If Israel was never the wife, then neither will the church be.

That is the point. If these are virgins they are not past Israel nor future church. As virgins they are only betrothed, not wives yet. At least get the symbolism correct, no?

These are representations of the moment of the Second Coming. You have to leave before the trib, because the foolish ones are redeemed during the trib. You are missing the point of the whole chapter. The wise virgins are not even the sheep. But at the time of the Olivet Discourse, no one even understand the part about the oil. People still don't get Matthew 25. Jesus is on the earth during the trib. The angels are on the earth during the trib. All this wedding symbolism is just a guide, not a literal wedding and brides and wives.

The wife Israel, has already been in Paradise since the Cross. The church as a wife is still a bride coming down as the New Jerusalem which includes the wife Israel, and the church without a distinction between Israel (wife) and the Gentile church (bride). The ten virgins are still that, virgins in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Five have the Holy Spirit, five did not. Those claiming to stay on earth, cannot be the wise one's. That is physically and spiritually impossible. The church with the Holy Spirit cannot stay on the earth, after Jesus and the angels come to the earth. Not even those foolish ones redeemed, as the sheep, stay on the earth. They are kept in safety on the sea of glass. No souls remain on the earth, after judgment. The part about the final harvest is that all are accounted for and sent to the LOF or eternal life. Those who physically die, are placed in Death, and Death is introduced in the 4th Seal.

Why any one thinks they live on until the battle of Armageddon certainly contradicts other Scripture. The only humans alive at Armageddon are those with the mark. They are not in the Lamb's book of life, so can never be redeemed, once removed. The foolish virgins are in the Lamb's book of life. They just need to be redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. But they certainly don't receive the second birth. They are not the church. They live on the earth with Christ for the 1,000 years. Those who deny the Day of the Lord, deny that one group lives forever on the earth, and the church lives forever in Paradise. The New Jerusalem is the church returning to earth, after the Day of the Lord.

So those post trib people live on the earth, and never enter Paradise. They don't go to the LOF. They are not the bride, nor the wife. And those who claim the church is on the earth during the Day of the Lord are also wrong. The church remains in Paradise until the New Jerusalem in the NHNE. So, sure if you want to inherit part of the earth, then you will have to take your chances that you are not deceived by Satan and hope to get picked by Jesus as a sheep or wheat instead of goats or tares. And God forbid, you physically die. And then after the 7th Trumpet, the choice will be to take the mark or chop off the head to avoid the mark. That is if Satan is even allowed 42 months. No one should plan on being beheaded. That would really be a true foolish virgin. Yet that is the view of post trib.

God has offered several ways to avoid the tribulation, and post trib people seem determined to wait and take their chances until the very end. Do people not take to heart the words Jesus spoke: Matthew 20:14-16?

"Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

At the time of the Second Coming, the church is the last. They will receive the same reward as faithful Israel since Egypt. Currently there is no difference between Israel and Gentile. But that does not rule out Faithful Israel to whom blindness in part was given, until the fulness of the Gentiles. They are the first, but will be the last. But the warning is the fewer will be chosen at the very end. The church has to be removed first, according to Jesus. Then it will be Jesus who chooses the last from among those left on earth. The first, faithful Israel as restored Israel will be last along with some wheat also chosen by Jesus per Matthew 13:36-43. Egypt was first even before Israel. Some of every nation will be chosen, because nations were established first even before Israel.

 

[David in NJ]

Do you know the exact percentage of humans throughout history who worshipped Satan?

Satan may have a lot of titles, but humans have been the dictators of human government. Not once has Satan been called king of any empire or kingdom. Satan has not had full authority. Jesus is also Lord of this world. But to have total authority, where every human is submitted to that authority, not yet a reality.

Satan can promise the world, but that is rhetoric. You think God would let Satan kill a bunch of human kings, so Jesus could be named king? For Satan's lies and deception to work in this scenario: “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”, Satan would actually have to have such authority in the first place. Just because Satan offered something, does not mean Satan had total authority. Besides the statement was an oxymoron. Satan had no authority to even receive worship, which means that he had nothing to offer. If Satan had full authority, Jesus would already be worshipping, not being tempted to worship, by some gift in exchange. The answer being:

"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

Jesus already had that authority. He did not need Satan to give such authority to Him. What Satan was may have included the spiritual authority in that all the wicked were under the bondage of sin and death. But Satan has never had 100% authority to govern humanity on the same level as Jesus as Lord.

What Satan was literally asking Jesus was a demand to place Satan in charge, and Jesus could be his human representation. That is implied in the answer Jesus gave. Jesus told us who had that authority to grant human government to Jesus. It was certainly not Satan.

Ezekiel ch28
The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2“Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“Because your heart is lifted[a] up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god,
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
3(Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!
There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
4With your wisdom and your understanding
You have gained riches for yourself,
And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
5By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,
And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),”

6‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

9“Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
10You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’ ”

Lamentation for the King of Tyre​

11Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12“Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16“By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

17“Your heart was https://biblehub.com/nkjv/ezekiel/28.htm#footnoteslifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

18“You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

 

[Timtofly]

Titus was there in 66. when the Jews defeated the first encirclement of Jerusalem and Vespasian left to be crowned cesar- that is when the believers left.

It was not the Jews who refused to let fellow Jews leave Jerusalem. The Romans allowed all pilgrims to enter for the Passover, but they would not let them leace. It was to cause the food supply to dwindle and weaken the Jewish resistance.

Once again not correct history. Vespasian was not even there in 66. In 66, the Syrian governor Cestius Gallus was sent into Israel. Even King Agrippa sent 14,000 troops to stop the revolt. That was when people fled the area, per the warnings of Jesus. No one was to return. Nero sent Vespasian in 67. Titus met Vespasian a little later that year.

The whole point is that Jews from all over the empire in the tens of thousands refused to head the warning signs. What foolish decisions to enter a city that was under a Roman beseige.

Of course they would not be let out. Even the foolish Jews destroyed most of the food to ensure certain death by starvation.

No one claims they fled after 66. Do you not understand that in 67, the Romans started to kill the Jews and take over as many cities as they could? The Romans were only defeated in 66. That was when people fled. Once Nero sent Vespasian in 67, there was no fleeing. The only reason the war had a quiet period was because of civil unrest in the Empire itself. There were 4 emperors in one year. Vespasian himself left to be emperor in 69. That is why Titus was alone in Palestine in 70AD. Vespasian was going to finish what he started in that campaign, so he left Titus to finish the job. It was clear, Vespasian wanted no revolt going on if emperor.

Not to mention that war refugees themselves thought Jerusalem was safe. They fled to Jerusalem, not away from Jerusalem. If Nero had lived a few more years, Vespasian would have been the one to get the credit of destroying Jerusalem.

 

[Timtofly]

Ezekiel ch28
The word of the Lord came to me again, saying, 2“Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“Because your heart is lifted[a] up,
And you say, ‘I am a god,
I sit in the seat of gods,
In the midst of the seas,’
Yet you are a man, and not a god,
Though you set your heart as the heart of a god
3(Behold, you are wiser than Daniel!
There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
4With your wisdom and your understanding
You have gained riches for yourself,
And gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
5By your great wisdom in trade you have increased your riches,
And your heart is lifted up because of your riches),”

6‘Therefore thus says the Lord God:

“Because you have set your heart as the heart of a god,
7Behold, therefore, I will bring strangers against you,
The most terrible of the nations;
And they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom,
And defile your splendor.
8They shall throw you down into the Pit,
And you shall die the death of the slain
In the midst of the seas.

9“Will you still say before him who slays you,
‘I am a god’?
But you shall be a man, and not a god,
In the hand of him who slays you.
10You shall die the death of the uncircumcised
By the hand of aliens;
For I have spoken,” says the Lord God.’ ”

Lamentation for the King of Tyre​

11Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12“Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

14“You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
15You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
Till iniquity was found in you.

16“By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.

17“Your heart was Ezekiel 28 NKJVlifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you.

18“You defiled your sanctuaries
By the multitude of your iniquities,
By the iniquity of your trading;
Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
It devoured you,
And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
In the sight of all who saw you.
19All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
You have become a horror,
And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

You forgot one: Revelation 2:12-13

"And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth."

Technically a city is not a nation, empire, nor kingdom. Yes, several ancient cultures had city states.

A city-state is an independent, self-governing country contained totally within the borders of a single city. The ancient empires of Rome, Carthage, Athens, and Sparta are considered early examples of city-states. Once numerous, today there are few true city-states.

The most notable one in Scripture would be Nineveh. It actually took 3 days to walk from one border of the city to the other border.

Even Rome was a city state. Julius Ceasar declared the city the capital of his own empire, where he wanted control over more territory, than a single city. Now the Vatican is the city state in Rome. Satan could not even offer Jesus every city-state on earth at that time, even if you accept Satan had control of a few of them. Did I claim no one worshipped Satan? No. Satan was given some authority by humans themselves otherwise He would have not been mentioned as King of Tyre. God does not seem to be the one who granted Satan such authority. The answer is still the one Jesus gave:

"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

To claim anything else is to deny the Lordship of God. Do you not understand that at the 7th Trumpet, God is going to grant Satan this authority over the earth? For 42 months, Satan will get exactly what he has wanted since the beginning in Genesis 2.

Revelation 13 is all about God allowing Satan total access. More so than allowed in Job. The point about Satan being the goodman or strongman was about the spiritual realm, as that is where demons reside. Paul pointed out it was not against flesh and blood. Human kings while having authority and perhaps even worship are neutral in how much power and authority they have. The one with the largest loyal army or the smallest best army, like Israel were the ones remaining with such acquired authority. It was not that Satan had authority. It was more that Satan was the being on earth with the ability to thwart the work of salvation the most. Scripture indicates that Satan had authority in spiritual matters. That is also part of Paul's point; against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Spiritual darkness in high places is not the same as having full governmental authority according to flesh and bone. God has never let Satan call all the shots on a national level. Saying that Satan was bound when it comes to demonic forces is not the same as calling Satan the one in authority over human government.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Once again not correct history. Vespasian was not even there in 66. In 66, the Syrian governor Cestius Gallus was sent into Israel. Even King Agrippa sent 14,000 troops to stop the revolt. That was when people fled the area, per the warnings of Jesus. No one was to return. Nero sent Vespasian in 67. Titus met Vespasian a little later that year.

Vespasian left Israel in 69 to become Cesar. Sorry if I answereed in a muddled way.

but I think we have beatenthis dead horse enough.

I know Titus was there in 66 AD when the first rebellion took place and Rome began to besiege the city.