Your Favourite Theodicy?

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2ndRateMind

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Without God, there is no objective standard for good and evil, only subjective feelings, and nature.

God is the only thing that gives us a standard by which to call innocents suffering bad or call moral bad behaviour evil.

Yes, I'm inclined to agree with you that what God thinks is good is objectively good, and the same goes for evil. And what people think is good is only subjectively good, and the same goes for evil. And that what God thinks to be good or bad, and what people think to be good or bad, are different. This attitude has two main advantages: 1) a becoming humility, and 2) a continual search among the people for objectivity on the matter, which brings us closer to God.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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Stumpmaster

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A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

Best wishes to all, 2RM.
Momentum.

God has set things in motion, knowing how they will play out, and having the power to intervene at any stage. Knowing that evil will occur and allowing it because of the end game or ultimate objective is not the same as causing that evil to occur.

From the moment we are conceived there are inherent dangers to overcome, such is life. Just as natural selection eliminates the unfit for earthly survival, so supernatural selection eliminates the unfit for spiritual survival.

God in His Eternal Presence and Infinite Wisdom has the Will and the Way to set things in motion as it pleases Him, knowing opposition to His Wisdom, His Will, and His Way will occur, but this doesn't mean He Himself is the cause of that opposition.

Jas 1:12-16 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (13) Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (14) But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. (15) Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. (16) Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
 

LTJMP14

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Without evil, we would have nothing to compare good against. If that were the case, would things be caste as good, better, best, more best, greater than more best, not as good, less that not as good,, etc? And if so, would the lowest form of good then be considered bad/evil.

We know good because we have evil as a contrast, and God created us to know the difference, hence HIS commandments.
 

2ndRateMind

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I don't think it needs to be quite that complicated. Travelling down the scale, We start off with Best (objectively Good, and better than everything else), Better (still good, but some things are better yet), Mediocre (half the things are better than the other half), Worse (more than half the the things are better) and finally Worst (or Evil, or objectively Bad, when everything else is better). I have been asked on the forum to define good and evil, but I think we all know what the words mean, and most people without an axe to grind about a particular vice or virtue would recognise the above to be a reasonable approximation to the meanings of the words as used in the English language.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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I have been asked on the forum to define good and evil, but I think we all know what the words mean, and most people without an axe to grind about a particular vice or virtue would recognise the above to be a reasonable approximation to the meanings of the words as used in the English language.

Failing to do that takes what could be a legitimate discussion and drops it into a quagmire of the undefinable and subjective to cause confusion just like trying to navigate a ship without a rudder.

But, that was the plan.
 

ChristisGod

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First, you have to define "good" and "evil" in terms of scripture. G&E in and of themselves are "states" rather than "conditions" and they are relative to the intended purpose and context of the "thing" in question.

Example: Winning the lottery. If a person were to turn their life around and all that- winning the lottery is "good'. If said person bought drugs and dies of an OD- winning would have been "evil".

God created both good and evil and has "repented of the evil' He was going to do on some issues.

This is the baseline of what Jesus meant when he said there is none "good" but the Father.

God created perfection ( a baseline) and pronounced it good (beneficial in that context) and now creation has decayed so "good" is to be measured now in degrees of less failure than against the original baseline ( which is why Jesus specifically said NONE good because the original "perfection" with benefit is gone). In doing so the "concept" of evil was created by default.

Beyond that, our "concepts" of "G&E" are whatever they are and wholly subjective.

No that is not the "baseline " nor what Jesus meant by no one is Good but God ! He did not say the Father either but God.

Mark 10:13-27

13 People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and blessed them.

17 As He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 "You know the commandments, ' DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'" 20 And he said to Him, "Teacher, I have kept all these things from my youth up." 21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, "One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But at these words he was saddened, and he went away grieving, for he was one who owned much property.

23 And Jesus, looking around ,said to His disciples, "A How hard it will be for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God!" 24 The disciples were amazed at His words. But Jesus * answered again and said to them, "Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 26 They were even more astonished and said to Him, " Then who can be saved?" 27 Looking at them, Jesus said, "With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God."


Jesus point in His questioning of the ruler was rhetorical in nature. Do you know who you are calling good? Only God is good. He was saying to the ruler "Do you know who I Am and who you are speaking too? If you read on it becomes obvious for Jesus turned him away from gaining eternal life. He knew what was in his heart and keeping him away from the kingdom. Only God knows what is in mans heart and can allow a person into His Kingdom. Jesus was clearly claiming to be God in this passage.

No prophet, apostle or teacher has ever talked in this presumptuous way in which Jesus did in the gospels and especially in this passage in the synoptic gospel. The young ruler runs up to Jesus kneels to Him in worship and asks Him how can I obtain eternal life? Jesus answers back and said come "Follow ME!" Do you see what Jesus is claiming? He does not say, these are the teachings that God has given me or follow these rules and you will get into heaven. He did not say to follow God or submit to God. Jesus tells the man to follow Me! Only God has that prerogative.

He was saying indirectly to the ruler, know that whom you are speaking to is God. He was letting the young ruler understand who he was talking to and addressing as good. Look at it this way, Is He saying He is not good, and therefore not God? Or is He saying that He is good, and the reason this man can call Him good is because He is God? I opt for the second statement.

Let’s examine the context of the passage and what is going on when this man approaches Jesus. He says why do you call me good and points out to the man that only God is good. The man is unaware of His identity which Jesus who knew men’s hearts was aware of with the young ruler. This man thought of Jesus as just a mere man and not the Son of God. Jesus response was not one of denying His own sinlessness or deity. The context clearly shows just the opposite to be true. Jesus claims absolute authority over the young ruler by asking him to come and Follow Me. To call Him "good teacher" you better recognize who you are speaking to and this is exactly the point Jesus was getting across to the young ruler. Jesus is eternal life and the man was unaware of this truth which is rather obvious by his questions.

How does one obtain eternal life? Jesus confronted him with His Lordship when He said come and follow Me. Jesus confronted the man's sin of covetousness. It was a sin of indulgence and materialism. He was indifferent to people who were poor and in need. So Jesus gave him the ultimate test, would he obey His Lordship? The antis and non trins get all hung up on who is good and cannot see past the plank in their own eyes to see what one must do to be saved. They're still in an unbelieving state and miss out on eternal life from its very source, Jesus. Rather sad indeed.

If we further examine the context of the question asked by the young ruler in verse 13 we read; people were bringing little children to Jesus to have him touch them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, He was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." 16 And He took the children in His arms, put His hands on them and blessed them. 17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to Him and fell on his knees before Him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18 "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus answered. Let’s see what question was asked of Jesus. How can I get eternal life?" is the question. "Follow ME!" is the answer that he gets from Jesus. Do you see what He is claiming? He does NOT say, these are the teachings that God has given Me. Follow these rules and you will get to heaven. He did not say, "follow God or submit to God", but he said "Follow ME!". Jesus is Lord and had the authority to command mankind, Follow Me!

John 1:6-8
John. 7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through Him. 8 He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

John 5:39-40
39 " You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40 and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

John 8:14
" Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.

John 8:18-20
18 I am one who testifies for Myself; My other witness is the Father, who sent Me."

19 Then they asked Him, "Where is your father?"

"You do not know Me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew Me, you would know My Father also."

Luke 24:27
Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

Luke 24:44-45
44 Now He said to them, " These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

Its all about Jesus from beginning to end. He is the First and the Last, the Alpha and Omega ! He is the Great I Am. The Good Shepherd indeed !


hope this helps,
 

2ndRateMind

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I have found, after some time on various Christian message boards, that those with the need to be rude to the people they are debating/discussing with are precisely the same people as those who are most deeply insecure about their own beliefs.

But this is my thread, I started it, I accept the responsibility for it, and I would like it to be a welcoming place for all, even those without the thick skins that are advisable for those who wish to take part in public debate. And I shall police it that way from now on. Let me meanwhile just remind you what the question was: overtly - what is your favourite theodicy? And covertly - why?

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Except you have not proven what you claimed is either true or correct. Assumptions do not equate to truth. You must prove your assumptions are true which you have yet to accomplish.

Yes I have with relevant information each time. You just:

Don't understand or comprehend it
Ignore it because you don't like it
Talk in circles wishing it wasn't so when you cannot factually refute the point.
 

2ndRateMind

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Well I said I'd police it. So here goes.

Why is it, @An Apologetic Sheepdog, you always assume the worst of people who disagree with you? Are you so perfect? So ineffably wise? So infallibly correct in your judgments? I think you would be a far more congenial type of individual if you accepted, just once, that you could be incorrect in your assessments, and your antagonist more correct than you. After all, when it boils down to it's core, we are only talking eternal life, versus the lake of fire, and who gets which. Nothing that important then.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Why is it, @An Apologetic Sheepdog, you always assume the worst of people who disagree with you?

I don't assume anything. I observe their comments and discern based on relevant factors as the situation dictates. It just doesn't take me long in most cases.

Are you so perfect?

No

So ineffably wise?

That depends

So infallibly correct in your judgments?

I have a high degree of accuracy and all have the opportunity to challenge on the merits. The ones who cant are the ones who usually try to "shame" like you are doing now so they can hide behind emotionalism when the merits of the case fail. Feel free to disprove my points- its not like you haven't been asked.

I think you would be a far more congenial type of individual if you accepted, just once, that you could be incorrect in your assessments, and your antagonist more correct than you.

"Congeniality" isn't a requirement or concern of mine and I accept critique and correction when the facts show it. Your problem as with most is that your merits don't rise to that threshold so you try to get around it with various rhetoric, emotionalism, logical fallacies, ad hom etc.

Again, you are cordially invited to challenge and/or refute any point I make ( I'll even say please come)- just bring facts and data.

After all, when it boils down to it's core, we are only talking eternal life, versus the lake of fire, and who gets which. Nothing that important then.

Which is exactly why I don't compromise or let people get by with things.

Was that congenial enough for you? I said please and I invited you and I look very forward to digging into the merits of every point you bring up.

Now lets see those answers I have asked you numerous times and examine them in detail on their merits. After all, its just eternal life in the potential balance- nothing really important is it?

I'm waiting.
 

ChristisGod

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Well I said I'd police it. So here goes.

Why is it, @An Apologetic Sheepdog, you always assume the worst of people who disagree with you? Are you so perfect? So ineffably wise? So infallibly correct in your judgments? I think you would be a far more congenial type of individual if you accepted, just once, that you could be incorrect in your assessments, and your antagonist more correct than you. After all, when it boils down to it's core, we are only talking eternal life, versus the lake of fire, and who gets which. Nothing that important then.

Best wishes, 2RM.
And all Gods children said :

Amen !
 

2ndRateMind

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Somehow, I'm inclined to think that that the congenial are far more likely to make eternal life than those who are uncongenial. And if they are not, I would rather spend my last, agonising hours with them than an eternity among smug self-satisfied individuals. That's not a Biblical thing, just a matter of integrity. As a 'safe' priest once quoted from the book of Ruth to the Jews of his parish due for deportation in the fascist days when genocide was the fashion, 'Whither thou goest, so shall I go'.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
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An Apologetic Sheepdog

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Somehow, I'm inclined to think that that the congenial are far more likely to make eternal life than those who are uncongenial. And if they are not, I would rather spend my last, agonising hours with them than an eternity among self-satisfied and smug individuals. That's not a Biblical thing, just a matter of integrity. As a 'safe' priest once quoted Ruth to the Jews due for deportation and of his parish in the fascist days when genocide was the fashion, 'Whither thou goest, so shall I go'.

Man, after all that rhetoric in #53 that got directly addressed in #54- you didn't take long to bug out and start tap dancing around it.

Still waiting. Please. Thank you
 

2ndRateMind

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I observe their comments and discern based on relevant factors as the situation dictates. It just doesn't take me long in most cases.

Well, that's quite obvious. But philosophy of religion and theology are both deep subjects, and would maybe reward more contemplation than you currently allow them. More later, if I can't sleep tonight.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 

2ndRateMind

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Man, after all that rhetoric in #53 that got directly addressed in #54- you didn't take long to bug out and start tap dancing around it...

It's rudenesses like this, and the demonstrable, woeful lack of good manners, which are the reason I will not debate with you, only police you on my threads.

Best wishes, 2RM.