Witchcraft in the Church?

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

The Bible states that the works of the flesh degenerate into witchcraft. The problem I am seeing in some of the responses in this thread, is that Christians have not really
studied their Bible as they think they have. They have the idea that God is speaking about Harry Potter, but He isn't.


Exodus 22:18 “You shall not permit a sorceress to live.

Lev 19:31 “Do not turn to mediums or necromancers; do not seek them out, and so make yourselves unclean by them: I am the Lord your God.

Deut 18: 9-12 When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

II Kings 21:6 And he burned his son as an offering and used fortune-telling and omens and dealt with mediums and with necromancers. He did much evil in the sight of the Lord, provoking him to anger.

Rev.21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

Lev. 20:6 “If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people.

Acts 19:19 And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Gal 5: 19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Witchcraft is as simple as a work of the flesh and as complicated as casting a spell.

It's not Harry Potter, it's not imagination and it's not funny.


God does not think they are imaginery. He forbids the practice of witchcraft...which is as varied as the people who practice it.

Both the old and the new testaments forbid the practice. From Genesis to Revelation, God forbids its practice and states that those who practice it, whether as a work of the
flesh or as one who casts actual spells, will not inherit heaven.

Learn something...the Bible states it is real. God is spirit...not one of many...but the One and Only. There are demons, evil spirits, angels both good and bad and there are people
who worship the devil and practice the black arts.

These things are real. God says they are real. Why would you say otherwise?

Great response! :)

My opinion on witchcraft is based on my experience. I take it as seriously as all my opinions - a snapshot of my reality, subject to change. I do not believe my opinion on this subject has any barring on eternity for you or me. there is no reason for me to modify my belief at the moment, but i will let you know if i do AND no Nikki, i am not being sarcastic.

What does that really mean?

Hi aspen,

There are a number of ways that people can receive supernatural power from demons. The range from seeking it out with all one's heart, stumbling upon it accidentally, being rendered vulnerable to it by ignorant actions on the part of the person who finds themselves in strange bondage to them, being rendered vulnerable by the damaging actions of others (at a time outside their control - such as when born, or very small) to being born into a family where powers are passed down consciously or unconsciously by the older generations.

Mike Hoggard covers several of the ignorant actions being carried out by Christians these days, which amount to witchcraft.

Niki is spot on when he/she says that if God says these powers and people who focus on using them, are 'real', then we need to take that seriously.

God is not going to judge our behaviour on our own opinion of what we think is real or true, but on His perfect, REVEALED TRUTH, as in His word.

AMEN to that! :)

 

[Niki]

My opinion on witchcraft is based on my experience. I take it as seriously as all my opinions - a snapshot of my reality, subject to change. I do not believe my opinion on this subject has any barring on eternity for you or me. there is no reason for me to modify my belief at the moment, but i will let you know if i do AND no Nikki, i am not being sarcastic.

OK, well...I would not expect YOU to go by MY experience...but I would expect a Christian to go by what scripture states. There are 2 opinions in there and one truth.

Oh you have a really good reason to ..ahem..modify your world view...get a new reality...try a paradigm change...you are out of agreement with the Bible.

Do you take the Bible as your main source of truth or your experience and opinion?

Glad you are not being sarcastic...neither am I but I am a little fresh on the humor side ;) if I do say so myself...but hey that's me...in real life, I am less so...writing is inspirational

 

[aspen]

I believe witchcraft is a sin - a sin of pride. This opinion is in line with the Bible. I am Catholic so I view the Bible and Tradition as authoritative.

And actually, to be perfectly honest, belief in the power of witchcraft could be interpreted as missed placed faith and smacks of dualism. God has no rivals.

 

[Niki]

I believe witchcraft is a sin - a sin of pride. This opinion is in line with the Bible. I am Catholic so I view the Bible and Tradition as authoritative.

And actually, to be perfectly honest, belief in the power of witchcraft could be interpreted as missed placed faith and smacks of dualism. God has no rivals.

hmmm...no prob with u being Catholic for me (I know some go off the deep end here, but I've rubbed elbows with quite a few Catholics, including my Dad who later
converted)

Actually I think scripture refers to witchcraft as being as the sin of rebellion...pride is the source for many things...but witchcraft is generally believed to be
a desire to control...I guess if one wants to stretch things they could commit all things to pride as the source of sin...as the rebellion of Lucifer etc

I think you have it wrong concerning belief in witchcraft. I believe that the Atlantic ocean is quite cold the further north you go and I believe it is very powerful
and has currents etc but that does not mean I have 'faith' in the ocean. Perhaps faith is a better word. Yes, I believe witchcraft exists but do I have faith in it as
my god or the source to which I should go? No. There is a diff between belief and faith, no? Many will tell you they believe in God but they have not put
their faith IN Him. See what I'm saying? (guess I'm pestering you so you don't have to answer if you don't want to...I'm ok with that)

Yes, I believe the Bible is authoratative...I am not in agreement with Christians who would state, yes, the Bible AND....there is no and.

Sorry, but there are already two gods in this world...one is the devil and one is actually God. The Bible states that the devil is the god of this world.

Some people do worship him and many serve him whether they know it or not.

Stating that one believes witchcraft is real does not create dualism in a person's belief in God. One is only affirming what scripture states.

 

[aspen]

hmmm...no prob with u being Catholic for me (I know some go off the deep end here, but I've rubbed elbows with quite a few Catholics, including my Dad who later
converted)

I joined the Catholic Church about 13 years ago - I was 29 and working as a youth director in a Protestant Church. It was a big decision.

Actually I think scripture refers to witchcraft as being as the sin of rebellion...pride is the source for many things...but witchcraft is generally believed to be a desire to control...I guess if one wants to stretch things they could commit all things to pride as the source of sin...as the rebellion of Lucifer etc

Yeah, I do not think the sin of witchcraft is limited to Pride - it can include the full range of sins depending on how it is practiced.

I think you have it wrong concerning belief in witchcraft. I believe that the Atlantic ocean is quite cold the further north you go and I believe it is very powerful and has currents etc but that does not mean I have 'faith' in the ocean. Perhaps faith is a better word. Yes, I believe witchcraft exists but do I have faith in it as my god or the source to which I should go? No. There is a diff between belief and faith, no? Many will tell you they believe in God but they have not put their faith IN Him. See what I'm saying? (guess I'm pestering you so you don't have to answer if you don't want to...I'm ok with that)

I think you may be using the word 'faith' to mean 'faith' and 'trust'. For me, faith is limited to an expectation that I have confidence in. It is not limited to my relationship with God - it is a natural mechanism, which God requires us to direct towards Him. I have faith that witchcraft exists, but I do not believe it is reliable or even produces results beyond coincidence. I am not required to believe in the power of witchcraft - I am only required to avoid it. On a side note, I happen to believe that taking an atheistic stance towards witchcraft takes any appeal out of experimenting with it. There is a difference between belief and faith - I have a belief that the Atlantic Ocean is cold, but it would be a leap for me to place faith in a belief that is devoid of experience. I have faith that my car will start - which means that I would be surprised if it did not. Faith in God is a gift from God, but faith itself is simply a human mechanism.

Yes, I believe the Bible is authoratative...I am not in agreement with Christians who would state, yes, the Bible AND....there is no and.

Based on my study of Church History, I believe sola scriptura is a recent (1500s) development within Christianity. I believe Protestant believers are Christian, btw.

Sorry, but there are already two gods in this world...one is the devil and one is actually God. The Bible states that the devil is the god of this world.

Satan is god - little g - of this world - sort of like a lord, not God, big G. 'This world' includes the human world - materialism, consumerism, imperialism, and all other forms of worldliness.

Some people do worship him and many serve him whether they know it or not.

I agree, however serving yourself (self love) is also serving the devil - practicing witchcraft is no worse.

Stating that one believes witchcraft is real does not create dualism in a person's belief in God. One is only affirming what scripture states.

True, but setting up the devil as a rival of God does.

 

[Niki]

Oh ~ you answered in detail! I understand much better now what you are saying.

Yes...I can well believe it was a very big decision on your part to go from Protestant to Catholic.

I think you may be using the word 'faith' to mean 'faith' and 'trust'. For me, faith is limited to an expectation that I have confidence in. It is not limited to my relationship with God - it is a natural mechanism, which God requires us to direct towards Him. I have faith that witchcraft exists, but I do not believe it is reliable or even produces results beyond coincidence. I am not required to believe in the power of witchcraft - I am only required to avoid it. On a side note, I happen to believe that taking an atheistic stance towards witchcraft takes any appeal out of experimenting with it. There is a difference between belief and faith - I have a belief that the Atlantic Ocean is cold, but it would be a leap for me to place faith in a belief that is devoid of experience. I have faith that my car will start - which means that I would be surprised if it did not. Faith in God is a gift from God, but faith itself is simply a human mechanism.

I agree we can have faith in different things...ie. we know if we flick the light switch, a light will go on (most of the time) so agreed re it not being limited to God. Where we
differentiate, is that I would find it incorrect to state I have 'faith' in witchcraft but now I understand why you would say so...I just wouldn't use the word that way myself
so that could be where we parted understanding (at least on my part)

OK...well for me, I have to simply agree with how the Bible expresses it...as in, it does exist, it works, but Christians are forbidden to experiment with the occult and in fact
we are to have nothing to do with it...that would include Ouija boards etc

We are using the words faith and belief in different ways and I am really not sure they are that interchangeable but I don't want to ride that horse into the ground

I have heard/read that about sola scriptura but I'm not quite sure that equates with what the Bible itself states...thanks re the vote for affirmative Protestant Christians...
good to know...in turn, I certainly believe that Catholics can be Christian...but in either case, not all are. I do know that some teach that only Catholics are Christian,
but I believe what the Word teaches...anyone who accepts Christ as their Savior and believes that He died in their place for the remission of sins, is a Christian or
believer if you will. I know it can get complicated, but I don't think God meant it to.

Yes, satan is god with a little g. There is only One Who IS God. The devil is ruler over the world 'systems' which includes the things you mention.... ( a
temporary rule allowed by God for His purposes)

Hmmm...don't you think the devil is God's rival in the hearts and minds of us humans? In reality he is not...but we have a choice and there are only 2 sides.

I don't think we are setting him up to be God's rival by acknowledging that what scripture states concerning him and his kingdom, is true.

Thanks by the way...good discussion

 

[aspen]

yeah, i am enjoying the discussion too!

i think we are pretty much in agreement. i understand your belief about the power of the occult. i just happen to believe the allure is the most dangerous part. in the end, a poisonous snake is dangerous because of fangs AND poison so it really doesn't matter what is emphasized more.

I happened to believe that dualism (an early church heresy) is alive and well in modern Christian culture so I am sensitive to it. Many Christians that i have encountered give satan Godlike powers like omniscience and omniprescence without realizing it. The greatest danger the devil presents in my opinion is as an example of pride and open rebellion. He is a created being just like us and he was created good just like us - we actually have basic characteristics in common so it is easy for humanity to get sucked into selfish behavior just like he did. have you ever read 'This Present Darkness'? It hasmore to do with dualism than Christianity.

Christianity without dualism teaches that Good is not dependent on Evil to exist. We never had to know evil to appreciate good. in fact, evil is not a separate force - it is not an opposite - instead, it is a lesser or incomplete or corruption of goodness.

 

[Niki]

yeah, i am enjoying the discussion too!

i think we are pretty much in agreement. i understand your belief about the power of the occult. i just happen to believe the allure is the most dangerous part. in the end, a poisonous snake is dangerous because of fangs AND poison so it really doesn't matter what is emphasized more.

I happened to believe that dualism (an early church heresy) is alive and well in modern Christian culture so I am sensitive to it. Many Christians that i have encountered give satan Godlike powers like omniscience and omniprescence without realizing it. The greatest danger the devil presents in my opinion is as an example of pride and open rebellion. He is a created being just like us and he was created good just like us - we actually have basic characteristics in common so it is easy for humanity to get sucked into selfish behavior just like he did. have you ever read 'This Present Darkness'? It hasmore to do with dualism than Christianity.

Christianity without dualism teaches that Good is not dependent on Evil to exist. We never had to know evil to appreciate good. in fact, evil is not a separate force - it is not an opposite - instead, it is a lesser or incomplete or corruption of goodness.

:)...I know that doesn't mean we will always agree, but I am fine with disagreement as long as everyone plays nice. so there

Anyway.........

Yes, I have had occult power directed at me so I do know it works. Overcame through prayer, fasting and the blood of Christ. I seem to have a bit of knack for running into
whacky people or maybe they run into me...I know the Holy Spirit resides in me and I know that can make some people very uncomfortable...this applies to all Christians who
are living for Christ and are not Christian in name only. The power of God is real and the presence of God is real...we belong to Him and I think it is important to understand
that the devil knows that we do.

I don't mean fear...because we do not fear, our faith has overcome already if we have that faith placed in Christ Jesus...He won the battle over the enemy on the cross, but
we do have to appropriate that victory.....we affirm the work of Christ by believing the Bible and quote scripture if we have to (as did Jesus) when the devil attacks. On the
subject, no, I don't believe there is a demon under every rock. And I don't believe that we poke at the dark and have a conversation with it. I say we ignore it as much
as possible, and only declare what Jesus has done as His is the victory over these things. Hope that makes sense.

I have not really studied dualism as you are describing it now, I can see why you state what you do. ( I really am interested in what others think and how they interpret,
understand and live out the Bible...(I don't need another doctrinal argument or nonsense like the current thread on 'signs' I am involved in) I guess I would just like
a conversation wherein people agree on the Bible and then go forward from there. I am constantly both amazed and disappointed that people seem to think that their
private interpretation of the Word is ok....when the Bible itself declares that it is NOT open for private interpretation and declares that the truth has been delivered
once and for all! Well, enough of my private hobby horse.

FYI, I do not ascribe to the devil the power of Christ or God. No...he is a defeated enemy! (OK...I want to shout hallelujah here LOL!)...but he really is!

I'm not sure if I read "This Present Darkness"...if I did it must have been some years ago ... it sounds familiar..

Christianity without dualism teaches that Good is not dependent on Evil to exist. We never had to know evil to appreciate good. in fact, evil is not a separate force - it is not an opposite - instead, it is a lesser or incomplete or corruption of goodness.

I like the above ^^^ yes I do! I think I need to do some studying on dualism. I don't think I really understand it the way I thought I did...I find myself really agreeing with the last
statement above and yes, the devil is also created...not God at all.

 

[aspen]

it is straight from Augustine :)

 

[Niki]

I had heard of dualism but never paid much attention, because I ascribe to:

Christianity rejected all forms of a dual origin of the world which erected matter, or evil, or any other principle into a second eternal being coexistent with God, and it taught the monistic origin of the universe from one, infinite, self-existing spiritual Being who freely created all things.

taken from this site

So dualism is actually a very big topic with all kinds of viewpoints it seems. I absolutely do not think that God and the devil are opposites.

I am thinking that if they are opposites, then the devil would have to be equal but with his power associated with evil as opposed to the good of God.

I realize things start to get a little philosophical (and following some of the arguments presented, that is the case through the ages)

I believe the Bible clearly indicates that the devil is created, rebelled, fell or was thrown out of heaven and is not equal to God. He cannot be everywhere,
does not hear or know everything and cannot create.

 

[aspen]

i totally agree.

 

[Niki]

Agreement in forums is always good! :)

 

[aspen]

I have a dualism thread on this board somewhere - I think it is important to study heresies in the early church because many still affect us today. Dualism is especially insidious because it was a foundation of many larger heresies like Gnosticism, Cathar and Montanism - it has been simmering (even in orthodox doctrine) every since.

Unfortunately, Evangelical and Pentecostal church seems to be susceptible to it at this moment in history, but all Christian churches are vulnerable.

Who knew Zoroasterism would be so influential and enduring? - ugh.

 

[Niki]

huh...well we've taken a side trip to the original op, but no one has complained.so...LOL!

I wonder now if sometimes people were thinking dualism when I was thinking God all powerful, devil, not.

I have been to alot of different churches and this may explain some of the freaky behavior in some...or not ;)

It does seem to be a vast subject though.............

oh that reminds me, I googled the book you mentioned, This Present Darkness, and immediately recalled the reason for it sounding familiar....I did NOT read it
because I saw an increase in an interest in all things demonic with the resulting imbalance that often accompanies such things and saw that people were
responding to the book as though it was the gospel

Gee, that about brings this full circle back to the op...

 

[aspen]

Interesting!