Works vs. Good works

[Insight]

If in a rowboat on a lake and using only one oar your likely to just turn circles. But if you put faith and works in motion you'll get somewhere.

Love your analogy!

James likens it to looking into a mirror (Scriptures) while labouring hard to produce fruits to the honour and glory of the Lord.

You cannot just look for knowledge (faith) and not work!

You cannot just work without the gaining of knowledge (faith)!

 

[lawrance]

FHI said: "The reason being I am reading a lot from folks on this board (or reading into what they say) that faith is justified by works, or proven by works or at the very least works are evidence of faith. I do agree that if you have faith, works of the spirit will come. The problem is with the identification of faith by works."

I touched on that in post #14.

You assume that showing that you have faith by being conscientious to have works leads to pride. But while a man can become prideful over his works were he was not at first prideful, or in the very start performs his works motivate by his pridefulness, it is yet not the fault of the good works. It is the fault of his carnal mind causing twiated thinking whereby he desirres credit to himself.

The good works do not cause it at all. Our faith would be cowardly if we had to run and hide from good works fearing that we could not perform them without becoming prideful.

Faith works out of the love contained it. That is what Paul told us at Galatians 5:6. What James told them about showing his faith by his works amounts to saying, 'You say you have faith that is devoid of love. I will show you my faith by the love which is supposed to be a part of faith.'

If you know anything about love you know it cannot help but to perform good works toward others, not of pride, but of genuine fellow feeling. That is the Bible's teaching concerning love.

Galatians 5:6 "For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love."

The thinking that says good works cause pride is backward thinking. It is untrue. Sure, a man who at first was performing the good works of faith motivated by the love that goes hand in hand with faith can at times turn back to his carnal mind and switch to pride being his motive for works instead of the love that belongs to faith. But that is not the fault of the good works. It is the fault of the man not be cautious of his carnal nature.

James knew that. Those he was speaking to did not understand that and they blamed the works as many on this board blame the works. And that puts them in danger of being nothing but wagging tongues that only claim to have faith while the evidence is that they are nothing more than that fig tree that Jesus cursed for not bearing fruit.

Just think of faith as a fig tree, the sap that flows in it to promote the growth of fruit as love, and the fruit (the figs) as the good works of the tree/sap relationship (the faith/love relationship).

I can say the tree produced figs as in faith produced good works. Or I can say the sap is strong in that tree as seen by its figs.

You will have no love but your own pseudo brand of it if you have no faith. Apart from faith you will not learn from God what true love is and so it would be only your idea of what love is.

This idea that a living man needs not works is like sayng a fruit tree needs no fruit. Man was made in the image of God. 1 John 4:8 tells us God is love. If we have our roots firmly set in God, then we love. We love not by mere word, but by deed. Faith sets our roots in God. Love must show or the roots must not really be set in God. Love shows by the good works it does for others. And it evidences that our faith was really there to set our roots in God.

Jesus says i am the vine and you are the branchers you must bear fruit If you are in Christ, because if you don't then you are not in Christ.

 

[FHII]

I liken it more to two men in a canoe paddling in opposite directions. Paul would've agreed because he said works frustrate grace. Again, if you are talking about 'good works" (which only God will see, not man), then ok.

 

[Perspectives]

Love your analogy!

James likens it to looking into a mirror (Scriptures) while labouring hard to produce fruits to the honour and glory of the Lord.

You cannot just look for knowledge (faith) and not work!

You cannot just work without the gaining of knowledge (faith)!

Ya, sometimes I wonder about how often the simplicity of the scriptures evade His people. I think we have had alot of help complicating things. II Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning craftiness, so your minds may be corupted by the simplicity that is in Christ.

I liken it more to two men in a canoe paddling in opposite directions. Paul would've agreed because he said works frustrate grace. Again, if you are talking about 'good works" (which only God will see, not man), then ok.

That "WORKS" for me! Ya, there is none that does good, no not one Rom. 3:12.

 

[Foreigner]

"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ - Matt. 25:41


-- You cannot be saved by works, but works are expected of those who are saved.

 

[aspen]

faith is work. Also, work is based on faith in God, mercy, justice, and the power of love. How is it possible to separate one concept from the other? How is it possible to determine which one comes first? It is a 'chicken and egg' argument.

Grace saves us. Our response to God's Grace should be love, which nurtures faith and encourages other works.

We get in trouble when we respond to God's Grace by loving our Ego / false self instead of God. Instead of working to love God and neighbor, we lavish our attention on supporting our own Ego.

God does not recognize our false self.

 

[FHII]

"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ - Matt. 25:41


-- You cannot be saved by works, but works are expected of those who are saved.

Loving and caring for the brethren is something that is a "good work", which I believe I talked about earlier. The reason is that God told every one of his believers through the Bible that he was in them individually. He is also in each one of the brethren (and not everyone is your brother), and so when you care for them, you are caring for God as well. Just as when they care for you, they are caring for God.

faith is work. Also, work is based on faith in God, mercy, justice, and the power of love. How is it possible to separate one concept from the other? How is it possible to determine which one comes first? It is a 'chicken and egg' argument.

Grace saves us. Our response to God's Grace should be love, which nurtures faith and encourages other works.

We get in trouble when we respond to God's Grace by loving our Ego / false self instead of God. Instead of working to love God and neighbor, we lavish our attention on supporting our own Ego.

God does not recognize our false self.

Aspen, you may say that "faith is work", But the Bible says faith is not of works, we are not justified by works,we don't receive the spirit by works an works frusterate grace. But you say faith is work? Again, I can agree with it being a good work, and I liked Prentis' definition of faith having to do with understanding. I also liked your earlier description of the terms "good works" and "works". I agree, though it seemed heavy on love for others (though in a good way) and less on praise of God and understanding of God. Though I could be wrong.

Faith does not encourage works of the law nor is it justified or demonstrated by works of the law. If James wants to show someone else (other than God) his faith by his works, he's doing it wrong. God will see it, but no one else will.

 

[aspen]

Loving and caring for the brethren is something that is a "good work", which I believe I talked about earlier. The reason is that God told every one of his believers through the Bible that he was in them individually. He is also in each one of the brethren (and not everyone is your brother), and so when you care for them, you are caring for God as well. Just as when they care for you, they are caring for God.



Aspen, you may say that "faith is work", But the Bible says faith is not of works, we are not justified by works,

Faith is not 'works of men' - the Pharisees were guilty of doing works of men and teaching their followers how to do it too. Works of men support the ego. Faith and works that are directed towards God rather than our own egos, are required by God to be sanctified, or made citizens of Heaven.

Relationships require that participation of all parties - The Holy Spirit teaches our heart how to love and we practice these teachings - practicing our sanctification.

 

[FHII]

Faith is not 'works of men' - the Pharisees were guilty of doing works of men and teaching their followers how to do it too. Works of men support the ego. Faith and works that are directed towards God rather than our own egos, are required by God to be sanctified, or made citizens of Heaven.

Relationships require that participation of all parties - The Holy Spirit teaches our heart how to love and we practice these teachings - practicing our sanctification.

Sorry Aspen.... I didn't finish my thought before I accidently hit reply.... Please read the edited message.

 

[aspen]

Thanks for directing me to your completed post - I post before I complete my thoughts are the time.

I agree with you that we are not justified by works. Christ justifies us through His sacrifice. After the relationship is started by God, our participation is necessary. We have to practice loving in order to become the lovers we were created to be. I think where we are in disagreement is concrning the requirements for salvation. I believe justification and sanctification are both required.

 

[FHII]

Thanks for directing me to your completed post - I post before I complete my thoughts are the time.

I agree with you that we are not justified by works. Christ justifies us through His sacrifice. After the relationship is started by God, our participation is necessary. We have to practice loving in order to become the lovers we were created to be. I think where we are in disagreement is concrning the requirements for salvation. I believe justification and sanctification are both required.

It happens from time to time. It was my fault....

So, since you believe we are in disagreement concerning the requirements for salvation, what do you believe my belief is on those requirements? What beliefs do I have on justification and sanctificaton that you disagree with?

 

[aspen]

It happens from time to time. It was my fault....

So, since you believe we are in disagreement concerning the requirements for salvation, what do you believe my belief is on those requirements? What beliefs do I have on justification and sanctificaton that you disagree with?

Well, most non-catholics believe that Justification is the only thing that is necessary for salvation. Sanctification is simply the natural result of authentic justification.

 

[Prentis]

I am always puzzled at the popular belief that somehow, because we started following Jesus, we are guaranteed to follow to the end. That is what we say, after all, when we consider that unless a man continues to the end, he never really started.

We are freed in Christ, but that is for good works, for this we are called. We are called to be one with God, and to do the works of the Father. There is such a fuss today the moment one talks about works, but the issue, as I see it, is not that someone does right, but that someone justifies themselves for it.

Take for example the sheep and the goats. The sheep did what is right, and did not even know it. Thus they didn't count themselves righteous, but just loved out of their heart, as the good samaritan. For this reason God had mercy on them. The goats on the other hand, did evil without knowing it, and thus tasted the second death.

The other funny thing is those can't be christian, because they don't know Christ. Notice, they are called the 'Nations'. It is the judgment of the world.

Those in Christ are judged differently. We are judged according to how we build. Yes, that assumes works. The question is by which power do we work, the Spirit or the flesh?

 

[aspen]

I am always puzzled at the popular belief that somehow, because we started following Jesus, we are guaranteed to follow to the end. That is what we say, after all, when we consider that unless a man continues to the end, he never really started.

We are freed in Christ, but that is for good works, for this we are called. We are called to be one with God, and to do the works of the Father. There is such a fuss today the moment one talks about works, but the issue, as I see it, is not that someone does right, but that someone justifies themselves for it.

Take for example the sheep and the goats. The sheep did what is right, and did not even know it. Thus they didn't count themselves righteous, but just loved out of their heart, as the good samaritan. For this reason God had mercy on them. The goats on the other hand, did evil without knowing it, and thus tasted the second death.

The other funny thing is those can't be christian, because they don't know Christ. Notice, they are called the 'Nations'. It is the judgment of the world.

Those in Christ are judged differently. We are judged according to how we build. Yes, that assumes works. The question is by which power do we work, the Spirit or the flesh?

Ha! Be careful - Rome is right around the corner