World Communism Is Not Dead

[aspen]

Your false love of Communism has bewitched you even against Christ's Authority...

Ps 2:6-12
6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto Me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten Thee.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give Thee the heathen for Thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for Thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and ye perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him.
(KJV)

Rev 2:26-27
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth My works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of My Father.
(KJV)

Rev 19:15-16
15 And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations: and He shall rule them with a rod of iron: and He treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And He hath on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
(KJV)


Christ Jesus is not coming meek as a Lamb this next time. He is coming to reign with "a rod of iron", as KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. That means as Supreme Divine Monarch, even as Supreme Lord.

So you can go back and tell your Communist Party friends their little game of pushing pacifist doctrines into Christ's Church today, and propaganda against God's appointed kings ain't gonna' help them when Christ Jesus appears with that rod of iron and sharp sword.

Oh brother...

You cannot be serious? What other type of leader besides a king was known when those verses were written? Cesar of Cesar would not have worked since Cesar was hostile towards Christianity.

Also, ruling with a rod of iron sounds like a dictatorship to me.....no thanks. Sounds like you are looking forward to living under the rule of a tyrant and at the same time you are accusing me of pushing worldly communism - oh, the irony! Or maybe the 'rod' of irony in your dreams....


Your vision sounds like an eternity of misery under an insecure, tyrannical bully, who asserts His power by demanding worship He deserves! I think your excitement over this proposition says more about you than your god.

 

[Foreigner]

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[font="Verdana][size="2"]Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Mao Tse-Tung[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]If Socialism can only be realized when the intellectual development of all the people permits it, then we shall not see Socialism for at least five hundred years.[/size][/font][font="Verdana][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Vladimir Lenin[/size][/font]
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[font="Verdana][size="2"]When one makes a Revolution, one cannot mark time; one must always go forward - or go back. He who now talks about the "freedom of the press" goes backward, and halts our headlong course towards Socialism.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Vladimir Lenin[/size][/font]
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The goal of socialism is communism.
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Vladimir Lenin[/size][/font]
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[font="Verdana][size="2"]Death is the solution to all problems. No man - no problem.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Joseph Stalin[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Joseph Stalin[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Everyone imposes his own system as far as his army can reach.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Joseph Stalin[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]I am not a communist and neither is the revolutionary movement.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Fidel Castro[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]It was patriotism, not communism, that inspired me.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Ho Chi Minh[/size][/font]

[font="Verdana][size="2"]You will kill 10 of our men, and we will kill 1 of yours, and in the end it will be you who tire of it.[/size][/font]
[font="Verdana][size="2"]Ho Chi Minh[/size][/font]

These are the words of dictators - not true Communists. It is interesting that none of them actually claimed their countries had achieved Communism.

-- Oh please LOL

For Pete's Sake Aspen, these dictators can say anything they want and will say anything they want to manipulate opinons of those dumb enough to believe them.
They are (or were) lying mass murdering dictators.
But they are the shining example of the end result of each of those country's best attempts at pure Communism.

The REASON despots like this end up in charge of these "great Communist experiments" is because the only way to keep anything resembling a Communist system in place for a group larger than a small commune is to have a strong central leadership or leader.

And when it begins to inevitably fail and people don't want to participate, it takes a dictator to keep it in place. Freedoms must be curtailed and those wishing to flee the system must be stopped.

The statement that these are dictatorships and "true Communism" has never been tried is absolutely false. These dictators have come to power every single time the true Communism has ben tried.


I don't understand you.

First you say earlier in this thread - and I quote: "So you are really under the illusion the Communism is somehow more evil than other man-made government systems?!?! "

That implies that the freedoms of an imperfect Commnist system are no more beneficial or detrimental than the freedoms granted under an imperfect Capitalist Republic (that you called a Corporate Oligarchy).

- Freedom of press
- Free elections/the right to vote for whomever you wish
- Freedom to protest publically (even for those not legally in this country)
- Freedom to a fair trial
- Freedom to leave the country if you wish
- Freedom to attend the church of your choice
- Freedom to go to the school you choose
- Freedom to study whatever you wish
- Freedom to choose any profession you want
- Freedom to live anywhere you want
- Freedom to read whatever you want

These are ALL freedoms we enjoy under a "Corporate Oligarchy" (as you call it) that have NEVER been offered even under the most aggressive attempt at Communism.
The simple fact is, Yes, there are other man-made systems that are (much) better than communism.

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Monks and nuns have committed to a life of obedience and community property. God is not incapable with Communism. They care for each other's needs - including end of life care - in return they are cared for. Communism is the closest comparison.

-- You leave out a very important point. Monks and Nuns join knowing they are surrending EVERYTHING.
The amount of work - decided for them
The type of work they do - decided for them
The clothes they wear - decided for them
Personal items allowed to keep - decided for them
When and where they eat - decided for them
Time off (if any) - decided for them
Personal finances - are you kidding?


For it to work these people must totally surrender every part of their life to this sytem. God doesn't call us to that that. Why?
Because then the system then becomes the focus, not God.
The system decides what is best for the person, not God.
The welfare of the system becomes the focus, not God.
This system decides where you work, how long you work, what job you will have, what, if any free time you will have, etc, not God
You surrender your choice of how much work you do, your choice of the work you do, basically everything - to a group, not to God.

And if you feel God calls you to something else and the leaership of the group disagrees you either:
1. Surrender to their will and don't do it
2. Do it anyway and be punished by the group
3. Leave the group voluntarily
4. Be forced out of the group for disobedience

The choice of communal living within the early Christian church was just that - a choice. and not required by God.

The simple fact is, more has been done to care for our fellow man outside communist or communal systems than have EVER been done on the inside.

The only way to have the system work within a communal or communist system is to surrender everything and trust the judgement of man, not God.

 

[veteran]

Good post Foreigner,

Theory of Communism is just a theory, nothing more. It's impractical and the life of Karl Marx even showed it, since he allowed himself and his family to almost starve to death in writing his Communist Manifesto.

That's why those who support the idea have to support it as a 'theory', because it has never been manifested in reality, nor will it ever be.

The theory of Communism is only a 'tool' for a more sinister agenda hiding behind it. Enough people would never support it if they knew what the real agenda behind is, i.e., that of a one world government in prep for the coming of the final Antichrist.

What will probably surprise those who love the theory of Communism, is when the real shakers behind it setup their 'king of the world' afterwards. That's the ultimate reason for the 'tool' of Communism. It's to setup up a false monarch on this earth over all nations, the final Antichrist false messiah.

Isn't it amazing how today's Communist nations already show that working, with supporting the radical nations of Islam, like Syria, Iran, radical Muslims in Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, etc.? How is it Communism would support religion, especially since Marxist Communism professed that 'religion' is the opiate of the masses?

It's all a big 'ho--ax'!

 

[aspen]

They are (or were) lying mass murdering dictators.

Thanks for making my point. They were all dictators before they used communist rhetoric as a disguise for their planned despotism.

I don't understand you. First you say earlier in this thread - and I quote: "So you are really under the illusion the Communism is somehow more evil than other man-made government systems?!?! "

Absolutely true.

That implies that the freedoms of an imperfect Commnist system are no more beneficial or detrimental than the freedoms granted under an imperfect Capitalist Republic (that you called a Corporate Oligarchy).

Absolutely not.

These are ALL freedoms we enjoy under a "Corporate Oligarchy" (as you call it) that have NEVER been offered even under the most aggressive attempt at Communism.
The simple fact is, Yes, there are other man-made systems that are (much) better than communism.

Did I ever say that living, as a citizen in a Corporate Oligarchy was worse than living as a citizen in a Dictatorship masquerading as a Communist State?

-- You leave out a very important point. Monks and Nuns join knowing they are surrending EVERYTHING.
The amount of work - decided for them
The type of work they do - decided for them
The clothes they wear - decided for them
Personal items allowed to keep - decided for them
When and where they eat - decided for them
Time off (if any) - decided for them
Personal finances - are you kidding?

Yep. So what is your point?

For it to work these people must totally surrender every part of their life to this sytem. God doesn't call us to that that. Why?
Because then the system then becomes the focus, not God.
The system decides what is best for the person, not God.
The welfare of the system becomes the focus, not God.
This system decides where you work, how long you work, what job you will have, what, if any free time you will have, etc, not God
You surrender your choice of how much work you do, your choice of the work you do, basically everything - to a group, not to God.

Ridiculous. Absurd. This point is so weak, I am not sure where to start:

1. So when all of your needs are being met and you have all the time in the world to focus on God, how exactly is you focus taken away from God?
2. Monks and nuns sacrifice their lives and focus on worldly pursuits to live a life of total devotion to God - and you think they are worried about their loss of freedom? They are the most free people in the world - their freedom is in Christ.
3. Good thing Peter did hand this list of worries to Christ when He said "Come follow me"

And if you feel God calls you to something else and the leaership of the group disagrees you either:
1. Surrender to their will and don't do it
2. Do it anyway and be punished by the group
3. Leave the group voluntarily
4. Be forced out of the group for disobedience

Sounds like every work environment I've ever been apart of. Makes me wonder if you have ever worked for someone.

The choice of communal living within the early Christian church was just that - a choice. and not required by God.

It is still a choice to follow Christ, which involves personal sacrifice, today. Mark 10:17-22

The simple fact is, more has been done to care for our fellow man outside communist or communal systems than have EVER been done on the inside.

You just do not get it.

1. For the third time: Communism has never been tried. Communism will not work on the State level, in this world.
2. Corporations are just as damaging as Dictatorships to Third World nations, the environment, the poor, and countries that are useful to them.
3. Simply because you happen to personally benefit from living under a Corporation Oligarchy doesn't mean it is a good government - German citizens under Hitler had it pretty good too - business was booming.

The only way to have the system work within a communal or communist system is to surrender everything and trust the judgement of man, not God.

No kidding! That is why I am advocating for God to be in charge - just like in a monastery.

Good post Foreigner,

Theory of Communism is just a theory, nothing more. It's impractical and the life of Karl Marx even showed it, since he allowed himself and his family to almost starve to death in writing his Communist Manifesto.

That's why those who support the idea have to support it as a 'theory', because it has never been manifested in reality, nor will it ever be.

The theory of Communism is only a 'tool' for a more sinister agenda hiding behind it. Enough people would never support it if they knew what the real agenda behind is, i.e., that of a one world government in prep for the coming of the final Antichrist.

What will probably surprise those who love the theory of Communism, is when the real shakers behind it setup their 'king of the world' afterwards. That's the ultimate reason for the 'tool' of Communism. It's to setup up a false monarch on this earth over all nations, the final Antichrist false messiah.

Isn't it amazing how today's Communist nations already show that working, with supporting the radical nations of Islam, like Syria, Iran, radical Muslims in Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Sudan, etc.? How is it Communism would support religion, especially since Marxist Communism professed that 'religion' is the opiate of the masses?

It's all a big 'ho--ax'!

I completely agree.

 

[Foreigner]

Thanks for making my point. They were all dictators before they used communist rhetoric as a disguise for their planned despotism.

-- You ignore the fact that the reason a number of these dictators were able to come to power is because the "grand experiment" of "true communism" failed, and miserably, leaving the opening for people such as this.l

Yep. So what is your point?

-- That the communal living in a monastery is NOT the favored choice of God for Christians.
Why? Kinda hard to "spread the Gospel to all nations" when you are locked away filling your day with manual tasks.
Having another human make decisions for every single solitary facet of your life is not God's blueprint.

Ridiculous. Absurd. This point is so weak, I am not sure where to start:

-- Trust me. In reading your attempts to justify your position, that sums up my feelings to a 'T'.

1. So when all of your needs are being met and you have all the time in the world to focus on God, how exactly is you focus taken away from God?
2. Monks and nuns sacrifice their lives and focus on worldly pursuits to live a life of total devotion to God - and you think they are worried about their loss of freedom? They are the most free people in the world - their freedom is in Christ.
3. Good thing Peter did hand this list of worries to Christ when He said "Come follow me"

-- That may be well for them, but the point - and I do wish you would learn to focus - is that that is not the model for all Christians. Never has been.

As far as nuns and priests, you forget that I was extensively involved in the Catholic church in my early years.
I worked at the "Sisters of Mary of the Presentation" Convent outside of Valley City, ND and I can give you MULTIPLE accounts of the displeasure, pain, doubt, and frustration of scores of the sisters with what they felt was their "calling." Many left their "God-given calling" and it wasn't because they were "the most free peole in the world."
Self-doubt - extreme punishments - stiffling of questions - responsibilities chosen for them that had adverse effects - etc.

In Fargo, ND, roughly sixty miles away, not too far from where I live, they have a very large center for priests that have have emotional issues, have been accused of various crimes, are being treated for alcohol or drug abuse, or are sent to "reflect and still be of use to the church" after accusation of molestation or abuse.

Bet it would be hard to find a priest there singing about "their freedom in Christ."

Also, for a number of years I regularly attended SEARCH weakends throughout the tri-state area, mainly doing music ministry. Can't tell you how many priests were raging alcoholics, bitter task masters, or simply broken men.

Sorry, but your blanket utopian idea of monestaries is hardly the norm.

Sounds like every work environment I've ever been apart of. Makes me wonder if you have ever worked for someone.

Your statement was in response to me saying this:
And if you feel God calls you to something else and the leaership of the group disagrees you either:
1. Surrender to their will and don't do it
2. Do it anyway and be punished by the group
3. Leave the group voluntarily
4. Be forced out of the group for disobedience


Your snide comment "Makes me wonder if you have ever worked for someone" was something I thought you said you were above. My mistake.

Second off, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you would understand the difference between regular business practices in a normal work environment and those practices within a monastery or convent. Again, my mistake.

It is still a choice to follow Christ, which involves personal sacrifice, today. Mark 10:17-22

-- I am sorry that I have to be the one to educate you, but following Christ - regardless of how or where you feel called to do it - will involve "personal sacrifice." He guarantees it.

And in a world where Christ has called us to "spread the Gospel to all nations," it is rather difficult to do when you are stuck living as a shut-in cleaning dishes, weeding the garden, scrubbing floors, etc. with little or no outside contact.

You just do not get it.
1. For the third time: Communism has never been tried. Communism will not work on the State level, in this world.

-- And for the third time I must correct you and state is has been tried - and failed. Hence the dictators filling the void of those failed experiments.

3. Simply because you happen to personally benefit from living under a Corporation Oligarchy doesn't mean it is a good government - German citizens under Hitler had it pretty good too - business was booming.

-- What a dishonest implication. If I benefit from the corruption of misdeeds of that "Corporate Oligarchy" you would be correct.
However - and I am sorry to have to to explain the simple facts of life to you - freedom of religion, freedom to criticize your government, freedom to not worry about the knock at 3:00in the morning are NOT the fruits of corrupt practices of a Corporate Oligarchy.

It is my sincere hope that you are being intentionally obtuse and are not really this clueless.

Oh, and as far as Hitler, the people had it "pretty good" if you take away the fact that from the time Hitler took power and during the years of prosperity before the war, they had already surrendered scores of freedoms including freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom to question the government, freedom of travel, etc. This is your definition of "hat it pretty good?" How pathetic.

And during the time they "had it pretty good" scores were being sent to concentration camps. Not just the Jews, but the gypsies, homosexuals, those that opposed the government, etc.

Oh, and I am pretty sure that from the time they started to be criticized in the press and forced to wear the yellow stars (years before the war started) the Jews weren't feeling that they "had it pretty good."

It appears you do not even have an astute grasp of the obvious.

 

[aspen]

-- You ignore the fact that the reason a number of these dictators were able to come to power is because the "grand experiment" of "true communism" failed, and miserably, leaving the opening for people such as this.l
-- That the communal living in a monastery is NOT the favored choice of God for Christians.
Why? Kinda hard to "spread the Gospel to all nations" when you are locked away filling your day with manual tasks.
Having another human make decisions for every single solitary facet of your life is not God's blueprint.
-- Trust me. In reading your attempts to justify your position, that sums up my feelings to a 'T'.
-- That may be well for them, but the point - and I do wish you would learn to focus - is that that is not the model for all Christians. Never has been.

As far as nuns and priests, you forget that I was extensively involved in the Catholic church in my early years.
I worked at the "Sisters of Mary of the Presentation" Convent outside of Valley City, ND and I can give you MULTIPLE accounts of the displeasure, pain, doubt, and frustration of scores of the sisters with what they felt was their "calling." Many left their "God-given calling" and it wasn't because they were "the most free peole in the world."
Self-doubt - extreme punishments - stiffling of questions - responsibilities chosen for them that had adverse effects - etc.

In Fargo, ND, roughly sixty miles away, not too far from where I live, they have a very large center for priests that have have emotional issues, have been accused of various crimes, are being treated for alcohol or drug abuse, or are sent to "reflect and still be of use to the church" after accusation of molestation or abuse.

Bet it would be hard to find a priest there singing about "their freedom in Christ."

Also, for a number of years I regularly attended SEARCH weakends throughout the tri-state area, mainly doing music ministry. Can't tell you how many priests were raging alcoholics, bitter task masters, or simply broken men.

Sorry, but your blanket utopian idea of monestaries is hardly the norm.

Your statement was in response to me saying this:
And if you feel God calls you to something else and the leaership of the group disagrees you either:
1. Surrender to their will and don't do it
2. Do it anyway and be punished by the group
3. Leave the group voluntarily
4. Be forced out of the group for disobedience


Your snide comment "Makes me wonder if you have ever worked for someone" was something I thought you said you were above. My mistake.

Second off, I gave you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you would understand the difference between regular business practices in a normal work environment and those practices within a monastery or convent. Again, my mistake.

-- I am sorry that I have to be the one to educate you, but following Christ - regardless of how or where you feel called to do it - will involve "personal sacrifice." He guarantees it.

And in a world where Christ has called us to "spread the Gospel to all nations," it is rather difficult to do when you are stuck living as a shut-in cleaning dishes, weeding the garden, scrubbing floors, etc. with little or no outside contact.
-- And for the third time I must correct you and state is has been tried - and failed. Hence the dictators filling the void of those failed experiments.

-- What a dishonest implication. If I benefit from the corruption of misdeeds of that "Corporate Oligarchy" you would be correct.
However - and I am sorry to have to to explain the simple facts of life to you - freedom of religion, freedom to criticize your government, freedom to not worry about the knock at 3:00in the morning are NOT the fruits of corrupt practices of a Corporate Oligarchy.

It is my sincere hope that you are being intentionally obtuse and are not really this clueless.

Oh, and as far as Hitler, the people had it "pretty good" if you take away the fact that from the time Hitler took power and during the years of prosperity before the war, they had already surrendered scores of freedoms including freedom of the press, freedom of religion, freedom to question the government, freedom of travel, etc. This is your definition of "hat it pretty good?" How pathetic.

And during the time they "had it pretty good" scores were being sent to concentration camps. Not just the Jews, but the gypsies, homosexuals, those that opposed the government, etc.

Oh, and I am pretty sure that from the time they started to be criticized in the press and forced to wear the yellow stars (years before the war started) the Jews weren't feeling that they "had it pretty good."

It appears you do not even have an astute grasp of the obvious.

Ok, time to clear up the muddy waters; My original point was:

1. All human forms of government are equally evil - it is a benign statement - sort of like saying 'the sun rises in the morning'
2. The early church and monasteries were and are communist - the fact that I belong to a monastery sort of made me think that I was free to make this statement.

The rest of the conversation included:

1. The strawman: Aspen is a communist; Aspen believes the atrocities committed by dictators in the name of communism are just as GOOD as the actions of our government; Aspen believes that the freedoms we enjoy in our democracy are just as evil as dictatorships operating under the guise of communism; and Aspen believes that worldly communism is just as GOOD as democracy; Aspen believes that every Christian should live like monks.

2. The distortion: Monks and nuns are miserable because they are all cloistered and have to work at menial tasks all day. Representing all monks and nuns with a few vague stories about miserable people who left the despair and slavish conditions. All nuns and monks are cloistered. Priests are child molesters and general wack-jobs (raging alcoholics, bitter task masters, or simply broken men) because of the Catholic Church. 'Your false love of Communism has bewitched you even against Christ's Authority'

3. Faulty logic: Marx and Lenin were atheists so communism can never include God. I have been taught the American is Right and Russia is wrong so communism is evil. Americans enjoy freedoms so the American government must be a good force in the world. Examples of communism in the world are also examples of true communism. Dictators are being honest when they claim to be communist. Dictators are being dishonest when they make statements that expose them as dictators, rather than true communists.

4. The flip-flop: Monks and nuns get to choose to be in a monastery / monks and nuns are forced to conform; the leaders of Russia/China/Cuba/Vietnam/North Korea were real communists / "They are (or were) lying mass murdering dictators"


5. The attempts to discredit: "I do wish you would learn to focus"; "It is my sincere hope that you are being intentionally obtuse and are not really this clueless"; "It appears you do not even have an astute grasp of the obvious"


None of this 'white noise' even addresses my two statements:


1. All human forms of government are equally evil - it is a benign statement - sort of like saying 'the sun rises in the morning'
2. The early church and monasteries were and are communist - the fact that I belong to a monastery sort of made me think that I am free to make this statement.

blessings

 

[Foreigner]

"1. All human forms of government are equally evil - it is a benign statement - sort of like saying 'the sun rises in the morning'" - Aspen

-- That is as incorrect as when you said: "So you are really under the illusion the Communism is somehow more evil than other man-made government systems?!?! "

If they were "equally evil" the freedoms allowed within the specific governments would be roughly the same.
I have already listed more than once the freedoms found under what you call a "Corporate Oligarchy" compared to, communism, pseudo-communism, or a dictatorship
.
And in the spectrum between our form of government here in the U.S. and an attempted Communist nation or despot, there are multiple other forms of gov't with varying degrees of freedom. Those simple facts null and void your statement about them being "equally evil."

The support and charity the governemtn of our nation provides its citizens and nations around the world in times of crisis (unmatched by any other nation on earth) also negates your claim about the equality of evil between nations.




"2. The early church and monasteries were and are communist - the fact that I belong to a monastery sort of made me think that I was free" - Aspen

-- The early church was communal, not communist. The early monasteries were closer to a dictatorship than communist. You should really acknowledge that the monasteries of today (at least the one you are involved in) are nothing like the monasteries of the past. The fact that you work in an office and spend time cruising the Internet for your amusement, have a family that you go home to at night, etc. confirm that. Apples to oranges, big guy.




"2. The distortion: Monks and nuns are miserable because they are all cloistered and have to work at menial tasks all day." - Aspen

-- Nooooooooooot quite. MANY monks and nuns are miserable. I have seen it with my own eyes. What you ignore is that you were advocating their lifestyle as a model for Christians. Since God calls us to "spread the Gospel to all nations" perhaps they are unhappy because they really can't fulfill Gods edict from behind cloistered walls.
As I said before, "your blanket utopian idea of monestaries is hardly the norm. "




"4. The flip-flop: Monks and nuns get to choose to be in a monastery / monks and nuns are forced to conform;" - Aspen

-- Are you really that clueless about your faith? Monks and nuns are OBEYING A CALLING. In their eyes they have been called and have no choice but to obey. (If you felt God called you to something, would you be able to settle for anything short of obedience?)
Once they are in the monastary or convent they are indeed forced to confirm and obey sometime very harsh and restrictive rules. Rules imposed by man, not God. Punishment for disobedience can be harsh.




"The attempts to discredit: "I do wish you would learn to focus" - Aspen

-- Hmmm...Is that anything like you saying, "Makes me wonder if you have ever worked for someone."
Yeah, I went from college to self-employed or am homeless, using someone else's computer and having no experience with a working business model.
You get what you give.




"the leaders of Russia/China/Cuba/Vietnam/North Korea were real communists / "They are (or were) lying mass murdering dictators"" - Aspen

-- I would have to say this appaers to be outright dishonesty on your part.

If you would read what I said, my statement says that the leaders of countries like Russia were despots that came to power because the great communist experiment failed in that nation, leaving a void for the dictator to take over.

Never said the leader was a "true communist." Not once. They may spout Communist platitudes to assuage the masses, but as I said, they aren't true communists.

And thank you for not using another tired Hitler analogy.

 

[aspen]

Ok, I think I have said all I can about this subject - here is a quick summary:


1. Governments are made by sinful people and are sinful (less than perfect) unto themselves.
2. If you fail to recognize the negative impact of your own government, you will falsely believe that your own government is better. In the US, it is called "American Exceptionalism"
3. Dictators masquerading as communists are not examples of real communism. Communal living is an example of communism. People living on communes are practicing communism.
4. The early church and monasteries practiced communal living.
5. Communism is human made and therefore, just as evil (less than perfect) as other forms of government.

 

[Foreigner]

Ok, I think I have said all I can about this subject - here is a quick summary:

1. Governments are made by sinful people and are sinful (less than perfect) unto themselves.
2. If you fail to recognize the negative impact of your own government, you will falsely believe that your own government is better. In the US, it is called "American Exceptionalism"
3. Dictators masquerading as communists are not examples of real communism. Communal living is an example of communism. People living on communes are practicing communism.
4. The early church and monasteries practiced communal living.
5. Communism is human made and therefore, just as evil (less than perfect) as other forms of government.

I agree with the vast majority of what you just said,

Your point 1. - Fully agree
Your point 2. - My government has had a negative impact on a number of countries around the world.
It has also had a very positive impact on a number of countries, many of whose entire populations owe their very freedom to America's efforts.
(And no, I am not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan.)
Perfect? Of course not. But it has done more to help its citizens and the citizens around the world than any other country in history.
Your point 3. - Dictators by definition are not communists. But they always end up filling the void in countries where the national communist governance fails.
Your point 4. - Fully agree. But by choice, not by God's edict.
Your point 5. - Communism is flawed, just as all other man-made governments are. But to give it the same rating on the "Evil Index" as a Republic that allow personal freedoms so great that people by the millions the world over immigrate to live in, well...

 

[veteran]

1. Governments are made by sinful people and are sinful (less than perfect) unto themselves.
2. If you fail to recognize the negative impact of your own government, you will falsely believe that your own government is better. In the US, it is called "American Exceptionalism"
3. Dictators masquerading as communists are not examples of real communism. Communal living is an example of communism. People living on communes are practicing communism.
4. The early church and monasteries practiced communal living.
5. Communism is human made and therefore, just as evil (less than perfect) as other forms of government

1. The "idea" of government is not sinful. Christ's Government is the Perfect Pattern.
2. The form of government of the United States of American is a Constitutional Republic. It is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, as written in the Preamble. Others may call it what they want, but that's the American government's real basis.
3. Dictators that claim to be Communists are Communists first, then dictators second, for that is the only way Communism has ever manifested, or can manifest. The dictators are all members of the Communist Party; it's not privy to just one individual.
4. The early Christian Church DID NOT practice communal living. Meeting together by traveling from their homes, or having meetings in their homes per the Books of Acts and Romans, was not an example of "communal" living. The only ascetic religious sect that existed among the Jews during the Apostle's days were the Essenes. They lived out in the desert and had an ascetic communal living structure, but, they were not Christians.
5. Communism is 'inhumane' because of its principles that defy the basis of human nature; theories of its purism are also man made and but theories that cannot exist in reality.

 

[aspen]

I agree with the vast majority of what you just said,

Your point 1. - Fully agree
Your point 2. - My government has had a negative impact on a number of countries around the world.
It has also had a very positive impact on a number of countries, many of whose entire populations owe their very freedom to America's efforts.
(And no, I am not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan.)
Perfect? Of course not. But it has done more to help its citizens and the citizens around the world than any other country in history.
Your point 3. - Dictators by definition are not communists. But they always end up filling the void in countries where the national communist governance fails.
Your point 4. - Fully agree. But by choice, not by God's edict.
Your point 5. - Communism is flawed, just as all other man-made governments are. But to give it the same rating on the "Evil Index" as a Republic that allow personal freedoms so great that people by the millions the world over immigrate to live in, well...

I can agree on most of what you said; I only have two reservations

4. I believe God calls these people to live in this manner; I agree with you that all Christians are not called to live this way. I suspect we will live in community in Heaven, but I have no proof.
5. I understand what you are saying, but I am using the same rating scale in regard to governments as I would with personal sin in people. An unredeemed person is sinful without the presence of personal sin - even though they may appear less evil than another unredeemed person in regards to personal sin.

1. The "idea" of government is not sinful. Christ's Government is the Perfect Pattern.
2. The form of government of the United States of American is a Constitutional Republic. It is a government of the people, by the people, and for the people, as written in the Preamble. Others may call it what they want, but that's the American government's real basis.
3. Dictators that claim to be Communists are Communists first, then dictators second, for that is the only way Communism has ever manifested, or can manifest. The dictators are all members of the Communist Party; it's not privy to just one individual.
4. The early Christian Church DID NOT practice communal living. Meeting together by traveling from their homes, or having meetings in their homes per the Books of Acts and Romans, was not an example of "communal" living. The only ascetic religious sect that existed among the Jews during the Apostle's days were the Essenes. They lived out in the desert and had an ascetic communal living structure, but, they were not Christians.
5. Communism is 'inhumane' because of its principles that defy the basis of human nature; theories of its purism are also man made and but theories that cannot exist in reality.

1. Ideals are never sinful until we try to live by them instead of following God.
2, Agreed
3. Disagree. Dictators use any means possible to gain power.
4. I agree that the early church did not live in monasteries or like the Essenes. I do believe they lived like the Amish - serving one another and taking care of one another in a tightly woven community. No one starved or were living on the streets because people cared for one another's needs.
5. Is Christianity inhumane? It certainly defies the basic humane nature by your definition.

 

[[email protected]]

That communism as a political form of government continues to exist cannot be debated.

Is it preferable to any other form of government, with the exception of Islamic dictatorships?

No.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

Socialism is the 'basis' of Communism. That's why the abbr. U.S.S.R. meant United Soviet Socialist Republic.

Trying to say countries like Red China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, Russia, etc., are not Communist countries shows ignorance of history about Communism.

Marxism proposed that only when all his socialist principles were in place would there no longer be a need for a government of leaders. But until that time, they would be required. But he was lying about there eventually being no need for a ruling class structure, because no social structure can survive without some form of leadership; it's a simple fact of human nature. That's what makes his principles of socialism a lie from the very beginning.



Communism has nothing to do with monastic living, for even the monasteries have a ruling structure OVER them from the Church. They are still subject to Church authority, even all the way up to Christ Jesus. Those aren't even communes.

I agree completely. I should've been more clear with this particular statement, that I was talking about the theory. My post a couple more up from this one explained it better.

Either way, you're right. It's not a practical form of government and is not for the good. I still say in theory it's a great idea, but, in all actuallity, it's corrupt and harmful.

The Manifesto wasn't the first idea of communism. I compare that to either reading a democrat version vs a republican version of governemnt.

China is not communist in it's truest roots. It's a dictatorship that borrows ideas from communism in order to form control over people and develop a powerful government.

The entire problem is, people are completely unable to govern themselves.

The biggest problem with communism is the anti-God ideas that have somehow blead into it much like calvinism has into christianity. I don't like socialism because of the racial or national superiority that have blead into it too.

I guess in a sense communism and anarchy do go against God (even if there is freedom of religion) seeing that God is the one who sets the governments up. Apparently, God wants us to have leaders.

 

[lawrance]

I think people at the top who support communism would have to support the idea that most people are not capable of controlling there own lives or anything other.
So in there minds they believe all people must be told what to do. and this comes down to Darwinism survival of the fittest ect and this short narrow sighted nonsense that people are all the same and in this they reduce everyone to the lowest common denominator polluting the peoples minds with sloth.
No wonder they can't stand the Bible as it's a threat to their lies. Holy Moses brought the people out of that rot, as the people of God are freed from that rubbish!
But we do have a yoke and that is much better to have than nothing and just lost aimless fools.
We have this atheist socialist filth pushed on our kids from schools and on us from the Government constantly.
This lot of Socialist have their own god and they mock the true God and given any chance they will say anything against Jesus with out a second thought .
There is a reason why they can not pick up what Jesus Christ has said. and because of it they have no right to be in a position of authority. they are the blind leading the blind.

 

[veteran]

I agree completely. I should've been more clear with this particular statement, that I was talking about the theory. My post a couple more up from this one explained it better.

Either way, you're right. It's not a practical form of government and is not for the good. I still say in theory it's a great idea, but, in all actuallity, it's corrupt and harmful.

The Manifesto wasn't the first idea of communism. I compare that to either reading a democrat version vs a republican version of governemnt.

China is not communist in it's truest roots. It's a dictatorship that borrows ideas from communism in order to form control over people and develop a powerful government.

The entire problem is, people are completely unable to govern themselves.

The biggest problem with communism is the anti-God ideas that have somehow blead into it much like calvinism has into christianity. I don't like socialism because of the racial or national superiority that have blead into it too.

I guess in a sense communism and anarchy do go against God (even if there is freedom of religion) seeing that God is the one who sets the governments up. Apparently, God wants us to have leaders.

A point I was trying to make was... that communist 'theory' itself is a hoax, which is why it is false.

It's an idea like, "we are all going to be millionaires". Sounds good, but it just ain't true.

The theory of Communism is a tool used to support a political strategy, and nothing more. It's root ideas come from the idea of 'collectivism' and Hegel's socialism.

The only thing the early Communists did to come to power was to take advantage of starving populations in brainwashing them to rise up in revolt, promising them something they could never have. It worked good too, as many died in vain for its cause, never reaping the rewards promised them, to include later generations of their children too. Promise a starving man wealth if he'll fight for it, and if he believes it, he'll die believing he's going to get it. It didn't take too long in 1900's Russia for many of the people to wise up, and those who spoke out were sent to prison camps in Siberia, which the Communists kept secret in how many were sent there and died there.

When Stalin came to power, he ruled with an iron fist, merely executing some of his own friends when they started gaining power on him. He murdered many of his own citizens, an estimated 8 million.

Then after Stalin died, things changed. The Russian Communists changed their long-range strategy, seeing how their policies were looking bad in the rest of the world's eyes. That's when they developed their New Economic Policy (NEP) in the 1950's. Their strategy became one of feigning peace to fool the West into giving them sustainable aid, and open up the doors of negotiation (see the FBI agent Skousen's 1958 book The Naked Communist where he documented their strategy; also see Golitsyn's 1984 book New Lies For Old, which documents how that strategy has continued for today) . They held that strategy while supporting their military arm hidden behind their back through North Korea, Red China, and North Vietnam. This is called their 'Scissors Strategy'. They even feigned separateness from Red China at times to fool the West in that strategy. Communist China and Communist Russia have always worked together towards the same goal of world domination.

The Scissors Strategy involves one branch of Communist countries feigning peace while moving slowly towards democratic principles so as trick western leaders into thinking they were coming 'clean'. While one arm was doing that, the other arm was to pursue "politics by other means", i.e., war. One blade of the scissors plays peace, while the other blade plays war. A prime example was Yugoslavia in the late 1940's with Tito. Tito announced Yugoslavian separation from the Soviet Union and asked help from the West towards setting up a democratic state. Western leaders flocked... to him, giving him economic aid. When the dry well was finally filled up, the Soviets in Moscow sent in the tanks, and took Yugoslavia back.

In the 1990's, the Berlin Wall being allowed to be brought down was but another example of that Scissors strategy against the West. Russia and Red China feigned peace while supporting what radicals? Islamic terrorism, which is where we are today. Golitsyn predicted they would allow the Berlin Wall to be torn down in his 1984 book New Lies For Old. He stated that it would indicate the 3rd and final phase of their long-range Communist strategy for takeover of the West.

In that last 3rd phase, Golitsyn said the idea of 'democratization' of the Communist nations was to be their goal into helping to join the East with West to firstly form a one-socialist Europe, from the Atlantic ocean to the Ural Mountains in Russia. We saw one of the major starts of that with the Solidarity movement in Poland. The European Union now has how many members nations, even stretching into ex-Soviet satellite nations? Golitsyn documented how that was planned by the Soviets as part of their disinformation strategy against the West. Western leaders bought it hook, line, and sinker too, just as they also have regarding the Berlin Wall and feigned fall of Communism.

At the end of the 3rd and final phase, Golitsyn said the plan was to close the Scissors upon the West, with both Russian and Chinese armies coming upon them to destroy. That's pointing to the final battle on the last day of this present world, i.e, Armageddon. It's about the list of nations God gave through Ezekiel in Ezekiel 38, which points to Russia allied with radical Islamic nations to come upon God's people in the last days, both Israel in the middleast, and God's Israel in the West.

 

[WhiteKnuckle]

A point I was trying to make was... that communist 'theory' itself is a hoax, which is why it is false.

It's an idea like, "we are all going to be millionaires". Sounds good, but it just ain't true.

The theory of Communism is a tool used to support a political strategy, and nothing more. It's root ideas come from the idea of 'collectivism' and Hegel's socialism.

The only thing the early Communists did to come to power was to take advantage of starving populations in brainwashing them to rise up in revolt, promising them something they could never have. It worked good too, as many died in vain for its cause, never reaping the rewards promised them, to include later generations of their children too. Promise a starving man wealth if he'll fight for it, and if he believes it, he'll die believing he's going to get it. It didn't take too long in 1900's Russia for many of the people to wise up, and those who spoke out were sent to prison camps in Siberia, which the Communists kept secret in how many were sent there and died there.

When Stalin came to power, he ruled with an iron fist, merely executing some of his own friends when they started gaining power on him. He murdered many of his own citizens, an estimated 8 million.

Then after Stalin died, things changed. The Russian Communists changed their long-range strategy, seeing how their policies were looking bad in the rest of the world's eyes. That's when they developed their New Economic Policy (NEP) in the 1950's. Their strategy became one of feigning peace to fool the West into giving them sustainable aid, and open up the doors of negotiation (see the FBI agent Skousen's 1958 book The Naked Communist where he documented their strategy; also see Golitsyn's 1984 book New Lies For Old, which documents how that strategy has continued for today) . They held that strategy while supporting their military arm hidden behind their back through North Korea, Red China, and North Vietnam. This is called their 'Scissors Strategy'. They even feigned separateness from Red China at times to fool the West in that strategy. Communist China and Communist Russia have always worked together towards the same goal of world domination.

The Scissors Strategy involves one branch of Communist countries feigning peace while moving slowly towards democratic principles so as trick western leaders into thinking they were coming 'clean'. While one arm was doing that, the other arm was to pursue "politics by other means", i.e., war. One blade of the scissors plays peace, while the other blade plays war. A prime example was Yugoslavia in the late 1940's with Tito. Tito announced Yugoslavian separation from the Soviet Union and asked help from the West towards setting up a democratic state. Western leaders flocked... to him, giving him economic aid. When the dry well was finally filled up, the Soviets in Moscow sent in the tanks, and took Yugoslavia back.

In the 1990's, the Berlin Wall being allowed to be brought down was but another example of that Scissors strategy against the West. Russia and Red China feigned peace while supporting what radicals? Islamic terrorism, which is where we are today. Golitsyn predicted they would allow the Berlin Wall to be torn down in his 1984 book New Lies For Old. He stated that it would indicate the 3rd and final phase of their long-range Communist strategy for takeover of the West.

In that last 3rd phase, Golitsyn said the idea of 'democratization' of the Communist nations was to be their goal into helping to join the East with West to firstly form a one-socialist Europe, from the Atlantic ocean to the Ural Mountains in Russia. We saw one of the major starts of that with the Solidarity movement in Poland. The European Union now has how many members nations, even stretching into ex-Soviet satellite nations? Golitsyn documented how that was planned by the Soviets as part of their disinformation strategy against the West. Western leaders bought it hook, line, and sinker too, just as they also have regarding the Berlin Wall and feigned fall of Communism.

At the end of the 3rd and final phase, Golitsyn said the plan was to close the Scissors upon the West, with both Russian and Chinese armies coming upon them to destroy. That's pointing to the final battle on the last day of this present world, i.e, Armageddon. It's about the list of nations God gave through Ezekiel in Ezekiel 38, which points to Russia allied with radical Islamic nations to come upon God's people in the last days, both Israel in the middleast, and God's Israel in the West.

Nice! That explains alot. Thanks for taking the time to type that.

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

What a lot of nonsense!

First reaction from a local communist!

It's root ideas come from the idea of 'collectivism' and Hegel's socialism.

Which are in opposition to the Lord and are in fact satanic

The prettiest wife.

Yeah, a friend of mine got a trophy wife... apparently it wasn't first place!