Would you be willing to die, for a lie?

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Robert Gwin

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There is quite a bit more to Mat 13:11. If you only consider in part, you will only...

Yet it covered the point. God reveals to Christians the sacred secret, and like Jesus said only to those, and other passages narrow it even further to anointed, and then through the faithful slave. Mat 24:45-47 those are the ones Jesus uses to feed his sheep.
 

Dropship

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What do you think about people in other religions who are willing to die for what they sincerely believe to be true but are false?

Mugs. Somebody should remind them that the founders of their religions are all corpses in graves or boxes somewhere but Jesus is not..:)

 
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Matthias

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Mugs. Somebody should remind them that the founders of their religions are all corpses in graves or boxes somewhere but Jesus is not..:)


They believe Jesus is; they believe - at least in some cases (ex. Muhammad) - that theirs is not.

Mugs, it seems, are in the eyes of the beholder.

It comes down to faith.

I / we have faith in the testimony of the witnesses of the resurrection of the Messiah. They don’t.
 

ScottA

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Yet it covered the point. God reveals to Christians the sacred secret, and like Jesus said only to those, and other passages narrow it even further to anointed, and then through the faithful slave. Mat 24:45-47 those are the ones Jesus uses to feed his sheep.
The problem is you have not reconciled that with all of scripture, and the point remains the same:

Isaiah 42:19
Who is blind but My servant, Or deaf as My messenger whom I send? Who is blind as he who is perfect, And blind as the Lord’s servant?
As Paul explained, each builds upon the foundation of former servants, not knowing in full, but in part...that is until "knowledge increases" unto "all truth."

The point being...that we are not so unlike Israel, and have wavered in our attempts to follow. Which has not been in perfection, but in much error--nothing new under the sun...even the error of crucifying the Son of God.
 

Taken

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I have non-Christian friends and acquaintances who don’t believe it. They’ve acknowledged the apostles believed it is true and that I believe it is true (because I believe their witness) but have gone on to say that believing it is true doesn’t make it true.

A handful of them are atheists and agnostics but most of them are involved in other religions. When I’ve asked them why they are Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. they’ve responded that they are following (what they believe is) the truth. When I put their argument (“Just because you believe it is true doesn’t make it true”) to them they typically haven’t reacted well.

Switching Religions is “fashionable”, gives an illusion of “mystic”, not much different that a kid who just discovered an Ouija Board.
 

Matthias

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Switching Religions is “fashionable”, gives an illusion of “mystic”, not much different that a kid who just discovered an Ouija Board.

There are good and bad reasons to “switch” religions. I would characterize “fashionable” as an exceedingly bad reason.
 
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Taken

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God reveals to Christians the sacred secret...

God reveals His word to all willing to Hear.
God reveals His understanding of His word to the Converted IN Christ.

The term “Christian” has nothing to do with WHOM Gods reveals To.
There are NON-Christians that have confessed their belief in Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.
 

FHII

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Would you be willing to die, for a lie? Jesus appeared to over 500 brothers at one time, and countless others as well. The apostle Paul was a zealous persecutor of Christians, but Jesus' appeared to him, and personally selected him to be an apostle to the nations. Paul was so convinced that Jesus was resurrected he left his faith, and became a Christian. He pointed out that if Jesus was not resurrected, what would be the point? You may as well eat and drink, for tomorrow you die.

The resurrection hope is a big part of our faith, we firmly believe Jesus was resurrected because of all those who put their lives on the line to spread that good news amidst opposition.
Good point. Historical documents have said all the Apostles were martyred, except John. He did have torture and imprisonment.

Why would they die for a lie? Why would they even work for one? There wasn't a lot of money in preaching a new religion on 33-98 AD, and many pitfalls. They even had good jobs before Jesus called them.

Something touched them so hard that they were willing to die for the gospel.
 
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Ziggy

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There wasn't a lot of money in preaching a new religion on 33-98 AD
I don't know about that...
One of the first things that took place in the new church was everyone selling their property and handing over the deeds to the Apostles.
Later, Paul talked about laying aside "tithes" to be distributed among the various churches.

Not that being a fisherman wasn't a good trade in those days. Lot of commerce going through the cities.
And they lived right on the port basically.
Paul was a tent maker. Lots of people would come to town for the Feast of tabernacles and other Holy days.
He also had a very good education. Very well learned.
But there was a great falling away from the Jews and being converted to Christianity, by the hundreds.
Adding numbers "daily" to the church.

But if you know your going to die, be tortured, and possibly crucified... would the money be worth it?
Maybe it's more about leaving an inheritance to the future generations.
Not monetary, but hope itself.

I look around the world today and it's getting pretty dark out there.
But that doesn't stop us from still spreading the good news, giving hope when it looks like all hope is lost.
I don't believe we do this for ourselves, but rather that our children and grandchildren will carry on the hope.
I can't imagine a world with no hope.
And you can't put a price on that.

But there are some that do hustle people for money so they can pass down that physical inheritance to their children.
Empty it is, and fruitless. Nevertheless, even they take some flack for monetary gain.
But I think if push came to shove they wouldn't die for their belief.

When you compare Moses and Paul there isn't much difference in their beginning a "new foundation" or religion.
Both of them came from high positions. Both of them had committed murder.
Both of them accumulated wealth by taking the "bounty" from the last "slave" owner. (Pharoah and Caesar) .
Both of them claimed to have a special relationship with the Lord, whom no one had ever seen except what is written about them.

Somebody, somewhere is writing the new New Testament. Because it doesn't end here.
There is a new heaven and a new earth coming. And a new Genesis will have to be written.
Although it won't be new, just a newer version of the original.
And the one who writes that will be whoever survives this cycle.
And a new new foundation will begin again. Only this time it will be about us.
The Encyclopedia if it manages to be saved will be our history.

And the people that will rule that world will be people who have the knowledge of this one.
And they will create cures and diseases and teach people how to farm and create recipes.
And they will know how to predict the weather so when a storm comes they can appear as prophets and seers.

Yeah, I think we been round this merry-go-round a few times.
Because history always repeats itself.
We will be the nephilim who come among the common people teaching them "not so new things" that they aught not to learn.
Space travel even.
After the nuclear radiation and dust settles and the rains wash it all clean, then we'll create a new petri dish.
Plant humans on the planet and become their "Watchers" , their "angels" .

I believe the Apostles were given a mission to right the wrongs, and correct the direction of destruction we were headed in.
We've had 2000 years and we still haven't gotten it right.
And the inevitable of an Omega is upon us. And the inevitable of an Alpha is upon us.
Because there is a time for everything under the sun.

When there is no more sun...
We'll begin again in another part of the galaxy and call that home.
Life itself is eternal. Until all the stars go out and there is no more universe to travel.
No more air to breath or rain to fall.
No more darkness and no more light.
And God rolls up the heavens and says he's done.

I don't think that will ever happen.
And maybe that's where hope ultimately lies.
That there never truly ever be an end of all things.
And so we carry on and write new beginnings.
Hoping one day we get it right.

just rambling..
hugs
 

Robert Gwin

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The problem is you have not reconciled that with all of scripture, and the point remains the same:

Isaiah 42:19
Who is blind but My servant, Or deaf as My messenger whom I send? Who is blind as he who is perfect, And blind as the Lord’s servant?
As Paul explained, each builds upon the foundation of former servants, not knowing in full, but in part...that is until "knowledge increases" unto "all truth."

The point being...that we are not so unlike Israel, and have wavered in our attempts to follow. Which has not been in perfection, but in much error--nothing new under the sun...even the error of crucifying the Son of God.

You are 100% right about that Scott, I and none of those from my faith knows all the scripture. In fact based on Ecc 3:11 I doubt we ever will. But God reveals to His people progressively what they need to know sir, always been that way and foretold to be that way Pro 4:18
 
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Robert Gwin

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God reveals His word to all willing to Hear.
God reveals His understanding of His word to the Converted IN Christ.

The term “Christian” has nothing to do with WHOM Gods reveals To.
There are NON-Christians that have confessed their belief in Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living God.
No sir, God has always only revealed His truths to His people. He does so through the faithful slave today Mat 24:45-47 Why would He reveal them to those who refuse to serve Him?
 

Robert Gwin

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Good point. Historical documents have said all the Apostles were martyred, except John. He did have torture and imprisonment.

Why would they die for a lie? Why would they even work for one? There wasn't a lot of money in preaching a new religion on 33-98 AD, and many pitfalls. They even had good jobs before Jesus called them.

Something touched them so hard that they were willing to die for the gospel.

Very good point from you as well sir, still no money in it, some Christians do receive a modest allowance, but most of us use our own funds to spread the good news of the Kingdom.
 

Taken

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No sir, God has always only revealed His truths to His people. He does so through the faithful slave today Mat 24:45-47

No?
You must call yourself or be called a Christian to be Christ’s people?
No.

Many people call themselves, call others Christians, because they gather in a “Christian” Church. Maybe once a year, Maybe 50 times a year. Does that MAKE them “IN” Christ? Uh, no.

Why would He reveal them to those who refuse to serve Him?

Who said anything about refusing to serve Him?
I was ONLY addressing the term ..... “CHRISTIAN”.

The term Christian, The term Believer...floods this forum, and general society, AS IF, that is a ROCK SOLID testimony....it isn’t.

BECAUSE, if you further listen to some of those same men LATER...
Their “testimony has changed”...
Use to be a Christian.
Use to be a Believer.
Point being...Christian is not ROCK SOLID.
Point being...Believer is not ROCK SOLID.

Even Scripture itself spends numerous verses about men’s wishy washy claims...Warnings...stand your ground...ENDURE...keep your word... Remember? If you are NOT Converted, hey, YOU have to rely on YOUR OWN STRENGTH to endure and keep your word.

CONVERSION, IS the only ROCK SOLID viable confession.
A converted man HAS THE POWER OF GOD, IN him.
Hope you endure, keep believing?
NO doubt, No question, No issue...
Nothing is greater than He that is IN You.

These men that are preaching they must endure, they must endure...
Are expressly preaching “THEIR TRUTH”... It is expressly ON THEM, because they have NOT the Power of God......IN THEM.

As far as WHAT people call themselves...Christian, Believer, Messianic Jew....is expressly what they say....same as a person who says...
THEY are Converted IN Christ....is expressly what they say.

However THE Converted IN Christ, expressly reveals THEY CAN NEVER FALL AWAY......BECAUSE expressly, there is no Power Greater than the POWER IN THEM.

Glory to God,
Taken
 

ScottA

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You are 100% right about that Scott, I and none of those from my faith knows all the scripture. In fact based on Ecc 3:11 I doubt we ever will. But God reveals to His people progressively what they need to know sir, always been that way and foretold to be that way Pro 4:18
Yes, therefore we are to remain vigilant.

Blessings to you!
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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No, I wouldn’t be willing to die for a lie.

I would be willing to die for something which I’m absolutely convinced is the truth.

Is it the truth just because I’m absolutely convinced that it is?

John 16:2 tells us that there will be those who when they imprison or kill Christians they will honestly think they're doing a service for God. There will always be these kind of people in this wicked world we're living in until God through his Only Begotten Son Jesus destroys this wicked world.
 
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Robert Gwin

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No?
You must call yourself or be called a Christian to be Christ’s people?
No.

Many people call themselves, call others Christians, because they gather in a “Christian” Church. Maybe once a year, Maybe 50 times a year. Does that MAKE them “IN” Christ? Uh, no.



Who said anything about refusing to serve Him?
I was ONLY addressing the term ..... “CHRISTIAN”.

The term Christian, The term Believer...floods this forum, and general society, AS IF, that is a ROCK SOLID testimony....it isn’t.

BECAUSE, if you further listen to some of those same men LATER...
Their “testimony has changed”...
Use to be a Christian.
Use to be a Believer.
Point being...Christian is not ROCK SOLID.
Point being...Believer is not ROCK SOLID.

Even Scripture itself spends numerous verses about men’s wishy washy claims...Warnings...stand your ground...ENDURE...keep your word... Remember? If you are NOT Converted, hey, YOU have to rely on YOUR OWN STRENGTH to endure and keep your word.

CONVERSION, IS the only ROCK SOLID viable confession.
A converted man HAS THE POWER OF GOD, IN him.
Hope you endure, keep believing?
NO doubt, No question, No issue...
Nothing is greater than He that is IN You.

These men that are preaching they must endure, they must endure...
Are expressly preaching “THEIR TRUTH”... It is expressly ON THEM, because they have NOT the Power of God......IN THEM.

As far as WHAT people call themselves...Christian, Believer, Messianic Jew....is expressly what they say....same as a person who says...
THEY are Converted IN Christ....is expressly what they say.

However THE Converted IN Christ, expressly reveals THEY CAN NEVER FALL AWAY......BECAUSE expressly, there is no Power Greater than the POWER IN THEM.

Glory to God,
Taken

A Christian obeys Jesus' teachings, and the apostles teachings. Jesus said you would be able to identify them by their fruits, this would mean their teachings and conduct.