Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
@justbyfaith -- What study resources do you use? (Besides the Bible and your direct hotline to heaven)
Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.
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No one can be saved without putting their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption. That is a necessary prerequisite for salvation. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." (Acts 16:31).
If you are saved you had to do exactly that (and every Calvinist had to come to Christ in exactly that way). And you did not receive any imaginary "gift" of saving faith. It is through the power of the Gospel and the convicting and convincing power of the Holy Spirit that you believed on Christ. "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" (the Gospel) (Rom 10:17). Indeed, the entire 10th chapter of Romans tells us exactly how saving faith is generated.
If saving were a gift from God, then He would give that gift to absolutely everyone, and all would be saved. Because God desires the salvation of all mankind:For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (John 3:17)
"justbyfaith,
[Now you answer mine...]
okay
[So, the next step is for you to explain how by does not mean because of...because to me they seem to be speaking of things that are entirely synonymous in the context of the passage given.]
Because in the original language it is never written as because of faith...it is always written as By, or through faith. The reason is the natural man does not possess saving faith since the fall he cannot submit to God savingly.
He is dead to spiritual truth which is God given
Hebrews 12:2 [Full Chapter]
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
[I believe that when it says we enter into grace by faith, that it means because of faith.]
pisteos [by, or through] never pistin.[because of]....and justification is done from the outside to the sinner;
See Three Tenses of Salvation for more discussion of the concept of past tense salvation.
Having been justified (1344) (dikaioo from díkaios = just, righteous - the same root for words translated righteous, righteousness, justification, just, justifier) defines the act of declaring one not guilty. It means to pronounce and treat as righteous. It is not as some teach a "process".
The aorist tense identifies the justification as a one time event in the past when these believers were declared legally not guilty (Click for table on past, present and future salvation). Justification is not something that is going on now; it is something that happened and was completed the moment you were saved.
The passive voice indicates this declaration came from an outside Source, in this case God Himself. They were acquitted of the charges against them, the charges having been transferred (imputed, reckoned) to the account of their Sin Bearer, the sacrificial, substitutionary Lamb of God.
[And I would say that even if it does happen simultaneously, the issue is, which is the cause and which is the effect? I contend that the cause is faith and the effect is grace; whereas others who believe in your doctrine would say that the cause is grace and the effect is faith.]
That long list of solid verses Mjh offered shows the condition of fallen man...dead to spiritual things. You do not agree here. You have a sinner who is alive spiritually.
[But if you actually hold to the former, then I have no argument with you; I believe that you have conceded my point but are attempting to save face by saying that you always believed in it.]
Your position is historically condemned as false.
[Now you answer mine...]
okay
[So, the next step is for you to explain how by does not mean because of...because to me they seem to be speaking of things that are entirely synonymous in the context of the passage given.]
Because in the original language it is never written as because of faith...it is always written as By, or through faith. The reason is the natural man does not possess saving faith since the fall he cannot submit to God savingly.
He is dead to spiritual truth which is God given
Hebrews 12:2 [Full Chapter]
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
[I believe that when it says we enter into grace by faith, that it means because of faith.]
pisteos [by, or through] never pistin.[because of]....and justification is done from the outside to the sinner;
See Three Tenses of Salvation for more discussion of the concept of past tense salvation.
Having been justified (1344) (dikaioo from díkaios = just, righteous - the same root for words translated righteous, righteousness, justification, just, justifier) defines the act of declaring one not guilty. It means to pronounce and treat as righteous. It is not as some teach a "process".
The aorist tense identifies the justification as a one time event in the past when these believers were declared legally not guilty (Click for table on past, present and future salvation). Justification is not something that is going on now; it is something that happened and was completed the moment you were saved.
The passive voice indicates this declaration came from an outside Source, in this case God Himself. They were acquitted of the charges against them, the charges having been transferred (imputed, reckoned) to the account of their Sin Bearer, the sacrificial, substitutionary Lamb of God.
[And I would say that even if it does happen simultaneously, the issue is, which is the cause and which is the effect? I contend that the cause is faith and the effect is grace; whereas others who believe in your doctrine would say that the cause is grace and the effect is faith.]
That long list of solid verses Mjh offered shows the condition of fallen man...dead to spiritual things. You do not agree here. You have a sinner who is alive spiritually.
[But if you actually hold to the former, then I have no argument with you; I believe that you have conceded my point but are attempting to save face by saying that you always believed in it.]
Your position is historically condemned as false.
I am going to cut to the chase, because in all reality it does not matter if you believe what you believe, as long as it doesn't keep you out of the kingdom; if your belief gives you an excuse to never receive Christ as your Saviour and Lord, if it tells you that it is not necessary to call upon the name of the Lord; and if you have never called upon the name of the Lord: if your belief tells you that you are saved apart from placing your faith in Jesus Christ in the sense of putting the key to the lock of the door and opening it to enter into becoming a recipient of true grace of salvation; then know that your faith in Calvinism is preventing you from being saved and entering the kingdom: and if you are saved but are a preacher of Calvinism, then know that your preaching will keep people out of the kingdom, because they will believe that they are not responsible to receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour; because of the doctrine that they can have grace apart from that (since, in Calvinism, grace comes before faith, a man can be saved by grace apart from faith; and therefore faith isn't necessary for salvation by implication). And if you are keeping people out of the kingdom, how in the justice of the Lord will you be able to enter into the kingdom yourselves?
But I am going to give the Calvinist an invitation here to repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ, entering the door using the key; and if they choose not to enter in because they believe in Calvinism, then I suggest that the Lord foreordained that they would be condemned over not rejecting Calvinism when it mattered most to their salvation.
But here is the invitation: the Lord Jesus stands at the door and knocks on the door of your heart; He says to you that if you will hear His voice and open the door, He will come in to you and sup with you and you with Him: He is offering to come into your life and live His life in you and through you so that you can be morally unashamed: it will be Christ in you, the hope of glory if you accept the call and receive Him into your heart today. He will also make you a new creature in Him and you will be regenerated and renewed, and the Lord will take out of you the heart of stone and replace it with an heart of flesh.
Pray the prayer below (out loud) to receive Jesus as your Lord and Saviour:
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I call upon Your name for salvation. I ask You to come into my heart and be my Lord and Saviour. Show me who You are. Fill me with the Holy Ghost. Make me into a new creature in You. Save my soul from sin and set me free from the bondage of slavery to myself; and cause me to live according to Your love as I put my trust in You. Please wash me in Your blood and forgive me of all of my sin(s). I receive and confess You as my Saviour and Lord; and I believe that You are risen from the dead by the power of God. In Your holy and precious Name. Amen.
If you prayed that, the next step is for you to receive Acts 2:38 baptism so you can receive the Holy Ghost and absolute assurance of salvation.
Now if there are no takers among the Calvinists, I will suppose that it is because that in their total depravity they are opposed to the things of God and have utter inability to take the steps needed in order to enter into the kingdom. But if anyone actually takes the step of praying that and taking the subsequent steps to receive Acts 2:38 salvation, then I will know that it is a miracle of the Lord; that God truly reached out to them and bestowed upon them grace to receive salvation through faith and the obedience required to receive the Holy Ghost (see Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
But I am going to give the Calvinist an invitation here to repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ, entering the door using the key; and if they choose not to enter in because they believe in Calvinism, then I suggest that the Lord foreordained that they would be condemned over not rejecting Calvinism when it mattered most to their salvation.
But here is the invitation: the Lord Jesus stands at the door and knocks on the door of your heart; He says to you that if you will hear His voice and open the door, He will come in to you and sup with you and you with Him: He is offering to come into your life and live His life in you and through you so that you can be morally unashamed: it will be Christ in you, the hope of glory if you accept the call and receive Him into your heart today. He will also make you a new creature in Him and you will be regenerated and renewed, and the Lord will take out of you the heart of stone and replace it with an heart of flesh.
Pray the prayer below (out loud) to receive Jesus as your Lord and Saviour:
Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I call upon Your name for salvation. I ask You to come into my heart and be my Lord and Saviour. Show me who You are. Fill me with the Holy Ghost. Make me into a new creature in You. Save my soul from sin and set me free from the bondage of slavery to myself; and cause me to live according to Your love as I put my trust in You. Please wash me in Your blood and forgive me of all of my sin(s). I receive and confess You as my Saviour and Lord; and I believe that You are risen from the dead by the power of God. In Your holy and precious Name. Amen.
If you prayed that, the next step is for you to receive Acts 2:38 baptism so you can receive the Holy Ghost and absolute assurance of salvation.
Now if there are no takers among the Calvinists, I will suppose that it is because that in their total depravity they are opposed to the things of God and have utter inability to take the steps needed in order to enter into the kingdom. But if anyone actually takes the step of praying that and taking the subsequent steps to receive Acts 2:38 salvation, then I will know that it is a miracle of the Lord; that God truly reached out to them and bestowed upon them grace to receive salvation through faith and the obedience required to receive the Holy Ghost (see Acts of the Apostles 5:32).
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Are you in the Church of Christ, believing water baptism is necessary for salvation?
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
First off, I am already saved by God’s sovereign choice, not my mythical free will, but thanks anyways.
Plus, water does not add one cubit to my salvation, as the Church of Christ erroneously believe.
So what you are saying is that you are the exception to the rule -- that every sinner must obey the Gospel in order to be saved. You did not have to repent and be converted, so that your sins would be blotted out, and you did not have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Your salvation was magical instead of mythical.
He did not say anything of the kind. Once again you display total ignorance of the position. Not a surprise but just shows your hatred for truth.
Jun2u
Well-Known Member
Why do you base those who disagree with you to be Calvinists, instead of carefully evaluating the verses they present and share?
Romans 10:17 is a fundamental principle that is “NO ONE CAN BECOME SAVED UNLESS HE HEARS THE GOSPEL! However, this must be read in light of John 6:44. Natural man cannot hear the Gospel because he is spiritually dead. Only an individual whom God will draw will hear and believe the Gospel.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
Why don't you enlighten us as to what the position is?
Never mind, we know what it is...having heard it preached by you. You, being the ones doing the preaching, have not been hearing what you have been saying...you don't understand the implications of what it is that you are preaching.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
No, that’s what I know. If water seals the deal, then it’s grace + water = salvation.
That dog won’t hunt.
SovereignGrace
Certified Flunky
The Christ said something so pithy when He said, ”Repent and believe the gospel.”[Mark 1:15] Seeing that repentance itself is a gift of God, Acts of the Apostles 5:31, Acts of the Apostles 11:18, Romans 2:4, & 2 Timothy 2:25, and that I could never, and would never, repent in my hatred towards God, I realized it was all of God who caused me to repent and believe the gospel.
That' why I directed you attention to the entire 10th chapter of Romans many times. That is how God draws men to Christ. BUT YOU DON'T REALLY BELIEVE GOD, since you and your Calvinists do not believe that the Gospel is indeed the power of God unto salvation. You believe in magic, not the Gospel.
He talked about a "mythical free will", which means that he neither repented nor believed (as is required for all sinners). He was magically saved. So did you or did you not repent and believe the Gospel? And if you did it was a CHOICE OF YOUR FREE WILL. No one compelled you to obey the Gospel (if indeed you did).
It is the stiff-necked Calvinists who hate the truth. You have been shown scores of Scriptures refuting all your nonsensical teachings. But you continue to hold them tenaciously.
Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
Utter nonsense. Nearly everything you say is nonsense and an attack on God.
All you're doing is mocking God and his word. Close to blaspheming him. Several passages show faith is God's gift. Ephesians 1:19 is one for those who can exegete. 2 Peter 1:1 is crystal clear. We obtained faith. There are many more.
Your problem is that you cannot and will not give God all the glory and you're an enemy of his ways and Gospel. You mock God and his ways, and it's shameful.
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Preacher4Truth
Well-Known Member
He's hostile toward God and hates truth, you're correct.
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