Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
I think it's a little odd that women were totally excluded from the process of forming the New Testament canon. Do God or Jesus ever suggest women should be relegated to a lesser role?
Women Pastors / Teachers
- Thread starter Big Boy Johnson
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It makes no logical sense that God would care one whit about the gonads of His ministers. But logic is never invoked as a basis to deny ordination to women. Rather, the arguments against women serving as clergy are always premised on Scripture, primarily Paul’s letters, especially 1 Cor. 14:34-35: “the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.”
For several reasons, I’m not buying it. I think it far more logical to conclude that this comment is a culturally sensitive anachronism and not a timeless directive.
First, note that Paul is not purporting to speak from divine revelation on this point―and this is a guy who isn’t shy about declaring that his teachings come from the word of the Lord when that is so (as in 1 Cor. 7:10 and 1 Thess. 4:15). Rather, he cites “the Law” as his authority. (Yup, the same “Law” that he elsewhere says we are not under, see Rom. 6:14, Gal. 5:18.) What Old Testament directive supports him? I can find none aside from Gen. 3:16: “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” But there is nothing here about women keeping silent. Indeed, rather than a general statement about the relative position between men and women, this verse is about the special relation between husband and wife. If this is the “Law” that Paul meant to invoke, his words would only apply to married women. A female minister whose husband was not in the congregation can’t possibly run afoul of this “Law.”
Second is his use of “shameful” (αἰσχρὸνto) to describe the practice of women speaking in church. Shame is a human reaction to violating the mores of the times. 1 Cor. 11:16 uses the same word αἰσχρὸνto to describe a woman praying with her head uncovered.
Then there is 1 Tim. 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” This too looks to be specific to husband and wives. The word γυναικὶ used in this verse can be translated either as “woman” or as “wife” – the proper meaning being a matter of the passage’s context. No one would doubt for example, that γυναικὶ should be translated as “wife” in Matt. 19:5, or in 1 Cor. 7:3, 14, 27 and 33. So should it be in 1 Tim. 2:12, according to Luther: “Here we properly take ‘woman’ to mean ‘wife,’ as he reveals from his correlative phrase (v. 12) ‘to have authority over man,’ that is, over her husband. He calls the husband ‘man,’ so he calls the wife ‘woman.’ Where men and women have been joined together, there the men, not the women, ought to have authority. . . . He wants to save the order preserved by the world—that a man be the head of a woman, as 1 Corinthians 11:3 tells us.” Martin Luther, Lectures on 1 Timothy, found in Luther’s Works, vol. 28, Hilton C. Oswald ed. (Concordia, 1973), 276–77.
There is a contextual reason to translate γυναικὶ as “wife” here. Reading verses 8 through 14 together discloses that silence is not commanded upon women generally, since v. 9 speaks about how women should dress modestly, apparently while praying with men in public. A command that “women” should be silent a few verses later just makes little sense– but if it is “wives” being referred to a few verses later, then the entirety of the passage can be more easily saved from inconsistency. I prefer interpretations where the writer doesn’t contradict himself in the space of six verses! If we conclude that Paul isn’t trying to silence women generally, as 1 Cor. 11:5 shows, discussing the women wearing a veil while prophesying, then logic suggests that wives and husbands are being referred to in verses 11 through 14.
In any event, since he doesn’t purport to transmit a teaching received from divine revelation here, why should we care about what one Paul of Tarsus does or doesn’t permit? Paul is fallible, as any man is fallible. (Acts 10:34 relates Peter’s “Aha” moment of realizing that God shows no partiality. If Peter’s views could be in error, why not Paul’s? What makes him immune from error?)
Lastly, it is worth noting that Paul hasn’t been entirely consistent; he dispatched Phoebe, a deaconess from Cenchreae just a few miles from Corinth, to preach in Rome. (Rom. 16:1 uses the word διάκονον to describe her position.)
For several reasons, I’m not buying it. I think it far more logical to conclude that this comment is a culturally sensitive anachronism and not a timeless directive.
First, note that Paul is not purporting to speak from divine revelation on this point―and this is a guy who isn’t shy about declaring that his teachings come from the word of the Lord when that is so (as in 1 Cor. 7:10 and 1 Thess. 4:15). Rather, he cites “the Law” as his authority. (Yup, the same “Law” that he elsewhere says we are not under, see Rom. 6:14, Gal. 5:18.) What Old Testament directive supports him? I can find none aside from Gen. 3:16: “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” But there is nothing here about women keeping silent. Indeed, rather than a general statement about the relative position between men and women, this verse is about the special relation between husband and wife. If this is the “Law” that Paul meant to invoke, his words would only apply to married women. A female minister whose husband was not in the congregation can’t possibly run afoul of this “Law.”
Second is his use of “shameful” (αἰσχρὸνto) to describe the practice of women speaking in church. Shame is a human reaction to violating the mores of the times. 1 Cor. 11:16 uses the same word αἰσχρὸνto to describe a woman praying with her head uncovered.
Then there is 1 Tim. 2:12: “I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” This too looks to be specific to husband and wives. The word γυναικὶ used in this verse can be translated either as “woman” or as “wife” – the proper meaning being a matter of the passage’s context. No one would doubt for example, that γυναικὶ should be translated as “wife” in Matt. 19:5, or in 1 Cor. 7:3, 14, 27 and 33. So should it be in 1 Tim. 2:12, according to Luther: “Here we properly take ‘woman’ to mean ‘wife,’ as he reveals from his correlative phrase (v. 12) ‘to have authority over man,’ that is, over her husband. He calls the husband ‘man,’ so he calls the wife ‘woman.’ Where men and women have been joined together, there the men, not the women, ought to have authority. . . . He wants to save the order preserved by the world—that a man be the head of a woman, as 1 Corinthians 11:3 tells us.” Martin Luther, Lectures on 1 Timothy, found in Luther’s Works, vol. 28, Hilton C. Oswald ed. (Concordia, 1973), 276–77.
There is a contextual reason to translate γυναικὶ as “wife” here. Reading verses 8 through 14 together discloses that silence is not commanded upon women generally, since v. 9 speaks about how women should dress modestly, apparently while praying with men in public. A command that “women” should be silent a few verses later just makes little sense– but if it is “wives” being referred to a few verses later, then the entirety of the passage can be more easily saved from inconsistency. I prefer interpretations where the writer doesn’t contradict himself in the space of six verses! If we conclude that Paul isn’t trying to silence women generally, as 1 Cor. 11:5 shows, discussing the women wearing a veil while prophesying, then logic suggests that wives and husbands are being referred to in verses 11 through 14.
In any event, since he doesn’t purport to transmit a teaching received from divine revelation here, why should we care about what one Paul of Tarsus does or doesn’t permit? Paul is fallible, as any man is fallible. (Acts 10:34 relates Peter’s “Aha” moment of realizing that God shows no partiality. If Peter’s views could be in error, why not Paul’s? What makes him immune from error?)
Lastly, it is worth noting that Paul hasn’t been entirely consistent; he dispatched Phoebe, a deaconess from Cenchreae just a few miles from Corinth, to preach in Rome. (Rom. 16:1 uses the word διάκονον to describe her position.)
That would be having a problem with how God decided to do things.,..
1 Corinthians 11:8,9
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
Genesis 2:18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Woman was made for man, as a helper to man, as an assistant.
This is how God decided to do things... if we oppose the way He decided to do things, we open a door to the devil thru our disobedience and opposition to the Lord's order.
God loves men and women equally, but He decided to different roles for women verses men.
After seeing what the Lord has said in His Word... we know statements such as this did not come from the Holy Spirit!
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Yes, but we are talking about how God and Jesus decide things, not Paul or Peter or a group of Catholic cardinals.
OK, so throw the bible in the trash!
If you think God did not lead the Apostles to write what they wrote, then the Bible is complete garbage!
The biblical writers were not making stuff up and they were not writing their own thoughts.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Revelation 19:10
for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
2 Peter 1:21 is referring to that which Jesus (God's Word) has to say to mankind thru the written Word which is the oracles of God which came thru the descendants of Abraham
Romans 3:2
because that unto them were committed the oracles of God
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
No, don't throw the Bible in the trash. For openers, it quotes God and Jesus many times. We need to learn and obey.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Secondly, there is much to be learned from Paul and Peter. They don't have to be perfect. My pastor isn't perfect, but I don't go kicking him in the shin, or anything like that.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Third, you might not agree with all the opinions expressed by Paul or Peter, but the Bible never lies. (There is a heresy going about that some Bible writers had agendas of their own that caused them to misquote God.)
If what the Lord said thru the Apostles is not His perfect Word... in the trash with the Bible!
This would also mean Jesus Christ is not all powerful and just didn't have the ability to provide man kind with His Word iun print... it would mean Jesus just couldn't hack it.
This is exactly what satan is trying to do... get people to discount portions of scripture which makes an open door to come in to people's lives and bring in deception which is used to bring forth satanic attacks on people
Believing certain parts of God's Word is not true... is exactly how satan tricked Adam and Eve in to rebellion against God, setting their selves in opposition to God. In other words, this is a trick of the devil that will result in getting bit by demonic attack.
The Lord tells us in Ephesians 4:27 to give NO place to the devil, NO openings.... for obvious reasons!
God knows best and those that don't take heed to His Word and following Him in how He decided to do things are opening themselves up to darkness
Er... I'm not the one that is disagreeing with what the Lord Jesus Christ
has said in His teaching ministry thru the Apostles as found in God's written Word.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
Bible is God's word and it's his fault moses and paul make mistake. Or people like catholic church amde msitakes and people made things canon and told books like tobias not canon. People are those to blame, here were not saying is alright to say women can't teach which God never said. Women can't be cohen ( priest in hebrew ) God said that. You can discern John I believe the bible is law and it is written God told his people what to do. But when people say that they cannot love, preach his word, and say teach his word when God said in the old testament and Jesus said it in the new testament. Like prophets who said error like moses is still respected and consider athourity I respect him and still consider athority. And paul respect him and the others things he said God ( Jesus ) told him Paul I do believe and respect.
But the john the promblem here is that you used this not to help God's word with ladies but to say they cannot teach in temples :O Jesus did not say this. Follow God not the prophets or apostols but when they say . Compare to what God said and if they contradict him you know it cannot contradict scripture.
God doesn't contradict himself never -_- it humans who fail not God. Not saying God is wrong niether the bible. The apostle said something could be his opinion and it was
1 Timothy 2:11-15:
I do not permit !
he cannot contradict God comamnds that he tells to preach his word in old testament and new testament to women and men. You can discern john and keep obeying God doing good. You can't tell women they can't preach or anyone God told all the peopel to preach his word and teach his word. And here we see Paul contradicts simple he said but the bible continues to be the word of God and law and we must discern so we cannot contradict what God says and the teaching of apostles and prophets contradict what he said.
Those things happen Everyone can Discern and still obey the apostles and the prophets but they cannot contradict Jesus. Here john this not a talk about women preaching but you telling people that you cannot question and the is that and God made man only athourity simple. No no no no You can't do that with athourity of God your doing things like the catholics and telling to buy repentances and things are like that period. We can discern and you can too and you had no intention to help go look for God but just womenbashing. Telling they can't teach or preach, Don't do that brother John. Women make msitaeks and man but Jesus is helps us all look for his word and we must love and do things like Jesus.
Not saying women or men can't preach or teach in temples. Your are forgiving for your attempts not preach.
But the john the promblem here is that you used this not to help God's word with ladies but to say they cannot teach in temples :O Jesus did not say this. Follow God not the prophets or apostols but when they say . Compare to what God said and if they contradict him you know it cannot contradict scripture.
God doesn't contradict himself never -_- it humans who fail not God. Not saying God is wrong niether the bible. The apostle said something could be his opinion and it was
1 Timothy 2:11-15:
I do not permit !
he cannot contradict God comamnds that he tells to preach his word in old testament and new testament to women and men. You can discern john and keep obeying God doing good. You can't tell women they can't preach or anyone God told all the peopel to preach his word and teach his word. And here we see Paul contradicts simple he said but the bible continues to be the word of God and law and we must discern so we cannot contradict what God says and the teaching of apostles and prophets contradict what he said.
Those things happen Everyone can Discern and still obey the apostles and the prophets but they cannot contradict Jesus. Here john this not a talk about women preaching but you telling people that you cannot question and the is that and God made man only athourity simple. No no no no You can't do that with athourity of God your doing things like the catholics and telling to buy repentances and things are like that period. We can discern and you can too and you had no intention to help go look for God but just womenbashing. Telling they can't teach or preach, Don't do that brother John. Women make msitaeks and man but Jesus is helps us all look for his word and we must love and do things like Jesus.
Not saying women or men can't preach or teach in temples. Your are forgiving for your attempts not preach.
Er... I'm not the one that said some of the things the Apostles said "doesn't have to be perfect" meaning some of the things they say is not from the Lord.
Those that worship the Lord... accept what He says!
One cannot have a relationship with the Lord without honoring and believing His Word.
If you did, then what the Lord Jesus said thru Paul... about church leaders being men, you would accept that.
As it stands now, you speak as though you don't believe the Lord spoke thru Paul all the time and that sometimes Paul just made stuff up that wasn't from the Lord.
That's why I was saying... if one is going to believe that, then they may as well throw the Bible in the trash because IF it were true that some of the things the Apostles wrote were not directly from the Lord Jesus... IF THAT WERE TRUE... then the Bible cannot be trusted and we have no way of knowing what writings were from the Lord and what writings were just made up stuff from the Apostles
Unless one believes ALL of God's Word came from the Lord, then there's no basis for faith.
Unless one believes the Lord Jesus Christ is all powerful and capable of putting His Truth in written form (the Bible)... then one really couldn't even be a believer since they have no other place to know what God said other than the Bible.
Anyway... if you want to pick and choose which part of the Bible you think are true while believing other parts are not true... such as church leaders are men... than that's really too bad for you. I feel sorry for those that have fallen prey to this trick of the devil.
You don't know the whole bible John -_- read the whole book because you incomplete study just brought debate uneccesary no real lecture just no to women can't do things and they can. So you wrong on what your doing -_-.
The topic of discussion is about women not being anointed by the Lord to be pastors that teach deacons, or church leaders, so these scriptures stand as God's instructions on this topic:
1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve
And you'll notice in 1 Timothy 2:12,13 this is NOT one of the few times Paul is saying he is speaking his own opinion because He is in fact being led by the Lord Jesus to lead the church in what is being said... so 1 Timothy 2:12,13 stands as being from the Lord.
God knows best and those that don't take heed to His Word and following Him in how He decided to do things are opening themselves up to darkness.
1 Timothy 3:1-13
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
One that rules well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Titus 1:6-9
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
1 Timothy 2:12,13
I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve
And you'll notice in 1 Timothy 2:12,13 this is NOT one of the few times Paul is saying he is speaking his own opinion because He is in fact being led by the Lord Jesus to lead the church in what is being said... so 1 Timothy 2:12,13 stands as being from the Lord.
God knows best and those that don't take heed to His Word and following Him in how He decided to do things are opening themselves up to darkness.
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
God and Jesus are quoted often in the Bible. I try to do exactly what they say.
Notice that Paul says to Timothy "I do not allow," rather than "God does not allow." So we cannot tell whether he is counseling his protege based on personal preference or divine command.
And notice the reason he gives: "For Adam was formed first, then Eve." Why that makes not only Eve, but every woman ever born, subservient to man is not supported by any logical argument Paul bothered to develop, because he can't. It makes no sense.
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