with out the infant baptised there would not be one christian to day

[Alanforchrist]

That is not what we meant for "choosing." God chooses certain people to carry out His mission. For example, He chose Moses to bring His people out of slavery from Egypt. And this doesn't make God a sinner. He has free will and He can choose whomever He wants. Where did anyone say that God chose some for salvation and others for Hell?? Who said that??



According to the Scriptures I quoted, baptism can save. Why? Because baptism came from God. Do you believe that what comes from God can save a man? Do you believe that salvation comes from God? If you believe that salvation comes from God, then why is it difficult to believe that the things of God and from God can bring salvation?

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

1 Peter 3:21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. [fn] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

When people say "God choses", They normaly mean God choses people to be saved.
It is true that God gives people Ministries, And we can't chose what Ministry we want.

As for water baptism.. It doesn't save.
The Greek Bible emphesis for, "Saved" in Mk 16: 16, Is on the "Believing", Not baptism.
As for 1 Pet 3: 21, The Greek says baptism is a "type, A symbo,l a figure", as Peter says.

Peter knew water baptism doesn't save, So why would you think he said it does in 1 Pet 3: 21??.
Peter was baptised, But he wasn't saved at that time.
What Peter acually said in Act 2: 38, And this is the way the people would have heard and understood Peter,
"Repent for the remission of sins, And you shall recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost".. Then you can be baptised in water.

So Peter, Paul and the other Apostles as well as the disciples, And the Gentiles in Acts 10, All knew baptism doesn't save.
It is only false religious people who say baptism saves.
If they were saved, They would know baptism doesn't save.

An infant is baptized to take away the "original sin" that was passed down from Adam and Eve and also so that the infant would be part of God's family. In the Bible, whole households were baptized (See Acts 16:15 and 1 Corinthians 1:16), which would include not only infants but also servants. St. Peter declared that baptism and the Holy Spirit was also for the children (See Acts 2:38-39).

History also shows that the Early Christians baptized both infants and adults. According to those historical documents:

Irenaeus

"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

Hippolytus

"Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).

Origen

"Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).
"The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).

In the third century, there was even a debate as to how old an infant should be baptized. Some say on the eighth day, which is the same day as the Jewish circumcision:
Cyprian of Carthage

"As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Infant baptism ISN'T scriptural.
God's way is,
[1]Hear and understand the gospel.
[2]Believe, repent and receive salvation..Then you are born again.
[3]Then and then only can one get baptised in water.

So how can an infant hear, understand, repent and chose to receive salvation??.

When the Bible mentions housholds being baptised, It doesn't include infants, It means those of an age of understanding.
Water baptism is symbolic of One identifying themself with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.
It has no saving power

The Early Christians of the first, second, third, fourth centuries, etc. showed that they practiced infant baptism and there was never any debates over it. The only debate you would find is a third century document debating on how old the infant should be baptized.

The early Christians DIDN'T practice infant baptism.. The false religious poeple might have done, But not the Christians.

 

[Niki]

You obviously don't serve the same God as I do, Because my God isn't an evil sinner like your god.
God has chosen a body, And that body consists of anyone and evryone who believes and receives salvation.

You god choses some for salvation and others for hell, And that makes him a respecter of people,
But that isn't my God, The God of the Bible, [God the Father], Who isn't a respecter of people, But anyone who choses to live for God, God will gladly accept.

Wow. You obviously have no proper understanding of scripture as I basically only posted scripture.

No need to try and insult. That, is what is not Christian. There is only ONE God and YOU do not get to say YOUR God is the only God.

A Christian understands that there may be difference of interpretation, but that same Christian does not slander others as you have tried to do.

I would suggest an attitude adjustment. People disagree all the time without insulting each other and making untrue claims in order to start an arguement.

I actually have not stated what you are attempting to say I stated regarding how God chooses.

You are cherry picking verses to support your belief.

What I actually stated was that God knows the outcome of how we will choose. You just don't see that for some reason as you appear to be very intent
on only believing what you think rather than what the Bible actually states.

You have truly and very badly misinterpreted what I posted. Argue with scripture because that is really where you have gone wrong.

Thanks but no thanks

 

[Alanforchrist]

Wow. You obviously have no proper understanding of scripture as I basically only posted scripture.

No need to try and insult. That, is what is not Christian. There is only ONE God and YOU do not get to say YOUR God is the only God.

A Christian understands that there may be difference of interpretation, but that same Christian does not slander others as you have tried to do.

I would suggest an attitude adjustment. People disagree all the time without insulting each other and making untrue claims in order to start an arguement.

I actually have not stated what you are attempting to say I stated regarding how God chooses.

You are cherry picking verses to support your belief.

What I actually stated was that God knows the outcome of how we will choose. You just don't see that for some reason as you appear to be very intent
on only believing what you think rather than what the Bible actually states.

You have truly and very badly misinterpreted what I posted. Argue with scripture because that is really where you have gone wrong.

Thanks but no thanks

NO..NO.. What you should have said was, You misquoted scriptures, Because that's what you did, You took them out of context and built yout own doctrine based upon your sinful god.

That very fact that when I said,

"If God choses us, That would make Him a respecter of people, As He would chose some and reject others.
And if God did chose us, and not others That would make Him a sinner, As He would chose some and not others.
So the truth is, We chose to live for God"....

You said.

Quote,
"ummmm......going to disagree Alan".

So your statement proves that you think God is sinful... I rest my case...God is right and you are wrong.

 

[Niki]

So your statement proves that you think God is sinful... I rest my case...God is right and you are wrong.

OK...you must have gone to Harvard Divinity if you think you can twist what I said and then rest your case.

You do not seem able to acknowledge that I did not write what you say I wrote. You have a preconceived notion of what you think
I am saying and you are incorrect.

You just have it wrong, that's all. There is no case here...just your very bad interpretation which does not agree with the text.

You can go ahead and have the last word though if it helps you sleep at night.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Infant baptism ISN'T scriptural.

true enough ... but in fairness scripture does not speak against it either ..... bible even tells some believers to go home and .... "baptize their whole families" .... what if there were babies there ? ....

 

[Alanforchrist]

OK...you must have gone to Harvard Divinity if you think you can twist what I said and then rest your case.

You do not seem able to acknowledge that I did not write what you say I wrote. You have a preconceived notion of what you think
I am saying and you are incorrect.

You just have it wrong, that's all. There is no case here...just your very bad interpretation which does not agree with the text.

You can go ahead and have the last word though if it helps you sleep at night.

How can you get away from this,

That very fact that when I said,

"If God choses us, That would make Him a respecter of people, As He would chose some and reject others.
And if God did chose us, and not others That would make Him a sinner, As He would chose some and not others.
So the truth is, We chose to live for God"....

You said.

Quote,
"ummmm......going to disagree Alan".

How in the world is that twisting what you said??
How is that mis-interpreting what you said????.


As I said, I rest my case.
Not only do you call God evil, But you tell lies.

true enough ... but in fairness scripture does not speak against it either ..... bible even tells some believers to go home and .... "baptize their whole families" .... what if there were babies there ? ....

Whole families don't include infants, It is for those of an age of understanding.
God's way for baptism, is,
[A]Hear and understand the gospel
Believe the gospel.
[C]Repent and get born again.
How can an infant hear, understand, believe and repent.

In Acts 2: 39. It mentions "Children". The Greek word for, "Children" in Acts 2: 39, Is, "Teknos" [One of an age of understanding]
If it was infants, The Greek word would be, "Brethos".
And the pope and the catholic leaders should know this, They also should know that baptism is by total immersion,
So why they don't teach and practice the truth, Is because they believe their own doctrine rather than the Bible.

 

[Angelina]

Child baptism is of little value in the eyes of Christ since he himself said:

Matthew 18:3
and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Shalom!!!

 

[jiggyfly]

Child baptism is of little value in the eyes of Christ since he himself said:

Matthew 18:3
and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

Shalom!!!

Yes indeed, but infant baptism may be important for induction into certain religious organizations.

 

[Alanforchrist]

Yes indeed, but infant baptism may be important for induction into certain religious organizations.

Infant baptism isn't scriptural, So why would it be an important induction into a religious organization??.
Baptism is one identifying themself with Christ, Not identifying themself with a religious ornaization.
Although some do.

 

[jiggyfly]

Infant baptism isn't scriptural, So why would it be an important induction into a religious organization??.
Baptism is one identifying themself with Christ, Not identifying themself with a religious ornaization.
Although some do.

Tis my point. :)

 

[Selene]

Infant baptism replaced circumcision. In the Old Testament, circumcision is the sign that they are God's people. All male child at 8 days old were circumcised. Even the servants of the Israelites were circumcised. Anyone who was not circumcised was cut off from God's chosen people. According to St. Paul, baptism replaced circumcision. Baptism is not only about removing the original sin passed down by Adam and Eve, it is also being part of God's family.

Colossians 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh [fn] was put off when you were circumcised by [fn] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

In this biblical verse above, St. Paul compared circumcision to baptism. The circumcision by Christ not made by human hands is baptism. Infants were baptized by the Early Christians since the first century not only to remove the original sin, but to allow them to become a part of God's family. Just as circumcision was a sign to show that the Israelites were God's chosen people, so is baptism used as a sign showing that we are God's family.

 

[rockytopva]

I don't have the issue with water baptism...

If you want to sprinkle... That's fine with me!
If you want to dunk... That's fine with me!
If you want it in a baptistry... That's fine with me!
If you want it in a river.. That's fine with me!
If you want to baptize babies... That's fine with me!
If you want to baptize adults... That's fine with me!

I may have been baptized at birth in a Catholic church as dad was Catholic. I was baptized in a Baptistry as a Baptist and in a river as a Pentecostal. I feel Baptism is a lot like communion where heart motive is 95% of the ritual.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. - I Cor 11:29-31

There was a party years ago along side the Little River in Floyd County where the people got drunk and some guy thought it was fun to have a baptizing. They had the guitars out and thought it was all in fun. The guy who did the baptizing was also a fisherman. One day while fishing a terrible storm arose, the waters got violent (and Little River is not that big by the way), and swept the poor man to his death. When I heard this story my mind immediately went back to the baptizing they had earlier around that same spot.

 

[jiggyfly]

Infant baptism replaced circumcision. In the Old Testament, circumcision is the sign that they are God's people. All male child at 8 days old were circumcised. Even the servants of the Israelites were circumcised. Anyone who was not circumcised was cut off from God's chosen people. According to St. Paul, baptism replaced circumcision. Baptism is not only about removing the original sin passed down by Adam and Eve, it is also being part of God's family.

Colossians 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh [fn] was put off when you were circumcised by [fn] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

In this biblical verse above, St. Paul compared circumcision to baptism. The circumcision by Christ not made by human hands is baptism. Infants were baptized by the Early Christians since the first century not only to remove the original sin, but to allow them to become a part of God's family. Just as circumcision was a sign to show that the Israelites were God's chosen people, so is baptism used as a sign showing that we are God's family.

Notice that Paul said it was a circumcision not performed with human hands, so it is not water baptism, after all I never seen anyone baptize themselves, especially infants.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Selene .... good point about infant circumcision .... I had never given that any thought before .... thank you

I wonder if the folks who oppose infant baptism would also have been opposed to infant circumcision .

And it was God himself who instituted circumcision of infants (Cant blame the Catholics for that one) :)

I find that quite intriguing when I stop and think of it .... on another thread we have had much discussion about ... "Who is Israel" .... and to me it is the literal bloodline of Jacob thru Issac ..... and one of the identifiers God required was circumcision.

As far as I know even the non-religious Jews still make sure to circumcise their babies on the 8th day.

Gods way of baptism is ...
[A]Hear and understand the gospel
Believe the gospel.
[C]Repent and get born again.
How can an infant hear, understand, believe and repent.

Not going to disagree with that ...... but what about John who came baptizing people before Christ was even on the scene ...

 

[Alanforchrist]

Infant baptism replaced circumcision. In the Old Testament, circumcision is the sign that they are God's people. All male child at 8 days old were circumcised. Even the servants of the Israelites were circumcised. Anyone who was not circumcised was cut off from God's chosen people. According to St. Paul, baptism replaced circumcision. Baptism is not only about removing the original sin passed down by Adam and Eve, it is also being part of God's family.

Colossians 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh [fn] was put off when you were circumcised by [fn] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

In this biblical verse above, St. Paul compared circumcision to baptism. The circumcision by Christ not made by human hands is baptism. Infants were baptized by the Early Christians since the first century not only to remove the original sin, but to allow them to become a part of God's family. Just as circumcision was a sign to show that the Israelites were God's chosen people, so is baptism used as a sign showing that we are God's family.

Circumcision isn't raplaced by baptism, The New circumcision of of the heart, Not water. Rom 2: 29, Which is the rebirth.
Water baptism doesn't give us the new birth, One has to be born again to be baptised, Not the other way round.

I don't have the issue with water baptism...

If you want to sprinkle... That's fine with me!
If you want to dunk... That's fine with me!
If you want it in a baptistry... That's fine with me!
If you want it in a river.. That's fine with me!
If you want to baptize babies... That's fine with me!
If you want to baptize adults... That's fine with me!

I may have been baptized at birth in a Catholic church as dad was Catholic. I was baptized in a Baptistry as a Baptist and in a river as a Pentecostal. I feel Baptism is a lot like communion where heart motive is 95% of the ritual.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. - I Cor 11:29-31

There was a party years ago along side the Little River in Floyd County where the people got drunk and some guy thought it was fun to have a baptizing. They had the guitars out and thought it was all in fun. The guy who did the baptizing was also a fisherman. One day while fishing a terrible storm arose, the waters got violent (and Little River is not that big by the way), and swept the poor man to his death. When I heard this story my mind immediately went back to the baptizing they had earlier around that same spot.

Every Greek meaning for, "Baptism", Is by total immersion.
Mans opinions count for nothing, We have to go by what the Bible says.

Selene .... good point about infant circumcision .... I had never given that any thought before .... thank you

I wonder if the folks who oppose infant baptism would also have been opposed to infant circumcision .

And it was God himself who instituted circumcision of infants (Cant blame the Catholics for that one) :)

I find that quite intriguing when I stop and think of it .... on another thread we have had much discussion about ... "Who is Israel" .... and to me it is the literal bloodline of Jacob thru Issac ..... and one of the identifiers God required was circumcision.

As far as I know even the non-religious Jews still make sure to circumcise their babies on the 8th day.


Not going to disagree with that ...... but what about John who came baptizing people before Christ was even on the scene ...

You might think Selene made s good point, The only thing is, it's is wrong.
John's baptism isn't the Christian baptism, It was preparing the way for Jesus.
No baptism saves.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

You might think Selene made s good point, The only thing is, it's is wrong.

Yes ...I think she made a good point ..., an 8 day old Israelite was circumcised whether they wanted to be an Israelite or not
Some denominations baptize babies whether they want to be Christians or not
It has always troubled me that some denominations baptize infants ... infants cannot make religious decisions
It troubles me less when I consider God mandated infant circumcision ... even though infants cannot make religious decisions

John's baptism isn't the Christian baptism, It was preparing the way for Jesus.
No baptism saves.

So are you implying that all the people John the Baptist baptized had to be baptized over again ?
And if that is the case why were they even baptized in the first place ?

 

[Alanforchrist]

Yes ...I think she made a good point ..., an 8 day old Israelite was circumcised whether they wanted to be an Israelite or not
Some denominations baptize babies whether they want to be Christians or not
It has always troubled me that some denominations baptize infants ... infants cannot make religious decisions
It troubles me less when I consider God mandated infant circumcision ... even though infants cannot make religious decisions


So are you implying that all the people John the Baptist baptized had to be baptized over again ?
And if that is the case why were they even baptized in the first place ?

If the people who John the Baptist baptised became Christians after Jesus died and rose again to give us salvation, They would have to be baptised with the Christian baptism to testify that they belong to Jesus.
The Christian baptism is an outward sign of an ALREADY inward experience of belonging to Jesus through being saved. It is identifying oneself with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

It would be the same as a JW geting saved,They would have a Christian baptism, Although they have been baptised into the JWs

 

[Selene]

If the people who John the Baptist baptised became Christians after Jesus died and rose again to give us salvation, They would have to be baptised with the Christian baptism to testify that they belong to Jesus.
The Christian baptism is an outward sign of an ALREADY inward experience of belonging to Jesus through being saved. It is identifying oneself with the death burial and resurrection of Jesus.

It would be the same as a JW geting saved,They would have a Christian baptism, Although they have been baptised into the JWs

It was God who ordered John the Baptist to baptize. John baptized for the forgiveness of sins (See Luke 1:76-79). John baptized at the Jordan River, and all who came to him were baptized, washing away their sins into the waters of the Jordan River. Then comes along Christ and tells John to baptize Him despite that He did not have any sins. Christ allowed this event to occur because He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Only Christ is able to carry all the sins that were washed into the Jordan River and cleanse them.

Baptism resembles Christ's death as He carries all the sins that were washed in the Jordan River. Rising from the waters resembles His resurrection. The Holy Spirit then descends upon Christ and a voice from Heaven is heard saying, "This is my Son, whom I am well pleased."

Christ's baptism at the Jordan River is the Christian baptism. We are also buried with Christ in His baptism:

Colossians 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh [fn] was put off when you were circumcised by [fn] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.



When infants are baptized in water, they become buried with Christ in baptism. Rising from the waters, the Holy Spirit then descends upon the child and a voice in Heaven declares, "This is my son/daughter whom I am well pleased." The Child becomes a son/daughter of God and incorporated into the Body of Christ......God's family. One only needs to be baptized once to be part of God's family. To be baptized with BOTH water and spirit is the Christian baptism. Baptism has replaced circumcision. Baptism is the sign showing that we are God's children.

 

[Niki]

When infants are baptized in water, they become buried with Christ in baptism. Rising from the waters, the Holy Spirit then descends upon the child and a voice in Heaven declares, "This is my son/daughter whom I am well pleased." The Child becomes a son/daughter of God and incorporated into the Body of Christ......God's family. One only needs to be baptized once to be part of God's family. To be baptized with BOTH water and spirit is the Christian baptism. Baptism has replaced circumcision. Baptism is the sign showing that we are God's children.

Interesting, but I have not ever seen this in scripture. I guess people can believe all kinds of things and that results in all kinds of beliefs. That does not make a certain
belief Christian.

It is my concern that this particular doctrine is extra biblical and while it may satisfy those who loose an infant and while it may sound lovely, it does not bear resemblance
to the actual teaching concerning baptism that is found in scripture.

Repeating it constantly does not make it so. Believing it does not make it so. You cannot make a decision for Christ for another person and this teaching indicates that
if the parents have their infant baptized, the child is heaven bound. That is really a false teaching if it is not found in scripture. Men cannot make a better entrance into
heaven then the One already provided.

Circumcision did not save anyone...it was a sign of God's people being set apart for Him. We are to circumcise our hearts...that is, not be a part of the world just as
the Israelites were not to be a part of the pagan nations they were surrounded by.

I consider the above false teaching...I understand it is Catholic. I know you will respond. Please do. But if you want to know what my response is, just reread this post.

Thanks

 

[Alanforchrist]

It was God who ordered John the Baptist to baptize. John baptized for the forgiveness of sins (See Luke 1:76-79). John baptized at the Jordan River, and all who came to him were baptized, washing away their sins into the waters of the Jordan River. Then comes along Christ and tells John to baptize Him despite that He did not have any sins. Christ allowed this event to occur because He is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Only Christ is able to carry all the sins that were washed into the Jordan River and cleanse them.

Baptism resembles Christ's death as He carries all the sins that were washed in the Jordan River. Rising from the waters resembles His resurrection. The Holy Spirit then descends upon Christ and a voice from Heaven is heard saying, "This is my Son, whom I am well pleased."

Christ's baptism at the Jordan River is the Christian baptism. We are also buried with Christ in His baptism:

Colossians 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh [fn] was put off when you were circumcised by [fn] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.



When infants are baptized in water, they become buried with Christ in baptism. Rising from the waters, the Holy Spirit then descends upon the child and a voice in Heaven declares, "This is my son/daughter whom I am well pleased." The Child becomes a son/daughter of God and incorporated into the Body of Christ......God's family. One only needs to be baptized once to be part of God's family. To be baptized with BOTH water and spirit is the Christian baptism. Baptism has replaced circumcision. Baptism is the sign showing that we are God's children.

If John the Baptist baptism was the Christian one, How come Aquila and Prisilla had to show Apollos the more perfect way. Because he only knew Johns baptism. Acts 18: 24--26.
And how come Paul had to RE-baptise the disciples at Ephesus, Acts 19: 1--5.

Please note, Jesus showed us the perfect example, He was the son of God before He was baptised, So God's way is,
First become a child of God, Then one can be baptised.

Infants cannot be baptised as they cannot believe, repent and chose to get saved. As most catholics prove they are not saved.
Plus, Baptism is by total immersion, Not by pouring or dabbing water on a childs forhead.