Thoughting again!....oh no, is that allowed?

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BarneyFife

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Yeah! I get where yer coming from.
Cuz I ain't "dazzled" with your brilliance!
And I'm fresh outta patience for B.S.! :)
Yet? The resonating sound of crickets bespeaks volumes on your behalf!
Yanno, you really gotta be careful when "weeding yer garden."
Cuz, them tares? They can hit ya so hard and relentlessly?
They quite literally will make yer head spin!
Here! Try this!:
Matthew 9:38
Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
The Bible is so magical? That a wisdom can be true inwardly AND outwardly at the same time?
I'm crushed.
 

BarneyFife

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Yeah! I get where yer coming from.
Cuz I ain't "dazzled" with your brilliance!
And I'm fresh outta patience for B.S.! :)
Yet? The resonating sound of crickets bespeaks volumes on your behalf!
Yanno, you really gotta be careful when "weeding yer garden."
Cuz, them tares? They can hit ya so hard and relentlessly?
They quite literally will make yer head spin!
Here! Try this!:
Matthew 9:38
Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
The Bible is so magical? That a wisdom can be true inwardly AND outwardly at the same time?
Speaking of B.S. ...
 

stunnedbygrace

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IOW, you can't just be going around thoughting.

Of course you can think! But you have to also know that Gods thoughts are far above yours and that your mind is not even able to comprehend or attain to the things God has for you. Those things are found by going a way your mind cannot take you. It is trust that takes you there.

But as Scripture says:

“No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
and no mind has imagined
the things that God has prepared
for those who love him.”


But my intent was not to argue, it was to encourage a brother to leave behind where his own mind can take him and rely on and trust God to take him where he does not know.
 
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BarneyFife

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But you have to also know that Gods thoughts are far above yours
Do you honestly think this never occurred to me? People love to dispense unsolicited mentoring. Do you choose your own mentors? I generally do. It seems just a bit presumptuous to pretend one knows someone else's level of Christian maturity without even being acquainted with them. I think this (however unintentional) condescension is the source of much conflict on these forums. Nothing personal, really. Just in the mood to rant into thin air. :D
 

BarneyFife

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Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Do you honestly think this never occurred to me? People love to dispense unsolicited mentoring. Do you choose your own mentors? I generally do. It seems just a bit presumptuous to pretend one knows someone else's level of Christian maturity without even being acquainted with them. I think this (however unintentional) condescension is the source of much conflict on these forums. Nothing personal, really. Just in the mood to rant into thin air. :D

I'm sorry. I cannot help myself. I am fond of that brother. I wanted to encourage him. It was not in my heart to deal arrogantly with him.
 
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NayborBear

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Wait all you like. It's complicated......

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Seems "man" tends to make matters such as this more complicated then needs be, eh? :)
 

BarneyFife

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Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Seems "man" tends to make matters such as this more complicated then needs be, eh? :)
If you can't see the paradox (seemingly conflicting, yet congruent) of child-like trusting and:

Proverbs 2
Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;

I can't help that, eh?
 

Enoch111

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The name Michael, like the name Emmanuel, is simply another name for Jesus.
This is blatantly false. Michael is a created being -- the archangel Michael -- which is clearly stated in Scripture. Jesus is God the Word, the Creator of Michael.

So how do people get so thoroughly confused? By paying attention to false prophets and false teachers. Only the cultists believe that Michael and Jesus are identical. Indeed the name "Michael" means "Who is like God?" But the name "Emmanuel" means "GOD with us".
 

BarneyFife

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Michael is a created being -- the archangel Michael -- which is clearly stated in Scripture.
This is blatantly false.
Jesus is God the Word, the Creator of Michael.
This is true in the sense that Christ is self-originating.
Only the cultists believe...
Us and them... Yada, yada


Identifying Michael as the tangible manifestation of Jesus is similar to what is known as a Christophany. The name “Michael” appears only 15 times in the Bible. Since ten of them are, for the most part, people listed in genealogies, it should be fairly easy to identify who he really is with the remaining five references. Those references are: Daniel 10:13, 21, 12:1, Jude 1:9, Revelation 12:7. Let’s examine each of them one by one:

Jude 1:9: “Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.”

This text identifies Michael as the “archangel.” The only other place in the Bible that uses this term is 1 Thessalonians 4:16:

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”

Here we read that Jesus has the “voice of the archangel.” He is not borrowing the voice of another being. No, it is literally his voice, because it is at the sound of his voice that the dead are raised from their graves. Compare this with the following texts:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. … Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:25, 28-29)


In no uncertain terms, we see here that Jesus is that archangel whose voice raises the dead. It’s noteworthy that the dispute is over the body of Moses, who later we see resurrected (Matthew 17:3). The fact that Jesus, and not Satan, has the power to resurrect, this grants us more evidence as to who Michael actually is and why Satan tried to resist him.

Additionally, there is a striking parallel between Jude 1:9 and Zechariah 3:2: “And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?” The rebuking is, in fact, done by “the LORD.

Daniel 12:1: “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:1-2)

This next text transitions well with the three we just examined because here we also find the resurrection of the dead taking place at the appearance of the archangel. Angels do not have the power to resurrect the dead. That is a prerogative of deity. It is not Michael, as a created angelic being, raising the dead… it is Jesus, manifested as “Michael,” who resurrects the dead.

Daniel 10:13: “But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.”

This text calls Michael “one of the chief princes.” Contextually there are two other princes mentioned, the Prince of Persia (verse 13) and the Prince of Grecia (verse 20). Princes are above other people so it follows that these princes are “chief” among their people. Obviously, when the passage says one of it is referring to the princes that the passage is talking about.

Young’s Literal Translation offers an alternative reading, “and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads…” Both first or one of are appropriate translations because Daniel 12:1 says that Michael is the “great” prince. Thus, though there are two other princes, Michael is the first and greatest of them all.

Revelation 12:7: “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.”

This text identifies Michael as the commander of angels (“his angels”). This interpretation works very well with the actual meaning of the word “archangel.”3 The greek word ἀρχάγγελος literally means, “chief of the angels.” Thus Michael is the leader of all the heavenly angels.


Daniel 10:21: “But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.” (Daniel 10:21).

Probably the most significant detail about this verse is that it identifies Michael as the leader of God’s people as well. This is deduced from the fact that it says “your prince” in contrast to the other two princes which belong to Persia and Greece.

What we have gathered so far is strong evidence for Christophany when it comes to the appearance of Michael:

A) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who resurrects the dead:

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.” (John 11:25)

B) Jesus, not an angel, is the one who commands and leads the angels:

“The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.” (Matthew 13:41)

“And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True… And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.” (Revelation 19:11-14)

C) And Jesus, not an angel, is the leader of God’s people:

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Putting all this together we are presented with two options: either there are two Beings in heaven, each performing the same roles, or one being. Either both Jesus and Michael resurrect the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people, or Jesus as Michael resurrects the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people. In light of the evidence presented I think any reasonable Bible student well understands that only Jesus has the power to perform all three of these tasks.
 

BarneyFife

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THE ANGEL OF THE LORD

Throughout the Old Testament we constantly find the appearance of an “angel of the Lord/captain of the hosts” who manifestly turns out to be God. Here are those verses:

Example #1:

“And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude… And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?” (Genesis 16:7-10, 13)

Example #2:

“And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son.” (Gen 22:15-16)

Example #3:

“And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I. And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle are ringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee. I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.” (Genesis 31:11-13)

Example #4:

“But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD. And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.” (Judges 13:21-22)

In these first four examples we find an angel who is identified as “the God who sees,” “the Lord,” the “God of Bethel,” and the God that appears to Manoah and his wife. Since God is appearing to these individuals as the “angel of the Lord” it is evident that the use of the word “angel” does not always mean it is a created, angelic being. Not every time, at least.

Let’s examine some other examples:

Example #5:

“And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” (Genesis 32:24-30)

Jacob identifies this mysterious man as God, and the prophet Hosea refers to him as an “angel” (Hosea 12:2-4). Since “no man hath seen the Father” (John 1:18, 1 John 4:12) and yet Jacob, along with Manoah and his wife, saw God “face to face,” it is evident that this divine angel was none other than Jesus himself.

Example #6:

“And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.” (Exodus 3:3-6)

Here, the angel identifies himself as “God.” In verse 14 God tells Moses that he is the great “I AM.” This is absolute proof that it was Jesus, the “angel of the Lord” that appeared to Moses, because Jesus said, “Before Abraham was, I am. (John 8:58). Moreover, these verses simultaneously prove that Jesus is not a created angelic being, because “I AM” implies a self-existent, eternal being. We reject the Jehovah’s Witness viewpoint that Jesus is a created being. To Seventh-day Adventists, Jesus is deity, and has always existed. The “angel of the Lord” is simply the tangible pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus in certain instances of the Old Testament.

Example #7:

“Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, [and] spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God… Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.” (Daniel 3:24-25, 28)

Here we have a direct reference to Jesus, the “Son of God.” The King, for a brief moment under direct inspiration of God, recognizes the parallel between Jesus and God’s “angel.”

Example #8:

“And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries? And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant? And the captain of the LORD’S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so. (Joshua 5:13-15)

This “captain of the host of the Lord” accepted Joshua’s worship. If this were a mere man or angel of God, he would have put a stop to it immediately (compare with Acts 14:11-15, Rev. 22:8-9). Moreover Joshua was commanded to remove his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. No mere man or angel can make the ground holy. Recall that it was God’s presence that made the ground holy at the scene of the burning bush, where Moses was also told to remove his shoes (Exodus 3:5). Thus the one who appeared to Joshua as the leader of God’s host was God himself, or Jesus, since no man has ever seen the Father.

Moreover there is a connection between this Being and Michael. Note that it says he is the “captain of the host of the Lord.” What does archangel mean again? That’s right, it means “chief of the angels.” Now unless there are two Beings that lead God’s heavenly army (which we do not have scriptural proof for) we are forced to conclude that it was none other than Jesus who appeared to Joshua as Michael, the “captain of the host of the Lord.”

Example #9:

“Behold, I will send my messenger (malak), and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger (malak) of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.” (Malachi 3:1)

In Hebrew, the word “angel” is malak and it simply means “messenger, representative.” The term does not always refer to angelic beings. It can also refer to humans as well. Now according to Matthew 11:7, 10, the first messenger is John the Baptist. Since it was the office of John to prepare the way before Jesus (see John 1:30) it follows that the second messenger in Malachi 3:1, is Jesus. Thus we have Jesus being referred to as a malak, or angel.

The evidence is strong in all of these texts that the appearance of this angel is in fact the appearance of the preincarnate Jesus. He is that archangel, or chief/leader of the angels, or “angel of the Lord” whose voice raises the dead, commands the angels and leads God’s people. He is that “angel of the host” and the “messenger of the covenant” as well. No other Being falls into these categories except Jesus Christ himself. Michael is simply his alternative name.
 
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friend of

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True. Michael the Archangel has been specifically assigned to Israel to watch over the Jews.

It makes me wonder what happened in the heavens at the time of the holocaust. The enemy must have tripped Michael up somehow in order for that to happen.
 
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justbyfaith

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Jesus was not an archangel prior to His incarnation.

He was "The everlasting Father" (Isaiah 9:6).
 

kcnalp

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Perhaps you could help me in understanding what the kingdom hall doctrines are?

You are now saying I was defending kingdom hall doctrines in my trying to correct the "thoughting" that Jesus of Nazareth was Archangel Michael before he was Jesus of Nazareth?
Or?
I am defending kingdom hall doctrines in posting a video that makes a statement that God told this feller in the story that "He's not the kind ya hafta wind up on Sunday?"

Or perhaps you think I am defending kingdom hall doctrines in posting a video from a guy, who has probably done yours and my share of "wineing, and womanizing, and singing?"

I guess this means that you are not of a doctrine that would give credit to those "blind squirrels" that find a "nut" every now and again?
Kingdom Hall TWISTS nearly every verse in the Bible.
 
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kcnalp

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o_O
Watchtower teaches that Jesus is an angel, if I'm not mistaken. I believe that Christ is the Everlasting Father, THE MIGHTY GOD. He is everything; in Him we live and move and have our being. All things were created by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. He qualifies as Saviour because He possesses life completely unborrowed, in and of HIMSELF. Calvary is the centerpiece of time, space, and matter.
Sounds good!
I hope I've stated this clearly enough. Christ and His Father ARE ONE. He just also happens to be the supremely divine Commander of the Heavenly Host. Try to see the difference between this and "Come over to the dark side, Luke." It won't hurt you. Try "thoughting." Let God out of your box, maybe. :rolleyes::p:D:cool:;)
I hope you're not saying Jesus is the Father.
1 John 2:22 (NKJV)
He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son.
 
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Taken

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Jesus is the name given to the man who amongst other things has divided Earth's history.

This man crucified as a criminal also has many titles, like 'Prince of Peace', The Everlasting Father, The Alpha and Omega, Immanuel, King of Kings, Lamb of God and many more but did the angels know him as Jesus prior to his incarnation on Earth?

'The Angel of the LORD encamps around about those who fear him....' Psalm 34:7
It was the Angel of the LORD who followed Israel in the cloud. There are other references of this nature as well where Jesus is referenced as an Angel.

Could it be that prior to Jesus incarnation as a man; to the Angels he was known as Michael, as referenced in Daniel 10:21 and 12:1?....I would say, The Arch Angel?. Even in the above quote in Psalms, David's reference is an 'Angel'... in fact, the Angel of the LORD....all capitals. We know that when LORD is translated in Capitals it is the personal name of God.

The account of Sarai, Hagar and Ishmael in Genesis 16 is worth looking at regarding this.

Looking up the meaning of 'Michael' is also interesting.

By the way, 'name' means character.
'hallowed be thy name' ... 'has a name above every other name' .... 'on his thigh was written a name which only he himself knew'.

Another thought....the invisible God who Jesus said is a Spirit and only seen by the Son reveals himself through the Son.....to the angels as an angel.....to men as a man?

I believe Before the Word of God, was sent to earth "in the likeness as a man", with the Name Jesus, with the title, Son of Man, to become called, Son of God...

He was without NAME, known as:
A Specific Angel; (not an Angel, not Gods Angels, not named Angels, etc.)
A Specific Title OF a spirit:
"The Angel OF the LORD"...

* Who, BTW, did appear to men, in the Likeness AS a man (but was NOT called, Son of Man, or Son of God, or Jesus).

Example:
Judg (Chapter 13: 1- 25)
Foretelling of the birth of Samson.
13:
[18] And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret ?

Glory to God,
Taken