Your Favourite Theodicy?

[liafailrock]

A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

Best wishes to all, 2RM.

1) Free choice (garden)
2) Lessons regarding free choice (i.e. life and choice of masters)
3) God will make it good again -- resurrection (and he participated in the pain).
Addendum: Those who complain there is no God because of all the death and evil in the world
a) the bible never promised a bed of roses, so one can't blame God for something he did not promise
b) OK, suppose there is no God, there's still evil so now what's the excuse? If there is no God, then who defines evil? (a contradiction). Even physical Law (such as in physics) is up for grabs because there is none.

I'm from the generation that loves outlines and concise statements to the point. LOL

 

[DPMartin]

A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

Best wishes to all, 2RM.

God created all possibilities of all things, so what. what's your point? that you know better? thing is yes good comes from God because only God is good, therefore the judge of what is good and evil for His creation and the creatures therein no exceptions. problem is, man was entrusted with God's place in the earth, and man decided to be judge of good and evil hence do God's job, whereas its God's job to judge and mans to execute God's judgements in the earth. and God's Judgement is Life, (of which the Son of God, Jesus demonstrated), and man's judgement is otherwise. so what belongs in darkness is now in the place in the earth made for the Light, which man is that place.

hence what is evil is that judgement other than God's judgement is in the place for God's Judgement.

no different than a ruthless murderer that belongs out of the world in prison or hanged, goes about freely because of a corrupted court system, that is what evil is. not that the killer exists its that he is in the wrong place.

 

[2ndRateMind]

God created all possibilities of all things, so what. what's your point? that you know better? thing is yes good comes from God because only God is good, therefore the judge of what is good and evil for His creation and the creatures therein no exceptions. problem is, man was entrusted with God's place in the earth, and man decided to be judge of good and evil hence do God's job, whereas its God's job to judge and mans to execute God's judgements in the earth. and God's Judgement is Life, (of which the Son of God, Jesus demonstrated), and man's judgement is otherwise. so what belongs in darkness is now in the place in the earth made for the Light, which man is that place.

hence what is evil is that judgement other than God's judgement is in the place for God's Judgement.

no different than a ruthless murderer that belongs out of the world in prison or hanged, goes about freely because of a corrupted court system, that is what evil is. not that the killer exists its that he is in the wrong place.

At this point in time, I reach no conclusions. I am leaving it to the forum to decide whether or not our world is the best of all possible worlds. I may add some thoughts to the mix, though, if I think them relevant as the conversation proceeds.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well, I was merely pointing out the natural conclusion of assuming God controls all, good and evil, including our 'free' decisions.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I also believe God controls all.

This is my scenario. God wanted fellowship, so created heaven and the inhabitants were the angels. He also created the stars in the universe and set them in motion. All this was so ultimately He could create a being in His own likeness, humans that He could be one with. So He created the earth and sun and moon within the Milky Way galaxy. A very special galaxy. He, being only good, knew that by giving all these created beings free will, that there would be among them, some strong, and some weak. He gave man 6000 years of their self-will to either be strong in Him, or fall into grave darkness. Ultimately, all that would be left with Him forever and all eternity, would be the strong, those who are One in Him. Inside the special galaxy He placed constellations that would depict the redemption of this world, and taught His prophets these signs in the heavens. Ancients called this the Zodiac, which started with Virgo, (the virgin) and ends with Leo, (the lion of the tribe of Judah). The twelve tribes of Israel each had a banner that depicted one of these signs. This is why the banner depicting Leo was over the tribe of Judah. Of course, Satan perverted this message in the heavens of the plan of redemption, as he does with everything of God, including God's gifts to mankind, creating witchcraft, satanic religions, astrology, and all sorts of wickedness to try to blind people of the truths God created, even false teachings regarding sin inside God's Church. Whenever you hear someone say Jesus forgives all unrighteousness "past, present and future" that is a perversion of the truth that Jesus TAKES AWAY sin out of our nature, therefore giving us power to no longer sin, therefore, present and future sins is the doctrine of demons perversion of the Truth that we are cleansed of our old sins. 2 Peter 1:9

Revelation 22:11

In the end when this earth is gone, all that will be left are the strong in Him - forever.

 

[Curtis]

I also believe God controls all.

This is my scenario. God wanted fellowship, so created heaven and the inhabitants were the angels. He also created the stars in the universe and set them in motion. All this was so ultimately He could create a being in His own likeness, humans that He could be one with. So He created the earth and sun and moon within the Milky Way galaxy. A very special galaxy. He, being only good, knew that by giving all these created beings free will, that there would be among them, some strong, and some weak. He gave man 6000 years of their self-will to either be strong in Him, or fall into grave darkness. Ultimately, all that would be left with Him forever and all eternity, would be the strong, those who are One in Him. Inside the special galaxy He placed constellations that would depict the redemption of this world, and taught His prophets these signs in the heavens. Ancients called this the Zodiac, which started with Virgo, (the virgin) and ends with Leo, (the lion of the tribe of Judah). The twelve tribes of Israel each had a banner that depicted one of these signs. This is why the banner depicting Leo was over the tribe of Judah. Of course, Satan perverted this message in the heavens of the plan of redemption, as he does with everything of God, including God's gifts to mankind, creating witchcraft, satanic religions, astrology, and all sorts of wickedness to try to blind people of the truths God created, even false teachings regarding sin inside God's Church. Whenever you hear someone say Jesus forgives all unrighteousness "past, present and future" that is a perversion of the truth that Jesus TAKES AWAY sin out of our nature, therefore giving us power to no longer sin, therefore, present and future sins is the doctrine of demons perversion of the Truth that we are cleansed of our old sins. 2 Peter 1:9

Revelation 22:11

In the end when this earth is gone, all that will be left are the strong in Him - forever.

Much of what you said is right, but John corrects the claim that Christians are sinless in 1 John 1, when he says IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, His blood cleanses us from sin, and the Greek there indicates ongoing action - if we continue to walk in the the light, His blood continues to cleanse us from sin - then he goes on to say that if we insist we have no sin, we lie and the truth is not in us, then adds IF we confess our sins they are forgiven.

1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Clearly we have a daily choice to walk in the light or not, and there’s no such thing as being completely sin free as a believer- if we can’t sin, explain why Jesus warned 4 of 7 churches to repent, and warned the church at Sardis that He blots those who fail to overcome out of the book of life?

Maranatha

 

[CharismaticLady]

Much of what you said is right, but John corrects the claim that Christians are sinless in 1 John 1, when he says IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, His blood cleanses us from sin, and the Greek there indicates ongoing action - if we continue to walk in the the light, His blood continues to cleanse us from sin - then he goes on to say that if we insist we have no sin, we lie and the truth is not in us, then adds IF we confess our sins they are forgiven.

It is actually two sections.

God is Light
If you walk in Darkness (no light - lost)
If you walk in the Light (our trespasses against each other are forgiven Matthew 6:14-15 if we forgive. That has nothing to do with willful sins of lawlessness 1 John 3:4

Then verse 8 is mankind that sins but says they have to sin. The same with verse 10 about someone who claims to have never sinned. Those both are unrepentant. Verse 9 is how to BECOME a Christian.

6, 8 and 10 are unsaved in DARKNESS.
5, 7, and 9 are LIGHT

The contrast goes back and forth and why verses 8 and 10 are not together as would be a Greek style. This is a Semitic style called contrasts.

5 - LIGHT
6 - DARKNESS
7 - LIGHT
8 - DARKNESS
9 - LIGHT
10 - DARKNESS

You are reading it with a western (Greek) mindset and are not understanding what the apostle being Jewish actually means.

Your belief contradicts 1 John 3:5-9

 

[CharismaticLady]

Clearly we have a daily choice to walk in the light or not, and there’s no such thing as being completely sin free as a believer- if we can’t sin, explain why Jesus warned 4 of 7 churches to repent, and warned the church at Sardis that He blots those who fail to overcome out of the book of life?

We are not to go back to the carnal flesh, but are to stay in the Spirit/LIGHT.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Sardis, the Reformation, is where all this false teachings of demons started, and it is still being preached in just about every denomination.

 

[2ndRateMind]

It may help, in your deliberations on this topic, to recognise two types of evil. Natural evil is earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes and other tempests, etc. No one is responsible for natural evils, except, maybe, God. Moral evils on the other hand, are the direct results of human sin. The results of pride, gluttony, avarice, sloth, lust, wrath and envy, to list the important ones.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[jessiblue]

I believe that God is absolutely sovereign and is in control of every particle in creation. Our brains can't comprehend Him.
He is absolute ruler, and yet He is our loving Father, knowing each of us by name. He speaks the truth in a way that I can understand Him, and for that which I don't understand, I know I can trust Him. After all, He is God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
No one can understand the full extent of Your sovereign plan.
No one can comprehend the good and evil that You send.

Amen.
Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

And it’s AMAZING how omnisciently our Father thinks about and watches over each and every one of His children to do us good.
Psalm 139:17-18
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.

-jb

 

[MatthewG]

Hello 2ndRateMind,

A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

My suggestion would be that God is good, is love, and is faithful even when we as people are not. Us human beings in our natural condition of our heart without God is not good, so thus individual people in their darkness of heart can cause trouble for others. There is only one Remedy and that is to look towards the light of the Son of God; the Lord Jesus. Who conquered over, sin, death, the grave, and Satan.

The whole world has been reconciled back to God that all have the chance now to have a relationship with Him if they choose so. Though we have the choice to live out our lives in this flesh to it's natural capacity in the form of living for self ; or to live by the spirit; living for the love of God and others.

Neat question. Also could say everything is a result of the fall of Mankind but God has reconciled the world back unto himself and man/woman has a choice to make to accept and receive faith and live it out in their life or not.

The choice is up to all people and you can walk away if you so desire though many disagree with that notion.

 

[ChristisGod]

I believe that God is absolutely sovereign and is in control of every particle in creation. Our brains can't comprehend Him.
He is absolute ruler, and yet He is our loving Father, knowing each of us by name. He speaks the truth in a way that I can understand Him, and for that which I don't understand, I know I can trust Him. After all, He is God. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
No one can understand the full extent of Your sovereign plan.
No one can comprehend the good and evil that You send.

Yes He holds every single thing in the universe/creation together 24/7

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Colossians 1:15-20
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Hebrews 1:1-4
In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven

Hebrews 1:8-10
But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.

 

[Truman]

Yep...

 

[2ndRateMind]

OK, guys n' gals. Let me try to bring this back to the OP's original intent. If God is responsible for everything, and is good, how do you account for evil? In other words, do we live in the best of all possible worlds, and if not, why not?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[farouk]

Amen.
Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

And it’s AMAZING how omnisciently our Father thinks about and watches over each and every one of His children to do us good.
Psalm 139:17-18
17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.

-jb

Hi @jessiblue Great passage there from Isaiah 55! The end of 1 Peter 1 is similar, about being 'begotten....by the word of God which liveth and abideth for ever...'

 

[Curtis]

It is actually two sections.

God is Light
If you walk in Darkness (no light - lost)
If you walk in the Light (our trespasses against each other are forgiven Matthew 6:14-15 if we forgive. That has nothing to do with willful sins of lawlessness 1 John 3:4

Then verse 8 is mankind that sins but says they have to sin. The same with verse 10 about someone who claims to have never sinned. Those both are unrepentant. Verse 9 is how to BECOME a Christian.

6, 8 and 10 are unsaved in DARKNESS.
5, 7, and 9 are LIGHT

The contrast goes back and forth and why verses 8 and 10 are not together as would be a Greek style. This is a Semitic style called contrasts.

5 - LIGHT
6 - DARKNESS
7 - LIGHT
8 - DARKNESS
9 - LIGHT
10 - DARKNESS

You are reading it with a western (Greek) mindset and are not understanding what the apostle being Jewish actually means.

Your belief contradicts 1 John 3:5-9

The clear context is John is talking about the Christian life, by using the pronoun WE, not YoU.

When Paul preaches how to be saved to the non Christian in Romans ten, he says IF YOU confess with your mouth the faith in your heart, you will be saved.

John includes himself in the whole chapter of 1John 1, by continually using the pronoun WE, saying that if WE - CONTINUE to walk in the light, His blood continues to cleanse us from all sin.

The Greek there is continual. If we CONTINUE to walk in the light, which can only refer to the Christian.

And given the many warnings from Paul to the brethren that continuing to live sinfully after salvation will forfeit heaven, it’s a serous error to deceive oneself into claiming they are sinless as a Christian, per John’s warning that if WE believers say we have no sin, we lie to ourselves, so that WE must confess our sins as believers, for them to be forgiven.

According to your sinless Christian doctrine, Jesus told 4 out of 7 churches in revelation that they needed to repent of their sins as believers, when they can’t sin, and have nothing to repent of.

And when Jesus told the church at Sardis they had defiled their white robes, which scripture says represent the righteousness of believers, (meaning they defiled their righteousness by sinning), that is also impossible, because they can’t sin.

Even worse, when Jesus told the laodicean church they had not just defiled their white robes, but had lost their robes completely and were stark naked, and didn’t even know they were naked, He really told a whopper there, because the Christian can’t sin, thus can’t defile or lose or lose their righteousness from sinning.

Maybe that’s why they were naked, yet thought they were still clothed - they falsely believed they couldn’t sin as a Christian, so never repented of their sins.

 

[An Apologetic Sheepdog]

OK, guys n' gals. Let me try to bring this back to the OP's original intent. If God is responsible for everything, and is good, how do you account for evil? In other words, do we live in the best of all possible worlds, and if not, why not?

First, you have to define "good" and "evil" in terms of scripture. G&E in and of themselves are "states" rather than "conditions" and they are relative to the intended purpose and context of the "thing" in question.

Example: Winning the lottery. If a person were to turn their life around and all that- winning the lottery is "good'. If said person bought drugs and dies of an OD- winning would have been "evil".

God created both good and evil and has "repented of the evil' He was going to do on some issues.

This is the baseline of what Jesus meant when he said there is none "good" but the Father.

God created perfection ( a baseline) and pronounced it good (beneficial in that context) and now creation has decayed so "good" is to be measured now in degrees of less failure than against the original baseline ( which is why Jesus specifically said NONE good because the original "perfection" with benefit is gone). In doing so the "concept" of evil was created by default.

Beyond that, our "concepts" of "G&E" are whatever they are and wholly subjective.

 

[Taken]

A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

Best wishes to all, 2RM.

God Created and Made all things.
(That which is Good and that which is Evil).
Yes..God IS all knowing.
God established what IS meant BY Good.
God established what IS meant BY Evil.

Yes, God being the creator and maker of all thing...IS accredited for creating and making;
Good and Evil.

God AS WELL, notifies, What He knows, When He knows it....
is NOT the same as angels or mankind.

God AS WELL, notifies,
He IS Good. His Works Are Good.
He is NOT a Worker OF Evil, nor IS EVIL.

Angels and Mankind...HAVE FREEWILL...
TO...choose to BE, in Gods character Likeness...
(Good and Workers of Good.)
OR...choose to BE, in Gods Character Opposition...
(Evil and Worker of Evil)

* And whichever a man freely chooses...
* Surprise...God Himself will Help them along...
To achieve their "choice".

* WHY?
Because GOD IS "JUST"...
You want? Whatever? Stand WITH God? Stand AGAINST God?
God will help you achieve your chosen desire.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The clear context is John is talking about the Christian life, by using the pronoun WE, not YoU.

When Paul preaches how to be saved to the non Christian in Romans ten, he says IF YOU confess with your mouth the faith in your heart, you will be saved.

John includes himself in the whole chapter of 1John 1, by continually using the pronoun WE, saying that if WE - CONTINUE to walk in the light, His blood continues to cleanse us from all sin.

Clear Scriptural CONTEXT...
WHO was John Sent to Preach TO;
(His race brethren JEWS, and Tribesmen)...
Most appropriate for John to speak to his Jewish brethren in the "WE" (all Jews) context.

WHO was Saul (the Jew Pharisee) Paul Sent to Preach TO:
Primarily GENTILES.
Paul, (greek/gentile name), preaching to Gentiles....with a JEWISH message from A JEW, (Christ Jesus).

Paul was already CONVERTED...IN CHRIST.
Preaching to NON-Converted Gentiles.
Paul was "separating" himself from "the non-converted"...saying "YOU", not "WE".

Jesus also Separated Himself...from His own Apostles and all other men....
Calling God "HIS" "MY" Father exclusively to HIM.
Calling God a Father of all other men.

 

[Wynona]

Without God, there is no objective standard for good and evil, only subjective feelings, and nature.

God is the only thing that gives us a standard by which to call innocents suffering bad or call moral bad behaviour evil.

 

[LTJMP14]

A theodicy is a line of argument that purports to explain why, If God is wholly good, there is so much evil in His world. My least favorite theodicy is that God is responsible for everything that's good, and Satan for everything that's bad. When God created His angels, being omniscient, He must have known Lucifer would rebel, so God, admittedly indirectly, is responsible for evil, as well as good. But over to you. What do you think?

Best wishes to all, 2RM.

God allows evil and darkness, the benefit of which is that God's goodness and light destroys evil and overcomes darkness. Suffering is the consequence of sin, and everyone since Adam has inherited a sin nature. Satan may have charmed Eve, but Adam was the one who sinned.