Once Saved Always Saved

[BloodBought 1953]

Nah, you treat me like crap. Your boast falls on deaf ears. But I still like you, though.

I have nothing against you personally ......it’s your Doctrine that I hate....I truly believe it is dangerous

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes, he was saved by grace through faith and...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................I don’t know anything to add to that.

How about the confession of his mouth? Romans 10:10

Don’t tell me that saved him. Else....

Tong
R3197

 

[mailmandan]

Matthew 18
32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.

That guy had been forgiven (salvation by grace through faith). Then the forgiveness was rescinded because of his sinful actions.

Now, "faith is counted as righteousness"--that "righteousness" can be forgotten if you think you can rely on it and go committing wickedness. This is the uniform testimony of Scripture--testimony which, not because you have bad intentions, but because you want to preserve a system of belief that you have found to have utility and practicality, you reject.

More eisegesis on your part in order to preserve your biased doctrine. In regards to the parable of the unforgiving servant, the picture illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. In Matthew 18:28, where the servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant such a small debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive hypothetical situation. As unbelievable as this action would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. Even though in this parable the master was moved with compassion to forgive this servant despite the condition of his wicked heart, that is not how it works with our Lord and Master, Jesus Christ. The Lord isn't going to ultimately forgive unmerciful, unforgiving, wicked hearts no matter how much we beg and plead, then take it back and He also doesn’t order that our wife and children be sold in order to pay off the debt either. (vs. 25) We could fall to our knees all we want asking the Lord to be patient with us and we will pay back our enormous sin debt (vs. 26) but it's too huge to pay back, so that isn't going to work either.

Forgiveness of the huge debt was taken back by the master in the parable, who did not infallibly know that his servant had a wicked heart until it was later exposed, yet he was willing to show mercy and forgiveness just as our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is willing to show mercy and forgiveness and the huge debt of the wicked servant was forgiven of his huge debt until his unforgiving nature was discovered. His master in this parable was a man who did not infallibly know his wicked servant's heart (unlike the Lord, Jesus Christ who infallibly knows our hearts) and did not realize that his servant was wicked until his heart was exposed by refusing to forgive his fellow servant in such a small matter. (vvs. 32-34)

Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not fully embraced God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. The fact that this person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they were saved. The children of Israel were referred to as "the Lord’s servants," but they were not all saved.

In Leviticus 25:55, we read - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

In Isaiah 43:10, we read - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I have chosen..

Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

 

[mailmandan]

He says "I never knew you" because He is denying them because they denied Him--they're being blotted out of God's Book because they sinned against God Exodus 32:32-33, Revelation 3:1-5. Their righteousness ("faith is counted as righteousness") is being forgotten. Matthew 25:26 shows that the "measure of faith" is stripped away from some people.

More eisegesis on your part. Here is a link to a Christian site that has a Q & A on this topic which may be helpful for you.

What is the Book of Life and the Book of the Living? | NeverThirsty

In regards to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25, the fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:26-30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all were not truly converted.

The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground. (Matthew 25:25) The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it. This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer and it's obvious that he had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness.

Once again, the fact that this person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they were saved. The children of Israel were referred to as "the Lord’s servants," but they were not all saved.

In Leviticus 25:55, we read - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

In Isaiah 43:10, we read - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I have chosen..

Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I have nothing against you personally ......it’s your Doctrine that I hate....I truly believe it is dangerous

You don't know my doctrine. You just think you do. That's what's dangerous. I see this over and over and over again among Christians.

 

[Corlove13]

<<<our salvation corresponds to the salvation of the Jews from Egypt (they too were "saved by the blood of the lamb"), not to "inheriting the promise".>>>

There is a parallel, but only that. The promises are not the same. The NT speaks of better promises.

Tong
R3145

Can you explain the later part of the first paragraph?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Don’t tell me that saved him. Else....

Tong
R3197

Justification is by believing. Salvation is by confession. What does that mean without that being a works salvation?

For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. Romans 10:10​

Very, very few have a good answer for that. Most people can only see it as a works gospel and so they reject it.

 

[mailmandan]

Justification is by believing. Salvation is by confession. What does that mean without that being a works salvation?

For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved. Romans 10:10​

Very, very few have a good answer for that. Most people can only see it as a works gospel and so they reject it.

Some people (like those who attend the church of Christ) basically turn Romans 10:9,10 into a works gospel. I've heard members of that church misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week or next month and then we are finally saved next week or next month, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth." Plus they believe a person is not saved until they are water baptized after they confess in their multi-step plan of salvation.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching. *Notice the reverse order from verse 9-10: that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

...we're talking about the ear tickling doctrine that says you can purposely live in unrepentant sin all you want and you are still saved and will always be saved. That's making grace a license to sin. If it is not, please inform us what making grace a license to sin is.

A person that thinks he can “ Sin and get away with it” is one that THINKS that he can abuse Grace or “ Turn it into a License to Sin “—— it is a lie.Some people like to try it, I suppose.....I am like Charles Stanley in this matter.....if you think you can MOCK GOD and take advantage of what Christ Shed His Blood for—— go right ahead! Give it a shot! See what happens.....it won’t be pleasant.You probably won’t be tempted to try it again....God will Chastise His Children here in their lifetimes .....

Nobody “ gets away with” ANY Sins in this life......God will punish day to day Sinning bad enough.....when it comes to Sinning up a storm because you think Grace is going to cause it to be “ Overlooked”...... you are going to be in for a HUGE surprise .....and you ain’t gonna like it....never forget that God can strike you Dead at any moment if you think you can play Him for a Fool.....

As we can all see, you're deflecting again. Address the actual argument being leveled against your teaching. You say a believer can deny Christ and literally go back to unbelief and they will still be saved. Won't happen......

if we deny Him, He will also deny us 2 Timothy 2:12
​

As far as I can tell, you've ignored all requests to explain what making grace a license to sin is so we can distinguish it from your teaching about grace. And, you have ignored all requests, as far as I have seen, to explain how your sinning is different than the sinning of the person in 1 Corinthians 5 who Paul says to throw out of the church.

 

[Corlove13]

More eisegesis on your part. Here is a link to a Christian site that has a Q & A on this topic which may be helpful for you.

What is the Book of Life and the Book of the Living? | NeverThirsty

In regards to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25, the fact that the latter man in this parable is called "wicked" and "lazy" and an "unprofitable" servant (Matthew 25:26-30) who is "cast out into outer darkness," certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) Those who produce no results at all were not truly converted.

The first two servants deposited their talents with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his talent in the ground. (Matthew 25:25) The third servant had been given a talent according to his ability and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but chose to reject it. This man's characterization of the master maligns him as "reaping and gathering what he had no right to claim as his own." This wicked so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer and it's obvious that he had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness.

Once again, the fact that this person is called a "servant" does not necessarily mean they were saved. The children of Israel were referred to as "the Lord’s servants," but they were not all saved.

In Leviticus 25:55, we read - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

In Isaiah 43:10, we read - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I have chosen..

Nehemiah 1:6 - please let Your ear be attentive and Your eyes open, that You may hear the prayer of Your servant which I pray before You now, day and night, for the children of Israel Your servants, and confess the sins of the children of Israel which we have sinned against You. Both my father’s house and I have sinned.

Salvation[deliverence] does not stop at being born....one needs to still have (deliverence)in this world they are still living on earth.

Substitute ["life" in for (deliverence)]
Another words after one is freed from sin, how do they continue to know they are free from sin?
John 1:7,9
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

 

[mailmandan]

Salvation[deliverence] does not stop at being born....one needs to still have (deliverence)in this world they are still living on earth.

Substitute ["life" in for (deliverence)]
Another words after one is freed from sin, how do they continue to know they are free from sin?
John 1:7,9
But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 John 1:6 - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11, we read - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother.

*Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is descriptive of "children of the devil."

 

[Corlove13]

Some people (like those who attend the church of Christ) basically turn Romans 10:9,10 into a works gospel. I've heard members of that church misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week or next month and then we are finally saved next week or next month, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth." Plus they believe a person is not saved until they are water baptized after they confess in their multi-step plan of salvation.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching. *Notice the reverse order from verse 9-10: that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

While I am not understanding the middle passage nor go to a Church of Christ...

Let me give a couple of passages for you to consider what they could be saying.
Gal 2:16 kjv
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Corlove13]

Some people (like those who attend the church of Christ) basically turn Romans 10:9,10 into a works gospel. I've heard members of that church misinterpret Romans 10:9,10 in such a way that means we can believe unto righteousness today, but are still lost until we confess Christ, which may be next week or next month and then we are finally saved next week or next month, but that is not what Paul is talking about here. Also, someone who is moot (unable to speak) would remain lost according to that erroneous interpretation of Romans 10:9,10 for failing to "verbally confess with their mouth." Plus they believe a person is not saved until they are water baptized after they confess in their multi-step plan of salvation.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching. *Notice the reverse order from verse 9-10: that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply giving lip service to the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit is not unto salvation.

Actually I read it again....and do understand what you are saying...the key is that what we say and what is in our hearts should match up

 

[kcnalp]

Please don’t say that about the truth that in Christ, the child of God is safe and secured by faith.

Tong
R3191

Are you really saying none of these "MANY" who did all these things in the Name of Jesus were NEVER saved? How utterly ridiculous!

Matthew 7:22-23 (NKJV)
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

 

[mailmandan]

While I am not understanding the middle passage nor go to a Church of Christ...

Let me give a couple of passages for you to consider what they could be saying.
Gal 2:16 kjv
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Excellent scripture, but what is it that you don't understand? Oh, I see that you do now understand.

 

[Taken]

The important thing is that you believe, and continue to believe, just as the Bible tells us to do.

Staying ON POINT of "this" OP...
The "important thing"... IS Understanding

This OP, is about "SALVATION".

Just don't go around telling believers those admonitions aren't' written to them.

Absolutely there IS....an "US" and "THEM".
Absolutely there IS...a Difference between "US" and "THEM".

*ALL men... BEGIN Against God.(sin)
God DIVIDED men...
*Natural "BRANCHES"... No "BRANCHES.
*Natural Branches HEAR Gods Word
*Natural Branches are WARNED to Continue BELIEVING.

*Jesus Arrives On Earth From Heaven.
*Jesus APPOINTS Jews to Preach to Jews, (the Natural Branches)... THEY are IN Danger of BEING "CUT OFF" for Straying away "FROM CONTINUING" Belief "IN GOD".

*Jesus Returns to Heaven...
*Jesus' Spirit encounters Saul.
*Saul IS obedient to Hear & Believe Jesus.
*Jesus' Spirit teaches Saul for 3 years.
*Saul the Jew, called Paul the Greek Agrees to SERVE Jesus the Lord.
*Saul the Jew, called Paul the Greek, Serves Jesus the Lord...BY PREACHING, to Greek (Gentiles and Jews), the Gospel of Jesus the Christ.
* THIS IS the BEGINNING of Greek/Gentiles....becoming GRAFTED IN
To the NATURAL Branches.

*The Grafted Branches (Gentiles)...receive the SAME "WARNINGS"...
* Begin HEARING the Word of God.
*BE in FEAR of God.
* Continue HEARING.
* Continue BELIEVING what they HEAR.

The Natural Branches...The Grafted Branches....WHO CONTINUE BELIEVING...
THE Lord God IS: WITH THEM.

THE NEW REVEALED KNOWLEDGE
* ANY man... Jew or Gentile....
OPENING their MOUTH, Confessing BELIEF, (from the thoughts of THEIR HEART)... "EFFECTS" A "PERMANENT DIVISION", between...."US" and "THEM".

AND WHAT IS that Permanent Change?

 

[amigo de christo]

Holiness ? I got better than that......At the Cross , Jesus took all of my Sins upon Himself and in turn I got His Perfection....Our Personal “Holiness” is as big a joke as our “ Righteousness”...

The only “ Holiness” we have is that which was “IMPUTED” to us —- just as our “ Righteousness” is Imputed....

How “Holy” were you the last time you had an impure thought? If you Lie by claiming that you have no impure thoughts.....that ain’t “ Holy” Behavior either.....

Everyone here already knows that our holiness and righteousness is imputed to us in Christ .
And if folks have the Spirit they would sound more like peter , paul , james , jude and Christ .
Who all reminded the people to walk holy , to heed the Spirit , to do good and to flee evil .
To continue in Christ to the end . To not err . They would not constantly fight and bicker against those who would stir us up
to do good and to flee evil . So why do you do this BB . I fully know the only goodness i have IS CHRIST .
As for impure thoughts , that is the flesh my friend . But we dont have to be a slave to a thought .
If anyone has the Spirit they would be unctioned against that thought the moment it enters into the mind .
SEE , the flesh is always going to pop evil thoughts into our head , but we dont have to be a slave to that thought .
We do not have to act it out . We have all we need in Christ to fight and bring our thoughts subject unto Christ .
Meaning full well that while evil is present with us , for its in the flesh , we do have the power in Christ
to not entertain the evil in our flesh when it tempts us . Go and learn this . Reckon yourself to be dead indeed unto sin .
Stop being a slave to sin and teaching otherwise . And if any does err confess your faults .
Jesus left us a model prayer . Now , let all who name the name of CHRIST depart from inquity .
Let it not once be named .

 

[The Parson]

I am like Charles Stanley in this matter.

Wonderful man of God. He was my pastor when I was in my teens.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Their boasting of what they have done strongly indicated they never were.

No boasting at all. I guess this means it ‘strongly indicates’ OSAS is ridiculous.

So what do you regard their saying “ Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”.

Tong
R3198

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Our knowing God is not to be mistaken as that makes us deserving of His salvation.

Nonsense. He offers salvation. No reason we cannot take it, then leave it. Hence, Romans 6
12 Don’t invite that insufferable tyrant of sin back into your mortal body so you won’t become obedient to its destructive desires. 13 Don’t offer your bodily members to sin’s service as tools of wickedness; instead, offer your body to God as those who are alive from the dead, and devote the parts of your body to God as tools for justice and goodness in this world. 14 For sin is no longer a tyrant over you; indeed you are under grace and not the law.

Nonsense? Perhaps you think that your knowing God makes you deserving salvation?

I am curious, what do you make out to know God mean?

Tong
R3199