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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Yeshua said the Mosaic Law would not change until all things were fulfilled.
And He was right, the Mosaic Law for the most part is still in effect for those of the Old Covenant....namely the Jews.
Christians are of the New Covenant and you do not want to practice Christianity like you would Judaism or mix them. The scriptures never put a moratorium on polygamy or concubinage or slavery. But as a Christian you should have none of that. You should not take multiple wives or sell your daughters as sex slaves or buy a concubine or have slaves. The scriptures do not say you have to have a marriage ceremony to be married, but as a Christian you should have a marriage ceremony. Christians should not sacrifice animals. The Mosaic Laws-Old Testament Laws do not apply to Christians and nor do the dietary restrictions, and the letter of divorcement means nothing. Christians do not observe the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, they worship on the Lord's Day on Sunday. An eye for an eye, tooth for tooth does not apply to Christians, instead love one another and forgive one another if you expect to be forgiven. The Jews were not offered Heaven as a reward, but salvation and Heaven are ours.
The parable of the old and new wineskins illustrate that the beliefs and practices of Judaism and Christianity should not be mixed, or you harm or violate both.
And He was right, the Mosaic Law for the most part is still in effect for those of the Old Covenant....namely the Jews.
Christians are of the New Covenant and you do not want to practice Christianity like you would Judaism or mix them. The scriptures never put a moratorium on polygamy or concubinage or slavery. But as a Christian you should have none of that. You should not take multiple wives or sell your daughters as sex slaves or buy a concubine or have slaves. The scriptures do not say you have to have a marriage ceremony to be married, but as a Christian you should have a marriage ceremony. Christians should not sacrifice animals. The Mosaic Laws-Old Testament Laws do not apply to Christians and nor do the dietary restrictions, and the letter of divorcement means nothing. Christians do not observe the Jewish Saturday Sabbath, they worship on the Lord's Day on Sunday. An eye for an eye, tooth for tooth does not apply to Christians, instead love one another and forgive one another if you expect to be forgiven. The Jews were not offered Heaven as a reward, but salvation and Heaven are ours.
The parable of the old and new wineskins illustrate that the beliefs and practices of Judaism and Christianity should not be mixed, or you harm or violate both.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
So, you are saying because you were born, you are saved and going to heaver? Lets be clear when Yeshua died on the cross, He fulfilled all the law and prophets, just like Yeshua said. Tell me, what do you believe happened at Pentecost, 2000 yrs ago?
Shalom aleichem
What the first guy was saying
The first guy was making a very standard dispensational / evangelical distinction:- Mosaic Law = for Jews under the Old Covenant
- New Covenant = for Christians
- Therefore Christians shouldn’t mix Judaism and Christianity
- The wineskins parable = don’t mix the two systems
- He listed examples (polygamy, concubines, slavery, sacrifices, Sabbath, etc.) to show that Christians operate under a different covenantal framework.
He wasn’t talking about salvation by birth. He was talking about covenant identity.
Why the second guy reacted the way he did
The second guy misread the first guy’s point and jumped to a conclusion that wasn’t actually being argued.He thought the first guy was saying:
- “Jews are saved because they’re born Jews.”
- “Christians are saved because they’re born under the New Covenant.”
- “So you’re saying because you were born, you’re saved?”
- “Let’s be clear — Yeshua fulfilled the Law.”
- “What do you think happened at Pentecost?”
“Salvation isn’t by birth — it’s by Christ’s fulfillment and the Spirit given at Pentecost.”
He wasn’t actually addressing the first guy’s argument about covenant distinctions. He was addressing a different theological issue: salvation by birth vs salvation by faith.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
I would think by now you would know me enough to know that I do not believe in Universalism, OSAS, or Calvinism.
And if Yeshua, if Yeshua would have told the Jews He was there to save them, they would have replied, save us from what?
The Jews were expecting a human Messiah that would be a warrior king that would take out their oppressors and put them in power and animal sacrifices and the Mosaic Law would go on forever. They knew nothing about being saved from Hell or Heaven as a destination. They definitely did not believe the Messiah would die and have a second coming. The Jews waited over 700 years for the Messiah, and if the prophecies told them that they would be responsible for the Messiah's death......that would have been a horror for them and they would have ran for hills.....Kill the Son of Yahweh! What would they have to look forward to.....the wrath of Yahweh?
Yeshua's death on the cross was likely the plan. But finding a prophecy in the OT that clearly states that the Jews will be responsible for killing their Messiah is not there.
Tell me, what do you believe happened at Pentecost, 2000 yrs ago?
Well both of us have read what happened at Pentecost. I have nothing to add to that.
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Absolutely — there is an Old Testament prophecy that speaks directly to what he’s talking about: Israel being involved in the suffering and death of the Messiah, even if they didn’t understand it or expect it.
And the irony is… the prophecy is extremely clear once you stop reading it through modern filters.
Here are the key passages.
This doesn’t say “Rome will kill Him.” It says He suffers because of Israel’s sin, and the context is Israel rejecting Him.
Isaiah 53 is the prophecy that the early church used constantly to explain:
This is exactly the horror the guy is describing — the idea that Israel would be responsible for the death of the Messiah.
Who wagged their heads? Israel’s crowds.
Who said “Let God deliver Him”? Israel’s priests.
Psalm 22 is a prophecy of:
Daniel doesn’t name Israel directly, but the context is:
Not in the modern, literalistic “Israel will physically kill the Messiah” wording, but in the prophetic language of:
But the meaning is unmistakable.
Instead, it says:
This matches the prophetic pattern:
And the irony is… the prophecy is extremely clear once you stop reading it through modern filters.
Here are the key passages.
1. Isaiah 53 — the clearest prophecy of Israel’s involvement
This is the big one. Isaiah 53 explicitly says:- “He was despised and rejected by men.”
- “We esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God.”
- “He was pierced for our transgressions.”
- “He was cut off from the land of the living for the transgression of my people.”
“My people” in Isaiah = Israel.
This doesn’t say “Rome will kill Him.” It says He suffers because of Israel’s sin, and the context is Israel rejecting Him.
Isaiah 53 is the prophecy that the early church used constantly to explain:
- the Messiah would suffer
- Israel would reject Him
- His death would be substitutionary
- His death was God’s plan
2. Zechariah 12:10 — Israel will look on the One they pierced
This is another direct prophecy:God Himself is speaking (“Me”), and He says:
- Israel
- pierced
- their own Messiah
This is exactly the horror the guy is describing — the idea that Israel would be responsible for the death of the Messiah.
3. Psalm 22 — the suffering Messiah rejected by His own
Psalm 22 contains:- “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
- “They pierce my hands and my feet.”
- “All who see me mock me.”
- “They wag their heads.”
- “He trusts in the LORD; let Him deliver Him.”
Who wagged their heads? Israel’s crowds.
Who said “Let God deliver Him”? Israel’s priests.
Psalm 22 is a prophecy of:
- Messiah suffering
- Messiah being mocked
- Messiah being pierced
- Messiah being rejected by His own people
4. Daniel 9:26 — Messiah will be “cut off”
Daniel prophesied:“Cut off” = executed.
Daniel doesn’t name Israel directly, but the context is:
- Israel’s sin
- Israel’s covenant
- Israel’s timeline
- Israel’s Messiah
So is there a prophecy saying Israel would kill their own Messiah?
Yes — several.Not in the modern, literalistic “Israel will physically kill the Messiah” wording, but in the prophetic language of:
- rejection
- piercing
- cutting off
- suffering
- being stricken for Israel’s sins
- Israel mourning over the One they pierced
But the meaning is unmistakable.
Why the guy said “there is no prophecy saying the Jews would kill the Messiah”
Because he’s looking for a verse that literally says:But prophecy rarely works like that.
Instead, it says:
- Israel will reject Him
- Israel will pierce Him
- Israel will cause Him to be stricken
- Israel will mourn over the One they pierced
- Messiah will be cut off for Israel’s sins
Acts says it directly — multiple times
Acts 2:23
Peter, speaking to “Men of Israel”, says:This is the clearest line. Peter holds Israel responsible, while also acknowledging Rome (“lawless men”) carried out the physical act.
This matches the prophetic pattern:
- Israel rejects
- Rome executes
- God planned it
Acts 3:13–15
Peter again, speaking to Israel:This is covenantal language — not ethnic hatred. Peter is saying:
- Israel rejected the Messiah
- Israel delivered Him to be killed
- God raised Him up
Acts 4:10
Peter says:Again, addressed to the leaders of Israel.
Acts 7:52
Stephen says:Stephen ties:
- Israel killing the prophets
- Israel betraying the Messiah
- Israel participating in His death
So yes — Acts confirms the prophetic pattern
The pattern is:- Prophets foretold a rejected, suffering Messiah (Isaiah 53, Psalm 22, Zechariah 12:10, Daniel 9:26)
- Israel rejects Him (Acts 2, 3, 4, 7)
- Rome carries out the execution
- God planned it (Acts 2:23)
- Israel later mourns the One they pierced (Zechariah 12:10)
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
LOL Hey I am from Missouri....Show Me.
Remember it has to say Messiah and death occurs....not a just a servant and abuse.
Rockerduck
Well-Known Member
I know the complete history. I have enough Jewish in me to understand. I wanted to you to clarify, which you did.
Thank you.
I’m not sure what more Scripture you’re looking for, because Jesus Himself addressed this very thing.
Jesus said: “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you. How often I longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.” — Matthew 23:37
Jesus wasn’t vague — He said plainly that the pattern of rejecting God’s messengers continued right up to His own time.
And the reaction to Him shows it. The leaders and the crowds became so enraged that they sought to get rid of Him and put Him to death, fulfilling exactly what the prophets said would happen (Isaiah 53:3–8; Psalm 22:6–8,16).
When He was crucified, Scripture records the crowd saying:
“His blood be on us and on our children!” — Matthew 27:25
That’s not me interpreting anything — that’s the text itself.
Peter even preached this openly in Acts:
“This Jesus… you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.” — Acts 2:23
And again:
“You handed Him over and rejected Him… you killed the Author of life.” — Acts 3:13–15
So the Scriptures are very clear about the pattern: Israel rejected the prophets, rejected the Messiah, and delivered Him to be killed — all of it fulfilling what God had already foretold.
@Grailhunter, Remember the parable of the Evil Farmers? That whole parable was about what would happen if they made a choice to kill the messiah and take over.
That was the whole narrative of the old testament and the prophets coming and they never paying them no mind just murdering them./\
That was the whole narrative of the old testament and the prophets coming and they never paying them no mind just murdering them./\
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Like a said, a prophecy that says it is about the Messiah and they are responsible for His death. A prophecy that for tells of His death. The death of the Messiah would be a big thing. It would have changed their religion. It would mean their Messiah failed. The coming of the Messiah was a big thing for the Jews.
No offense but people cherry pick scriptures and take them out context.
A scripture that says they will reject the Messiah....with the word Messiah in the verse.
A scripture that says the Messiah will die.....with the word Messiah in the verse.
A scripture that says the Messiah will be a God.....with the word Messiah in the verse.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
You are right. But we are not just talking about a prophet. We are talking about their Messiah. We are talking about the begotten Son of Yahweh. That is a very very significant thing. Killing the Son of Yahweh....WOW....I bet that is against the Mosaic Law. Why would they be looking foreword to that?
Maybe that should have been a Mosaic Law......Thou shalt not kill Yahweh's Son.
Who would anyone want to be a part of a religion that was going to Kill the Son of Yahweh?
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I used to enjoy watching Shawn McCraney years ago, and I’m grateful for that season. But I’m even more grateful that I eventually took the time to read the Bible for myself. Examining Scripture personally—letting the Spirit guide, comparing things, and seeing how the different parts connect—has helped me come to conclusions that are rooted in what is good and what is actually written.
People have all kinds of ideas and opinions, especially when it comes to Jesus. That’s nothing new. Even in His own day, people were divided about who He was (John 7:43).
What I hold onto is simple: Yahavah—God, the life‑giver and the God of all hope—allows people to think, choose, and respond freely. He doesn’t force anyone. He invites. Scripture shows this again and again, like when Joshua told Israel, “Choose this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15).
The Old Testament really does focus on the story of the Jewish nation from Genesis to Malachi. But even then, God interacted with other nations at times. You see it with the Philistines when the ark caused their idol to fall (1 Samuel 5), or with King Nebuchadnezzar, who was humbled until he acknowledged the Most High (Daniel 4:34–37).
I genuinely love the Bible. It’s incredibly helpful, and it’s easy for people to miss things—either because they haven’t read it in a while or because they forget how interconnected the whole narrative is. But when you slow down and look at it in context, it becomes a powerful source of clarity, hope, and understanding.
People have all kinds of ideas and opinions, especially when it comes to Jesus. That’s nothing new. Even in His own day, people were divided about who He was (John 7:43).
What I hold onto is simple: Yahavah—God, the life‑giver and the God of all hope—allows people to think, choose, and respond freely. He doesn’t force anyone. He invites. Scripture shows this again and again, like when Joshua told Israel, “Choose this day whom you will serve” (Joshua 24:15).
The Old Testament really does focus on the story of the Jewish nation from Genesis to Malachi. But even then, God interacted with other nations at times. You see it with the Philistines when the ark caused their idol to fall (1 Samuel 5), or with King Nebuchadnezzar, who was humbled until he acknowledged the Most High (Daniel 4:34–37).
I genuinely love the Bible. It’s incredibly helpful, and it’s easy for people to miss things—either because they haven’t read it in a while or because they forget how interconnected the whole narrative is. But when you slow down and look at it in context, it becomes a powerful source of clarity, hope, and understanding.
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