Your Favourite Theodicy?

[2ndRateMind]

A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

Best wishes to all, 2RM.

 

[Truman]

I believe that God is absolutely sovereign and is in control of every particle in creation. Our brains can't comprehend Him.
He is absolute ruler, and yet He is our loving Father, knowing each of us by name. He speaks the truth in a way that I can understand Him, and for that which I don't understand, I know I can trust Him. After all, He is God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
No one can understand the full extent of Your sovereign plan.
No one can comprehend the good and evil that You send.

 

[2ndRateMind]

I believe that God is absolutely sovereign and is in control of every particle in creation. Our brains can't comprehend Him.

Indeed. But I think He has given us a clue and a message. He doesn't seem all that keen on chaos, for example. I think we can't go too far wrong if we believers rely on logic and reason to construe His nature and His ways.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Truman]

Logic and reason are boxes on people's heads. God is never in a box.
God is beyond me and yet is intimate with me. He's my Daddy, He's my destination, He's my Messiah and my Comforter.
In the chaos of my life, He is my anchor and my sole hope! He is my all in all. He is my hope-not-deferred. He is my resurrection from death...spirit, soul, and body. He is my eternal perspective. He is dimensions beyond my grasp!
And yet with a single touch, all of my angst is melted away.
This life is a mist...and then there will be no more death, mourning, crying, or pain. And we'll be with Him always. Shalom.

 

[GEN2REV]

Funny, I was just writing about this in this thread:
Why was Adam easily manipulated if man is made in God's image?
(Post #12 & 14)

I believe God is Sovereign in ways we can't even comprehend.

I believe He created light AND darkness, good AND evil, and I believe He ALSO gave all men free will while simultaneously creating some for destruction and some for salvation. That kind of math just doesn't add up in our limited human reasoning, but I believe we have made Him far too small.

He is the Ultimate Supreme Being that we can't even begin to fully fathom.

Romans 11:33 & 36 come close to expressing His Majesty.

 

[Curtis]

A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

Best wishes to all, 2RM.

There is so much evil in the world, and it’s literally hell on earth for many people, because Satan is legally god of this world.

It’s no surprise that the world that is ran by Lucifer is full of evil.

God gave Adam dominion over the world, and Adam legally transferred dominion over the world to the devil when he fell.

Satan tempted Jesus by offering Him the kingdom’s of the world, which had been delivered unto him - by Adam.

Due to Adams fall, we are all born into the kingdom of darkness, with Satan as our spiritual father - and the only escape is to change fathers by receiving Jesus and becoming a son of God - which is via adoption - and change kingdoms, by being translated into the kingdom of Gods son.

The world will remain under the devils control and filled with evil, until the second Adam returns and takes back what the first Adam lost.

Scriptures available upon request.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Funny, I was just writing about this in this thread:
Why was Adam easily manipulated if man is made in God's image?
(Post #12 & 14)

... simultaneously creating some for destruction and some for salvation...

Hmmm. Do you really believe that a good God would deliberately create sentient creatures in order to torture them for all eternity? If so, that is a radical interpretation of the word 'good'!

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[GEN2REV]

Hmmm. Do you really believe that a good God would deliberately create sentient creatures in order to torture them for all eternity? If so, that is a radical interpretation of the word 'good'!

Best wishes, 2RM.

I believe exactly what scripture teaches and what exactly happens in hell is not for me to ponder. Maybe it's destruction, maybe it's eternal torment, maybe it's different for each punished soul. That's not for me to concern myself with.

You implied in your OP that you prefer to believe that God is in control of everything. Why then would this be difficult to accept?

God IS good, but He's also thorough, just, complex, infinite, eternal, etc.

We speak here on earth of how 'strange' those who are genius often seem to us simply because they do things different and see the world differently. God is infinitely higher in intelligence and comprehension than we can even imagine.

Don't forget, we're only getting about half the story of reality, ya know. We know almost nothing about the spiritual realm and all of its various dynamics. God is outside of time for goodness sake. How can we dare to judge Him in any way?

The verses I referenced, in the two posts I linked to in the other thread, speak of people and beasts that are created for destruction. That tells ME that they will not receive salvation, will not go to heaven and will be destroyed.

Compare these verses:
Romans 9:22-23
Habakkuk 1:12
1 Peter 2:8
2 Peter 2:12
Jude 1:4
Jude 1:10

Have some deep reverence for our unfathomable God and take HIS Word for it.

God bless.

 

[2ndRateMind]

...You implied in your OP that you prefer to believe that God is in control of everything...

I don't think I implied any such thing. One of my foundational beliefs is in human free will. Without which Judgment Day would be the kind of farcical show-trial so beloved of the autocrats and dictators of the world. One of the notions one needs to jettison, then, is the control of God, but what one gains is the idea that our decisions are not trivial, and determine our own and other peoples' eventual deployment to death or glory, not to mention the quality of life here and now. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter what we thought, said and did, since it would all be controlled by God, and we could blame Him for anything we don't like.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[GEN2REV]

Not sure why all the confrontational energy, I didn't come into this thread that way at all and it sure doesn't seem like you even glanced at the posts that I linked to in my very first post #5 in this thread. That might have cleared some things up.

Here is where we stand:

...You implied in your OP that you prefer to believe that God is in control of everything...

I don't think I implied any such thing.

This is taken from YOUR OP:

... My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good ...

If you can't see how that impression could be taken, I'm sorry for you.

Judgment Day, as I have already conveyed in the posts that you didn't read, will be NOTHING like a worldly trial of any kind. There will not be a hearing where good deeds are compared to bad deeds and two sides make their case. It will be punishment for the wicked and reward for the righteous, plain and simple. That's why it is called Judgment Day, not Trial Day. The scales of judgment will not even come into play because our fate will already be decided when we arrive.

Just as you see in Matthew 7:21-23 & 25:31-33, God will direct us to one side or another immediately. Many will expect to be able to make their case, but God will hear none of it. The goats (wicked) to His left and the sheep (righteous) to His right. There will be no kangaroo court or any manner of trial as we imagine in our limited human minds. At the moment of your death, your fate is decided as your every moment-to-moment decisions of thought, word and deed are weighed instantly, on a daily basis, and create the outcome of your soul's status after this life. Your sanctification, or corruption/defilement, is created for you every second of your life. You either move closer to God, or further from Him, each and every moment.

" ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling ...(every moment of every day)"
Philippians 2:12

 

[Lambano]

My intellectual acceptance of "the problem of evil" is based on the belief that whatever it is that God intends for us to become, it is apparently necessary that we have an experiential knowledge of both Good and Evil. That takes faith in God's plan and God's ultimate goodness.

On a heart level, I find it comforting to know that God is not merely a third-party observer of our suffering. In Christ's incarnation, he has known first-hand what it's like to be hungry, to be homeless, to be misunderstood, to live under a ruthless military occupation and a local establishment more interested in preserving their own power and perks than in justice, what it's like to lose a friend, to be afraid, to suffer injustice, betrayal, torture and horrible pain, and finally death.

I think I can live with that.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Not sure why all the confrontational energy, I didn't come into this thread that way at all and it sure doesn't seem like you even glanced at the posts that I linked to in my very first post #5 in this thread. That might have cleared some things up.

Here is where we stand:


This is taken from YOUR OP:

I don't think I implied any such thing. One of my foundational beliefs is in human free will. Without which Judgment Day would be the kind of farcical show-trial so beloved of the autocrats and dictators of the world. One of the notions one needs to jettison, then, is the control of God, but what one gains is the idea that our decisions are not trivial, and determine our own and other peoples' eventual deployment to death or glory, not to mention the quality of life here and now. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter what we thought, said and did, since it would all be controlled by God, and we could blame Him for anything we don't like.

Best wishes, 2RM.

If you can't see how that impression could be taken, I'm sorry for you.

Judgment Day, as I have already conveyed in the posts that you didn't read, will be NOTHING like a worldly trial of any kind. There will not be a hearing where good deeds are compared to bad deeds and two sides make their case. It will be punishment for the wicked and reward for the righteous, plain and simple. That's why it is called Judgment Day, not Trial Day. The scales of judgment will not even come into play because our fate will already be decided when we arrive.

Just as you see in Matthew 7:21-23 & 25:31-33, God will direct us to one side or another immediately. Many will expect to be able to make their case, but God will hear none of it. The goats (wicked) to His left and the sheep (righteous) to His right.

" ... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling ...(every moment of every day)"
Philippians 2:12

I'm a goat then, because there is no way at all I would countenance loving anyone or anything who demanded that love with the
menaces of threat. Fortunately, my experience of God is that He is good, and loving good things needs no threat.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Not sure why all the confrontational energy, I didn't come into this thread that way at all and it sure doesn't seem like you even glanced at the posts that I linked to in my very first post #5 in this thread. That might have cleared some things up.

Here is where we stand:


This is taken from YOUR OP:

I don't think I implied any such thing. One of my foundational beliefs is in human free will. Without which Judgment Day would be the kind of farcical show-trial so beloved of the autocrats and dictators of the world. One of the notions one needs to jettison, then, is the control of God, but what one gains is the idea that our decisions are not trivial, and determine our own and other peoples' eventual deployment to death or glory, not to mention the quality of life here and now. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter what we thought, said and did, since it would all be controlled by God, and we could blame Him for anything we don't like.

Best wishes, 2RM.

If you can't see how that impression could be taken, I'm sorry for you.

Well, I was merely pointing out the natural conclusion of assuming God controls all, good and evil, including our 'free' decisions.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Dupe, sorry, I'm still learning to drive this interface.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Truman]

Dupe, sorry, I'm still learning to drive this interface.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Welcome to the jungle! Lol

 

[dev553344]

A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

Best wishes to all, 2RM.

Satan started the evil when he tricked Eve into rebellion in the garden. From then it has been chastisement and God's wrath and judgments that people see as evil along with some stuff from Satan probably. But of course God is not evil he is good:

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

 

[dev553344]

Satan started the evil when he tricked Eve into rebellion in the garden. From then it has been chastisement and God's wrath and judgments that people see as evil along with some stuff from Satan probably. But of course God is not evil he is good:

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

I should point out that God is set to resurrect people, so he makes up for it?:

Daniel 12:2
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.”

 

[GEN2REV]

I'm a goat then, because there is no way at all I would countenance loving anyone or anything who demanded that love with the
menaces of threat. Fortunately, my experience of God is that He is good, and loving good things needs no threat.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I mean no offense, or judgment at all, but may I ask if you have had a chance to read the entire Bible? Many, many professed Christians, and pastors for that matter, have not. It's just that it helps to take in the full extent of the story and God's purposes to better understand Him and His ways.

It sounds like maybe you don't subscribe to the concept of hell. It might surprise you that Jesus spoke of hell and the devil more than anybody else in all of scripture. I don't see God as an insecure, vengeful God at all. That is a modern perversion of who and what He is. I see Him as just, trustworthy and faithful.

He created a world that He intended to be a certain way, with morals and standards and rules that aren't just for the sake of being a control-freak, but for very specific spiritual purposes. When all of that was thwarted and "another" injected himself into the equation, demanding that mankind follow his ways instead, it was only proper and righteous and honorable for God to then give precise instructions, to all of those who love Him, on exactly how to get back to the salvation that He originally intended for His Beloved all along.

It is simply a natural result/outcome if one chooses to follow the ways of the one who rules this fallen world, with immeasurable hatred for God and all of His creation, that they will be ultimately rejected by God.

There is absolutely no demand that we love Him with any menace of threat if we don't. That, again, is a modern obfuscation of the facts - and a tragic one at that. God is not now, and has never been the bad guy, but you wouldn't know it to hear the opinions of so many in this day.

Remember, Jesus was villainized as the criminal and trouble-maker in His life on earth as well. It is THE fate of any and all who choose to walk in the ways of the Eternal Creator … who is nothing if not love and perfection.

Well, I was merely pointing out the natural conclusion of assuming God controls all, good and evil, including our 'free' decisions.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I don't believe God controls our free will at all. And that's not a contradiction to anything I have stated.

 

[2ndRateMind]

No, I haven't read the entire Bible, cover to cover. I am working through it gradually, at the rate of chapter by chapter, day by day. Then I have the book of Mormon to read, and the Qu'ran. Meanwhile, as a holding strategy, I simply remember Christ's commandments, that we should love God, and love each other. I think so far that all the rest of the scriptures is context to these.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Bob Estey]

A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

Best wishes to all, 2RM.

God chose to give us free will. Thus, there is trouble. God has a way of working things out, though. It's quite amazing.