with out the infant baptised there would not be one christian to day

[Niki]

Niki, on 17 Aug 2013 - 2:12 PM, said:

Yeah that's what I said Alan. That's what I said.

They are two separate things and as you have repeatedly pointed out to Selene, baptism does not save anyone.

Well, I'm done with trying to discuss anything with her because it's impossible. She loves the last word so I say let her have it! ^_^

She's wrong anyway, so it's just a waste of time. You can't discuss anything with someone who believes they know more than what is in the Bible and more than
all the information of all the collected works of every Catholic who ever lived.

ALAN: The trouble with catholics, Is, They have to believe what the catholic church tells them, Even though we give them the scriptures.
They are taught that the catholic church has the authority, And whatever it says is truth.


I was having a conversation with a catholic about priests not getting married, And I shown him criptures which says God's Ministers can get married, So he said,
"I'll have to see what my priest says about that",.. [Meaning that his priest has final authority].

So I said, Forget what your priest says, THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.

Can you imagine the fallout if the Pope ever stood up and declared scripture the only valid expression of God's will?

With the RCC, it is always oh yes, we believe and teach what the Bible says..and then the math begins...the Bible PLUS Rome, the Bible PLUS the early church fathers...
forget the fact that Jesus did not mean He was building His church on the Apostle Peter...that would bring down the entire structure if that little misunderstanding
ever got cleared up.....sigh

Niki, on 19 Aug 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

The Titanic was supposed to be unsinkable.

Your Pope is supposed to be infallible.

They are the both the same.

That's a lapse in logic there. The Titanic can be sinkable while the Pope infallible when speaking definitively on issues of faith, morals, and doctrine. The former is a work of men and subject to futility, the latter a work of the Holy Spirit and thus enduring and irreproachable.

LOL! NO. They are exactly the same. Rome is not built by God and neither was the RCC.
My analogy was flawless.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Niki, on 17 Aug 2013 - 2:12 PM, said:


LOL! NO. They are exactly the same. Rome is not built by God and neither was the RCC.

My analogy was flawless.

Actually it's just your opinion. In the end that's all you have, your own misguided opinions.

 

[Alanforchrist]

Now you're saying that people who believe in efficacious water baptism are "unsaved false religious people".....and that would be the vast majority of Christians all over the world.

That's a lapse in logic there. The Titanic can be sinkable while the Pope infallible when speaking definitively on issues of faith, morals, and doctrine. The former is a work of men and subject to futility, the latter a work of the Holy Spirit and thus enduring and irreproachable.

When does the pope speak on issues of faith and biblical doctrines???.
There are two many differences between the Biblical Church and the catholic church, And the pope speaks the catholic church doctrines.
The pope is just a man made un-Biblical false office, How dare you say a pope is a work of the Holy Spirit, That is an insult to God.

Niki, on 17 Aug 2013 - 2:12 PM, said:

Can you imagine the fallout if the Pope ever stood up and declared scripture the only valid expression of God's will?

With the RCC, it is always oh yes, we believe and teach what the Bible says..and then the math begins...the Bible PLUS Rome, the Bible PLUS the early church fathers...
forget the fact that Jesus did not mean He was building His church on the Apostle Peter...that would bring down the entire structure if that little misunderstanding
ever got cleared up.....sigh



LOL! NO. They are exactly the same. Rome is not built by God and neither was the RCC.

My analogy was flawless.

You are right,
The pope should know the scriptures and the Greek, And the scriptures & Greek says Jesus didn't build His Church on Peter.
If you take away, "Thou art Peter", You will find out what Jesus acctually said.
Here it is,
Peter, Thou art the Christ, The Son of the living God,
Jesus, Blessed art thou Simom Bar-jona because My Father has revealed this to you, And upon this rock, [The revelation that Jesus is the Christ], I will build My Church,

Now for Peter, Aramaic, "Kepha"
Greek "Patros, A small rock that is easily moved or shaken".. Didn't Peter prove it??. YES he did.

The rock, Aramaic, Shua,
Greek, Petra, "A solid foundation".

Two different Greek and Aramaic words for Peter and the Rock that Jesus built His Church on, Two different meanings.

Plus, In the Greek there are persons and numbers, And they both have to agree in order to build a doctrine.
And the rock & Peter do not agree in person or number... So you are right, It is imposible for Jesus to have built His Church on Peter.

Plus, The Bible say the Church was built on the foundations of the Apostles and Prophets, Plural, Eph 2: 20.
Not Apostle,singular, As In one,[Peter].

And the pope should know this, But he diliberatelly deceives all catholics into thinking he is the successor to Peter.

Actually it's just your opinion. In the end that's all you have, your own misguided opinions.

Show me where the pope is, In the Bible.

God's Ministers are, Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers..
Jesus gives them, Eph 4: 11, And God sets them in the Church. 1 Cor 12: 28.... Where is the pope??, Where is the priest??.
Where is the so--called catholic bishop??. Certainly not in the Bible, Making the catholic ministers, Man made, Just like the catholic church.

 

[Niki]

Actually it's just your opinion. In the end that's all you have, your own misguided opinions.

You really will argue about anything at all, won't you.... The pope is fallible. He is a human being...he is not sinless and therefore he is just like every other Joe Blow on the planet.

The Bible is the Word of God. The RCC is man's interpretation of God's word.

Jesus is the representation of God who is invisible.

The pope is the representation of hindsight, traditions and the will of man with a smattering of scripture not unlike gold plating. It scrapes off.
ALAN:

You are right,
The pope should know the scriptures and the Greek, And the scriptures & Greek says Jesus didn't build His Church on Peter.
If you take away, "Thou art Peter", You will find out what Jesus acctually said.
Here it is,
Peter, Thou art the Christ, The Son of the living God,
Jesus, Blessed art thou Simom Bar-jona because My Father has revealed this to you, And upon this rock, [The revelation that Jesus is the Christ], I will build My Church,

Now for Peter, Aramaic, "Kepha"

Yes. That is always conveniently overlooked.
By the way Alan and anyone else who would really like to know what Catholics think of Protestants:

No, I absolutely do not agree that either of us is "gravely, eternally wrong". I think that even severed from full communion with Christ's one and original church, Protestants can be saved. That's what grace is.

Now who said that? post 58

I can't really say if all Catholics share the sentiments of Mr. Vale of Tears , but here we see that some Catholics and certainly the Vale, see Protestants as apostate...with grace being
the only redeeming feature that gets them into heaven.

For that matter, Muslims, JW's and Mormons? No prob! Grace has them covered too! Never mind the Bible teaches the opposite. In his own words:

I think you better get used to the fact that a Mormon, a Catholic, and even a Hindu or Buddhist who seek God with a sincere heart is going to heaven no less than you are. If you don't, heaven will be a miserable place for you.

I don't have the ability nor would I want the responsibility, of keeping anyone out of heaven. But, judge for yourself if the words of Vale are in scripture.

Then, understand why it is so important to actually follow the Bible and not the words of a denom that keeps changing what it believes.

I mean honestly, you can't make this stuff up!

 

[Alanforchrist]

It appears that you've also taken out the words "and is baptized" out of Christ's sentence. You're right, Christ did not say "those who don't believe and are not baptized" will be condemned. Do you know why He did not say " are not baptized? Because ALL those who don't believe are not baptized. ALL unbelievers are not baptized. They are already condemned. Now, do you know why Jesus says "Those who believe and IS BAPTIZED"?.....Because some of the believers are baptized and some are not.


And what has this to do with what I just stated?? Stick to the topic.

You are putting your own wrong interpretations to the Bible, The Greek says the "Believing" in Mk 16: 16, Is for being saved, Not baptism.
If you knew the Bible, You would know that water baptism doesn't save.

 

[mjrhealth]

"Those who believe and IS BAPTIZED"?.....Because some of the believers are baptized and some are not

There are many who call themselves christians, who on the outside put on the appearance of righteousness, baptized and all, yet will be condemned. as Jesus said, " they worship me with there mouths but there hearts are far from me". It is out faith in Christ and all He did that saves us, nothing else.

In all His Love

 

[Jane_doe]

yes but to give the answers took many years of listening to objections of Baptist theologians and then reading Scriptures
for its answers and also hearing from the witness of ..early church fathers that were alive at the time of the apostles. even checking out relics left by early Christians that gave witness to infant baptism.

Infant baptism is taught in the Bible. Baptism is definitely necessary for salvation (John 3:5).

 

[mjrhealth]

Infant baptism is taught in the Bible

Really, where??

 

[Alanforchrist]

Infant baptism is taught in the Bible. Baptism is definitely necessary for salvation (John 3:5).

Where doesn Jn 3: 5 say one must be born of the Spirit, AND BAPTISED IN WATER??. It doesn't,
False religions have made that lie up.
The "Water" is the word of God, Jn 15: 3. Eph 5: 26. James 1: 18. 1 Pet 1: 22-23.

Where does the Bible teach infant baptism???.. IT DOESN'T.. False religious people have made that lie up.
How can an infant, Hear the gospel, Believe it, Repent and get born again??, Because thats what the Bible teaches before one can be baptised.

 

[mjrhealth]

Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Still living under the old,

Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

In all His Love

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Where doesn Jn 3: 5 say one must be born of the Spirit, AND BAPTISED IN WATER??. It doesn't,
False religions have made that lie up.
The "Water" is the word of God, Jn 15: 3. Eph 5: 26. James 1: 18. 1 Pet 1: 22-23.

Where does the Bible teach infant baptism???.. IT DOESN'T.. False religious people have made that lie up.
How can an infant, Hear the gospel, Believe it, Repent and get born again??, Because thats what the Bible teaches before one can be baptised.

Actually, what the Bible does not teach is the fanciful "age of accountability". What the Bible does say is that entire families were baptized regardless of age, a good example being the jailer's family when Paul evangelized the jailer after an earthquake compromised his confinement.

 

[Selene]

Luk_3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Still living under the old,

Joh_1:33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

In all His Love

St. John the Baptist and baptism is part of the New Testament.

 

[mjrhealth]

Baptism is a choice, just as is following Christ and being formed in His image, or becoming a protestant, or a catholic, or presbyterian. God is all about choices, WE choose, the choice is not made for us, believing a lie will not make it a truth, wheter you believe it to be so or not.

In all His Love.

Even if I had not being baptized I would still go to be with my Father for I am His son.

When christians, put the key into the lock of this prison, called the bible, in which we try to restain God, and unlock it and let Him out, He will change the world, but christans wont do it, they prefer to keep Him locked in and only let Him out whne they need Him

 

[Alanforchrist]

Actually, what the Bible does not teach is the fanciful "age of accountability". What the Bible does say is that entire families were baptized regardless of age, a good example being the jailer's family when Paul evangelized the jailer after an earthquake compromised his confinement.

The Bible doesn't teach that infants can be baptised,
God's way for baptism, Is,
Hear the gospel,
Believe it,
Repent and get saved through the rebirth.
Then and then only can one be baptised.
Mk 16: 16. Act 2: 38. Acts 8: 36--37. Acts 16: 30--33. Acts 19: 2--6..

How can an infant, hear, believe, repent and get born again then chose to be baptised??.

Entire housholds, DOES NOT include infants, Because God wouldn't go against His word, God and His word are one.

Your problem is, You believe the catholic teachings, Instead of the Bible.

 

[Selene]

The Bible doesn't teach that infants can be baptised,
God's way for baptism, Is,
Hear the gospel,
Believe it,
Repent and get saved through the rebirth.
Then and then only can one be baptised.
Mk 16: 16. Act 2: 38. Acts 8: 36--37. Acts 16: 30--33. Acts 19: 2--6..

How can an infant, hear, believe, repent and get born again then chose to be baptised??.

Entire housholds, DOES NOT include infants, Because God wouldn't go against His word, God and His word are one.

Your problem is, You believe the catholic teachings, Instead of the Bible.

Actually, there is a hint that it does teach infant baptism.

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children (teknon), and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The Greek word for "children" in this passage is "teknon". This Greek word is also used in Matthew 2:18.

Matthew 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping [for] her children, (teknon) and would not be comforted, because they are not.

Rachel was weeping for her children because Herold had killed all the little boys who were 2 years old and under.

 

[jiggyfly]

Actually, what the Bible does not teach is the fanciful "age of accountability". What the Bible does say is that entire families were baptized regardless of age, a good example being the jailer's family when Paul evangelized the jailer after an earthquake compromised his confinement.

But does scripture record any infants being baptized? Maybe these households were like mine, without any infants.

 

[Selene]

But does scripture record any infants being baptized? Maybe these households were like mine, without any infants.

I already showed you in scripture that the Greek word for "children" (teknon) can refer to children 2 years old and under. You are constantly telling me to look up the Greek word. And now that I did, suddenly the Greek word doesn't matter anymore?

 

[jiggyfly]

I already showed you in scripture that the Greek word for "children" (teknon) can refer to children 2 years old and under. You are constantly telling me to look up the Greek word. And now that I did, suddenly the Greek word doesn't matter anymore?

I made my post at the same time you did and did not have time to read yours till I made mine.

Now that I have read your post, who did Peter say should be baptized?

 

[Selene]

I made my post at the same time you did and did not have time to read yours till I made mine.

Now that I have read your post, who did Peter say should be baptized?

Everyone because he said that the promise of the Holy Spirit would be given to them as well as to their children.

 

[jiggyfly]

But thats not what the scripture you quoted states, your reading that into it. Who is the "them" that Peter was speaking to?

Can infants repent?