Did Charismatic movement injure Church?

[Paul Christensen]

Just to interject here for a moment, I thought both Bill and his wife Candace Johnson resigned as senior pastors from Bethel church in 2020??

It was Eric and Candice Johnson who resigned.

 

[CharismaticLady]

The service where they had someone holding a pagan occult symbol and using it to evoke an outcome by chanting what sounded to me like a pagan incantation, is definitely off.

Where did you see this? Is it on youtube. I would like to see what you are talking about.

As far as the same thing that Copeland teaches about little god's, I believe that to be scriptural, and even Jesus mentioned it. It just means that we have the seed of God inside us, are children of God, and can do anything that Jesus did while on earth, and even more per scripture.

I found this on waking up angels:

Beni Johnson also teaches some peculiarly unorthodox views of angelology, such as that there are “different kinds of angels: messenger angels, healing angels, fiery angels” who have “fallen asleep.” In a blog post she wrote, “I think that they have been bored for a long time and are ready to be put to work.” She relates a story about one of her students at the Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry who claims God told her to go to the chapel and yell “WAKEY WAKEY!” As Johnson says,

Nothing happened for about five minutes, so [the student] turned around to cross the road to go over to a shop. As she turned around, she felt the ground begin to shake and heard this huge yawn. She looked back at the chapel, and a huge angel stepped out. All she could see were his feet because he was that large. She asked him who he was, and he turned to her and said, “I am the angel from the 1904 revival and you just woke me up.” She asked him, “Why have you been asleep?” The angel answered and said, “Because no one has been calling out for revival anymore.”

I am not going to call her a liar, nor that what she says happened didn't happen. I believe people until I find out differently. Others believe the worst and nothing anyone says will change their minds. Not saying that about you, but about those who call me a heretic. What I do know is that those who operate in faith, which Bill and Beni do, God will do anything.

Have you ever seen the video reenactment where two cars come together, but instead of crashing, they meld together and come back apart without a scratch? Well that happened to me too! God also changed a brass screw into my mother's lost diamond ring, after telling me twice during 15 months that it would happen. So you see I am not going to put anything past what God will do. And no, it doesn't have to be sited in the Bible either. It just can't be evil. That is why I want to see this pagan thing you were talking about to see if they were worshiping it, or what. But until then, I will have faith in Bill Johnson's ministry. I've never seen gold dust, or feathers, but I have no doubt at all that some of this is real.

And I will always have the faith of a child, just like God wants me to have. And even if no one else sees miracles, I am totally open to them and to my God who likes to strengthen my faith - from glory to glory.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Where did you see this? Is it on youtube. I would like to see what you are talking about.

As far as the same thing that Copeland teaches about little god's, I believe that to be scriptural, and even Jesus mentioned it. It just means that we have the seed of God inside us, are children of God, and can do anything that Jesus did while on earth, and even more per scripture.

I found this on waking up angels:

Beni Johnson also teaches some peculiarly unorthodox views of angelology, such as that there are “different kinds of angels: messenger angels, healing angels, fiery angels” who have “fallen asleep.” In a blog post she wrote, “I think that they have been bored for a long time and are ready to be put to work.” She relates a story about one of her students at the Bethel Supernatural School of Ministry who claims God told her to go to the chapel and yell “WAKEY WAKEY!” As Johnson says,

Nothing happened for about five minutes, so [the student] turned around to cross the road to go over to a shop. As she turned around, she felt the ground begin to shake and heard this huge yawn. She looked back at the chapel, and a huge angel stepped out. All she could see were his feet because he was that large. She asked him who he was, and he turned to her and said, “I am the angel from the 1904 revival and you just woke me up.” She asked him, “Why have you been asleep?” The angel answered and said, “Because no one has been calling out for revival anymore.”

I am not going to call her a liar, nor that what she says happened didn't happen. I believe people until I find out differently. Others believe the worst and nothing anyone says will change their minds. Not saying that about you, but about those who call me a heretic. What I do know is that those who operate in faith, which Bill and Beni do, God will do anything.

Have you ever seen the video reenactment where two cars come together, but instead of crashing, they meld together and come back apart? Well that happened to me too! God also changed a brass screw into my mother's lost diamond ring, after telling me twice during 15 months that it would happen. So you see I am not going to put anything past what God will do. And no, it doesn't have to be sited in the Bible either. It just can't be evil. That is why I want to see this pagan thing you were talking about to see if they were worshiping it, or what. But until then, I will have faith in Bill Johnson's ministry. I've never seen gold dust, or feathers, but I have no doubt at all that some of this is real.

And I will always have the faith of a child, just like God wants me to have. And even if no one else sees miracles, I am totally open to them and to my God who likes to strengthen my faith - from glory to glory.

Here is the video clip:

I have started to read Calvin's commentary on 1 Corinthians 14. He says something interesting about the first chapter. He says that although there were all sorts of things going wrong in the Corinthian church, Paul still speaks of the church in positive terms, because of the true believers in it. It is basically the same where as Abraham negotiated, if there were 10 righteous men living in Sodom and Gomorrah, God would have spared the cities. It led me to think if there were true believers fellowshiping in the Bethel church, God could view it in positive terms even though there were non-Biblical things going on in it.

This is not to say that we should not challenge the heretical beliefs and practices, because we see that Paul did challenge the wrong things that were happening in the Corinthian church.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Here is the video clip:

I have started to read Calvin's commentary on 1 Corinthians 14. He says something interesting about the first chapter. He says that although there were all sorts of things going wrong in the Corinthian church, Paul still speaks of the church in positive terms, because of the true believers in it. It is basically the same where as Abraham negotiated, if there were 10 righteous men living in Sodom and Gomorrah, God would have spared the cities. It led me to think if there were true believers fellowshiping in the Bethel church, God could view it in positive terms even though there were non-Biblical things going on in it.

This is not to say that we should not challenge the heretical beliefs and practices, because we see that Paul did challenge the wrong things that were happening in the Corinthian church.

A staff? Are you serious? That's pagan? Remember Moses's staff?

Sorry, but I would like to see an unedited, less mocking witness to this. It looks like fake news to me.

What I would say to stay away from is that guy narrating. He's a mocker. Stay clear of anyone mocking other's worship. The black woman is an actress.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I ask my Lord specific yes or no questions, if He wants me to do something or not, concerning my life and business and those associated with me. Just as David did. I either get a yes or a no from Him by specific inner voice, or if nothing, then it is to wait. Sometimes I'm not asking the right question...

Of course the Lord speaks to us personally by His Spirit, inwardly in the heart and mind. It's if we think we are hearing Him outwardly or seeing visions, then we must make sure it is Scriptural; otherwise, the spirit of antichrist is creeping in on us...

Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

I've seen visions too. So did John. There is nothing antichrist about them. Where did you get such a notion?

I also ask specific questions that are neither yes nor no. And He answers with a word, and then knowledge or wisdom.

 

[Curtis]

What we see in the book of Acts is that sick people got healed, people were raised from the dead, demons were cast out, and the Gospel was preached with boldness and power. This is what really happens when the Holy Spirit is present.

Bill Johnson's theology is definitely suspect. He has departed from the simplicity of the Gospel. His view of the Holy Spirit is contrary to how Jesus described Him. His approach is well into New Age mysticism, so having gold dust and feathers raining down on his congregation is commensurate with his Christless theology and practice.

You have no clue whatsoever in your accusation of Bill Johnson.

He’s exactly right: Jesus did all His works by the Dunamis power of the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:38, same Holy Spirit Dunamis power the 125 received at Pentecost, that all believers get Acts 1:8.

As Acts shows, the early church healed the sick and raised the dead, plus preached Jesus, just like the 70, (not just 12 apostles), Jesus sent forth.

And Jesus said those who believe shall do the same works Jesus did, John 14:12.

Stephen, (not an apostle) full of faith and Dunamis power, did great miracles among the people Acts 6:8, to prove it wasn’t just 12 apostles who are empowered with power, but they who believe, John 14:12 again.

Accusing Johnson of leaving Jesus out of the equation is absolutely ludicrous, and FYI, we are warned in the NT to stay away from those in the last days, who have a form of Godliness, but deny the DUNAMIS (miracle working Holy Spirit power) thereof.

As in dead, dry, churches that deny spiritual gifts, physical healing, and miracles are for today, thus deny that believers have any HS Dunamis power today.

 

[Curtis]

I don't think you are Christless at all. You have demonstrated that you are totally Christ-centred. Your faith is not the issue here. It is Bill Johnson's theology.

There are some aspects of his theology that are alarming. Going down to New Mexico to "wake up angels" is quite peculiar. His teaching that we can be our own gods is another questionable teaching. The service where they had someone holding a pagan occult symbol and using it to evoke an outcome by chanting what sounded to me like a pagan incantation, is definitely off. And the fact that he does not preach the simple Gospel of Christ based on His finished work on the Cross is a real concern.

I really do think that you should take a more critical look at Bill Johnson's theology and compare it with the New Testament. It is what I have said previously that rat poison consists of 99.96% good food for rats, but the .04% of the poison in it kills rats stone dead. Bill Johnson's theology may be 90% correct, but it is the 10% heresy that spiritually kills unsuspecting believers.

I think you have no clue about the accusation of heresy that you use.

Heresy is denying the fundamentals of the faith - His virgin birth, sinless life, death on a cross for our sins, and bodily resurrection after three days - heresy is NOT any doctrine that you disagree with.

Johnson isn’t a heretic.

It’s cessationism that is wrong doctrine, BTW.

 

[Paul Christensen]

A staff? Are you serious? That's pagan? Remember Moses's staff?

Sorry, but I would like to see an unedited, less mocking witness to this. It looks like fake news to me.

What I would say to stay away from is that guy narrating. He's a mocker. Stay clear of anyone mocking other's worship. The black woman is an actress.

Oh come on! It was nothing like Moses' staff. It was a direct copy of Gandalf's and the pagan rant comes right out of the pages of Leo Tolstoy's book and from the mouth of a pagan character. It was exactly the type of useless repetition that Jesus spoke about when He said to avoid the useless repetitions of the pagans. I just cannot see how copying pagan chants while holding a pagan staff can glorify Christ with any stretch of the imagination. I just wonder what Jesus these people are following. Certainly not the Jesus of the Gospels.

 

[Paul Christensen]

You have no clue whatsoever in your accusation of Bill Johnson.

He’s exactly right: Jesus did all His works by the Dunamis power of the Holy Spirit, Acts 10:38, same Holy Spirit Dunamis power the 125 received at Pentecost, that all believers get Acts 1:8.

As Acts shows, the early church healed the sick and raised the dead, plus preached Jesus, just like the 70, (not just 12 apostles), Jesus sent forth.

And Jesus said those who believe shall do the same works Jesus did, John 14:12.

Stephen, (not an apostle) full of faith and Dunamis power, did great miracles among the people Acts 6:8, to prove it wasn’t just 12 apostles who are empowered with power, but they who believe, John 4:12 again.

Accusing Johnson of leaving Jesus out of the equation is absolutely ludicrous, and FYI, we are warned in the NT to stay away from those in the last days, who have a form of Godliness, but deny the DUNAMIS (miracle working Holy Spirit power) thereof.

As in dead, dry, churches that deny spiritual gifts, physical healing, and miracles are for today, thus deny that believers have any HS Dunamis power today.

If you are correct, then quote Johnson where he preaches the Gospel of Christ that concentrates on faith in the finished work of Christ on the Cross.

Paul's definition of an apostle is one who preaches the Gospel of Christ and who validates the preaching with signs and wonders following. It is not enough to say that healing and spiritual gifts are available, one has to demonstrate these things with real outcomes. Praying for the sick is not the same as seeing them actually healed. Just being called an apostle is not the same as actually being one, and the proof of apostleship is that he is recognised by all Gospel churches across the body of Christ, and not just within his own denomination.

The truth is that most churches, including Pentecostal and Charismatic ones don't recognise Bill Johnson as an apostle or even a recognised ministry across the body of Christ.

Here is a summary of Bethel Theology:

1. View of God: When they speak about God it often is more about God being an impersonal poweror force rather than a personal deity who invites a relationship through repentance and faith inJesus Christ. The emphasis is on an emotional experience of God than a clear understanding of hischaracter and his promises.

2. View of Jesus: They teach that Jesus was emptied of all of his deity so that he operated on earth as merely a man and not as fully God and fully man. The implication seems to be that Jesus is a model and example of the miracles we can do since everything he did was merely as a spirit empowered human being and not God himself. They teach that we as Christians are today the same as Christ was then on Earth with all of the rights and privileges. Jesus is then a miracle worker that we should imitate rather than the incarnate God who reveals the fullness of God to us

3. View of the Holy Spirit: Bethel’s theology presents the Holy Spirit not as a person to know but as a power or energy to experience, a power which we then have the ability to release as if we were sovereign over the third person of the trinity. When looking at their theology you are left with the impression that communion with God and the power of the Spirit is more about emotional experiences and miraculous signs than it is about conviction, spiritual fruit, and personal transformation.

4. Purpose of Salvation: Sin is viewed primarily as an obstacle to the fulfillment and victory that you are longing for as opposed to an offense of a Holy God that deserves eternal punishment. The motivation then for coming to Christ is to fulfill your longing for happiness, success, and healing. The power of the gospel is primarily focused on unleashing God’s supernatural power to give us what we want as if Jesus were a cosmic genie who exists to transform our circumstances rather than transforming our hearts. Rather than experiencing conviction for their sinful desires, people are encouraged to look to Jesus as the means to have their wishes fulfilled and their dreams come true. They indulge the flesh rather than repenting of it.

5. God’s Will is Always Healing: They teach that the death of Jesus makes it clear that God desires to take away our sin and our sickness, to remove every source of discomfort or discouragement from your life. Therefore, it is up to the worshipper to demonstrate sufficient faith and call into existence what Christ has already provided, their healing and personal breakthrough. On this topic Johnson declares “I refuse to create a theology that allows for sickness” arguing that “The price Jesus paid for my sins was more than sufficient for my diseases.” But Johnson goes a step farther. Referring to 2 Corinthians 12:7, where Paul refers to his “thorn in the flesh” Johnson states “[this] has been interpreted by many as disease allowed or brought on by God… That’s a different gospel.” Johnson believes a gospel that allows for Christians to suffer from disease is a form of the false gospel Paul warns about in Galatians 1:8

6. Signs and Wonders: Bethel equates the power of God with the experience of signs and wonders by God’s people. Therefore, Johnson asserts that if the gospel is not accompanied by signs and wonders then it should be considered a false gospel which must be rejected. Their “School of Supernatural Ministry” claims to teach students how to heal the sick, speak words of divine revelation, cast out demons, and even raise the dead. They believe that the world needs to encounter God not through the proclamation of the gospel or the truth of Scripture, but through the people of God demonstrating the power of God to show others the supernatural benefits you experience when you follow Christ. As a result, Johnson emphasizes the importance of bringing the power of heaven down to earth, using language like portals to heaven, anointings, and “open heaven” to describe tapping into God’s miracle working power to bring about signs and wonders to those we encounter. They teach that we bring God’s physical kingdom down to earth through spoken declarations and supernatural signs

7. Sufficiency of Scripture: Bethel teaches that it is our experience, not Scripture, that leads us into a right understanding of God and fuller experience of him. They are constantly seeking a new and personal revelation from God that goes beyond the divine revelation we find in Scripture. Referencing Hebrews 1, Bill Johnson asserts that the message of the Scriptures presents a ministry and a model that is not for today because we now have a fresh anointing and revelation through Jesus. He asserts. “Yesterday’s anointing is like yesterday’s manna.” This creates a dangerous elevation of an individual’s emotional experience over the revealed truth of Scripture which opens a path for the twisting of the biblical text and the introduction of new revelation.

8. Prayer as Power Declaration: Bethel’s view of prayer seems to be focused on speaking things into reality that they believe Jesus is already offering. They are not asking if God is willing to heal because they believe that he is always willing therefore they are declaring it into existence through words of faith. Therefore these are not requests, they are declarations which are aimed at releasing God’s power to bring about their desired outcome. This fits the “name it and claim it” pattern of prayer that most evangelicals would agree is presumptuous at best and blasphemous at worst.

9. Grave Soaking: There are some in their church who practice “grave soaking” in which they go to the grave of person they believed was powerfully used of God and then they prostrate themselves on the grave in order to absorb the anointing from God that was left behind when the person died.

 

[marksman]

I say yes what with fake healings,false prophecy, speaking things into existence, send me 5 dollars and God will give you 500.
All kinds of nonsense....but that's my belief.

That is like saying that driving a car will kill people as it ignores the fact that people have driven millions of miles and never killed a single person

No different to an atheist saying that religion is evil. Which religion are you talking about?

And that is not your belief. It is your predjudice so lets unpack what you have claimed.

What with fake healings?? So you believe that every healing is fake? I prayed for a young man who was in hospital brain dead and the surgeon said he would never walk again. Within a week of me praying he walked out of hospital. So you are saying that is fake.

False Prophecy. I had a prophecy from four different men at four different meetings at four different times and they all said the same thing. God was annointing me to be a teacher. I ended up training to be a teacher at University. So that is false is it?

Speaking things into existence. I have seen women who could not bear children come forward for prayer and someone has prayed a baby into existence. Nine months later she gave birth to a baby. That is false is it?

Send me five dollars etc....if you do that you deserve to be fleeced.

So what I would like to happen is for you to prove to me that the experiences I have had were false.

 

[Curtis]

The sign is against those that refuse to hear prophecy and believe God .It clearly does not support them

1 Corinthians 14: 21 In the law ( Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Apparently you don’t understand that prophesy is also an unknown tongue, and that it needs interpreted.

Paul write some things hard to understand, said Peter, and there are diversities of tongues, wrote Paul, meaning more than one kind, but he doesn't make it super clear that prophecy is also given in an unknown tongue - but unlike the unknown tongue that is never understood or interpreted, because it’s a personal prayer language where the Holy Spirit prays for us, Romans 8:26 and 1 Corinthians 14:2 - the prophetical unknown tongue has a message for a congregation that must be interpreted:

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Paul told the Corinthian church to forbid NOT speaking in tongues, because that would forbid the prophetical unknown tongue from being spoken:

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

[Paul Christensen]

What with fake healings?? So you believe that every healing is fake? I prayed for a young man who was in hospital brain dead and the surgeon said he would never walk again. Within a week of me praying he walked out of hospital. So you are saying that is fake.

Praying over a sick person is not the same as claiming healing for him. You prayed for the man and he got healed. That's not fake. It was Jesus showing compassion as the result of your prayer. It is an example of "the effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much". I have experience two notable outcomes of prayer for healing. When I pray for someone, I hold them by the wrist and say, "Jesus heals you". The first was for a woman who was diagnosed with a medical condition which mean that she was not able to conceive a child. I said to her, "Jesus heals you". Her husband informed me three months later that she conceived the very night I prayed the prayer. The second was for my work supervisor who had arthritis in her knee. I prayed exactly the same simple prayer, "Jesus heals this knee". Three weeks later she announced in a staff meeting that although the arthritis was there on the first Xray, it wasn't when the knee was Xrayed again. The doctor was puzzled. When she announced the results of the second Xray, my Christian workmate said to all the staff, "That was when Paul prayed for her!" Another time was when I got 30 people to pray for a woman with a chronic back problem. I told them to pray simple one sentence prayers. The woman sat in the "hot seat" and the 30 people came forward and prayed for one one by one. The next day, the church pastor emailed me and told me that she had the best night's painless sleep that she had in many years! When cessationists tell me that modern healing is fake, I just laugh at them.

False Prophecy. I had a prophecy from four different men at four different meetings at four different times and they all said the same thing. God was annointing me to be a teacher. I ended up training to be a teacher at University. So that is false is it?

Not false at all. The prophecies confirmed your training and the miracle would have been if those men had not known you from a bar of soap. I had prophecies for everyone in a home group and they were amazed how accurate those prophecies were, seeing that I was a visiting ministry and didn't know any of them. I prophesied over one guy that he would have a financial miracle, and everyone started getting really excited and told me afterward that the fellows was facing bankruptcy in his business. I had a prophecy over an elderly lady in a home group meeting that she wasn't long for this world. Six months later she passed away, and everyone in that home group know I had given that prophecy which came to pass. I had a prophetic word of knowledge over a young lady in a Christian camp meeting, not knowing that she was counselled for that very thing earlier in the afternoon. It was the most remarkable word of knowledge that I had ever had.

Speaking things into existence. I have seen women who could not bear children come forward for prayer and someone has prayed a baby into existence. Nine months later she gave birth to a baby. That is false is it?

That's called the gift of faith. When the Holy Spirit manifests a gift of faith, a creative word can be given to someone in need and the Holy Spirit will honour it.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Apparently you don’t understand that prophesy is also an unknown tongue, and that it needs interpreted.

Paul write some things hard to understand, said Peter, and there are diversities of tongues, wrote Paul, meaning more than one kind, but he doesn't make it super clear that prophecy is also given in an unknown tongue - but unlike the unknown tongue that is never understood or interpreted, because it’s a personal prayer language where the Holy Spirit prays for us, Romans 8:26 and 1 Corinthians 14:2 - the prophetical unknown tongue has a message for a congregation that must be interpreted:

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Paul told the Corinthian church to forbid NOT speaking in tongues, because that would forbid the prophetical unknown tongue from being spoken:

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Often an utterance in tongues in church is an intercession for the prophetic word to be released. The interpretation is the fulfillment of the intercession. Also, it can also release a series of prophetic words that can have a dynamic effect on the assembled group of believers. I have seen that happen and the glory of God came down in the meeting and some of the most hardened people were on their knees weeping and getting right with God. One I saw that happen, it spoiled me for everything else.

 

[Curtis]

2. View of Jesus: They teach that Jesus was emptied of all of his deity so that he operated on earth as merely a man and not as fully God and fully man. The implication seems to be that Jesus is a model and example of the miracles we can do since everything he did was merely as a spirit empowered human being and not God himself. They teach that we as Christians are today the same as Christ was then on Earth with all of the rights and privileges. Jesus is then a miracle worker that we should imitate rather than the incarnate God who reveals the fullness of God to us

Here’s where ignorance is evident, because that’s EXACTLY what the Bible teaches.

In Philippians 2:6-7 scripture clearly says that to take the form of a man, He first emptied Himself. The Greek word is Kenoo - to make empty, to make void, to make of non effect:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.


He had to divest Himself of the manifestation of deity to be born a human, since the fullness of Gods glory and power destroys human flesh - which is why God had to hide His glory when He passed by Moses, and why just touching the ark of the covenant when Gods Spirit was present in it, killed the one that touched it - His full glory and power would have killed Mary when put in her womb, had He not emptied Himself.

Thus Jesus could do no miracles until the Holy Spirit descended on Him at His baptism. Everything miraculous He did as a man on earth, was solely by being anointed with the Holy Spirit and Dunamis power Acts 10:38.

That’s the same Dunamis (miracle working Holy Ghost power) that is given to believers since Pentecost Acts 1:8 - which is why Jesus says that those who believe in Him can do the same works He did John 14:12, thus Jesus is not just our Savior and Lord, He is also our example of what a spirit-filled man can do through the power of the Holy Spirit.

You critics of the fact of the Kenosis of Christ, need to complain to God that He wrote Philippians 2:6-7 incorrectly, because He unequivocally emptied Himself to be born a man and humble servant on earth, and teaching that is biblical truth

BTW, He received back everything when He rose from the dead.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Here’s where ignorance is evident, because that’s EXACTLY what the Bible teaches.

In Philippians 2:6-7 scripture clearly says that to take the form of a man, He first emptied Himself. The Greek word is Kenoo - to make empty, to make void, to make of non effect:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,

Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.


He had to divest Himself of the manifestation of deity to be born a human, since the fullness of Gods glory and power destroys human flesh - which is why God had to hide His glory when He passed by Moses, and why just touching the ark of the covenant when Gods Spirit was present in it, killed the one that touched it - His full glory and power would have killed Mary when put in her womb, had He not emptied Himself.

Thus Jesus could do no miracles until the Holy Spirit descended on Him at His baptism. Everything miraculous He did as a man on earth, was solely by being anointed with the Holy Spirit and Dunamis power Acts 10:38.

That’s the same Dunamis (miracle working Holy Ghost power) that is given to believers since Pentecost Acts 1:8 - which is why Jesus says that those who believe in Him can do the same works He did John 14:12, thus Jesus is not just our Savior and Lord, He is also our example of what a spirit-filled man can do through the power of the Holy Spirit.

You critics of the fact of the Kenosis of Christ, need to complain to God that He wrote Philippians 2:6-7 incorrectly, because He unequivocally emptied Himself to be born a man and humble servant on earth, and teaching that is biblical truth

BTW, He received back everything when He rose from the dead.

What you have described is the old heresy of Nestorianism which separated the humanity of Jesus from the divine. It also is similar to Deism which believes that Jesus was merely a man and not God. Both of these heresies were rejected by the established Christian church.

 

[amadeus]

And how was it obvious when believers were filled with the HS by laying on of hands?

They spoke in tongues.

Yes, I am also one of those old time tongue talkers. Every morning in my personal time with God another language comes forth from my mouth and at time during the day. The hands have it, but how is it that God manifests the touch of His hands through people?

 

[Gary Urban]

Apparently you don’t understand that prophesy is also an unknown tongue, and that it needs interpreted.

Paul write some things hard to understand, said Peter, and there are diversities of tongues, wrote Paul, meaning more than one kind, but he doesn't make it super clear that prophecy is also given in an unknown tongue - but unlike the unknown tongue that is never understood or interpreted, because it’s a personal prayer language where the Holy Spirit prays for us, Romans 8:26 and 1 Corinthians 14:2 - the prophetical unknown tongue has a message for a congregation that must be interpreted:

1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.

1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Paul told the Corinthian church to forbid NOT speaking in tongues, because that would forbid the prophetical unknown tongue from being spoken:

1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

Yes and forbid not to speak prophecy words of understanding.

The word unknown used in that chapter was added. It is only unknown to them that look to wonders that produce doubt (no faith) as the end of a matter.

If a person forfeits the foundation of the doctrine of tongues as prophecy (Isaiah 28) as the law spoken of in 1 Corinthians 14: 22 -23 then they could make the sign support making senses noises and falling back slain in the spirit. The Holy Spirit reveals and yet for all that will they not hear me. He determines who hears as the source of faith.

Note. . .Men who believe prophecy or tongues ( green)

Note . . .men who have no faith needed to believe prophecy ( purple)

Note . . the law spoken of the Lord not subject to change as after an oral tradition (red)

1 Corihtians 14:21 In the law ((Isaiah 28)) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Prophecy the tongue of God is the understanding of God that works in mankind . When Christ spoke using Peter as a prophet men from all nations were converted at the hearing of their new born again faith .

The sign is against those who called the disciples drunks .They were not given the understanding of God.. What they heard from peter is what they were offering "senseless sounds" according to the law in Isaiah 28. .They as fools had no faith in a God not seen.

Isaiah 28 ;9-13 The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:“Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqawZe’er sham ze’er sham.” So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them: “Saw lasaw saw lasaw.Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.

 

[Amazed@grace]

It was Eric and Candice Johnson who resigned.

I misremembered. Thank you for clearing that up. The son of Bill, Eric, and his wife resigned as senior pastors. Thanks again. :)

 

[Amazed@grace]

Sorry, I didn't see this until now.

I've seen visions too. So did John. There is nothing antichrist about them. Where did you get such a notion?

I also ask specific questions that are neither yes nor no. And He answers with a word, and then knowledge or wisdom.

I too have had visions. Prophetic insight that ends up coming true. These were when I was awake, and in dreams.
God also speaks to us in words.

Considering the majority of scripture encompasses prophecy, we're in the wrong boat as bible readers and Christians, if prophetic visions and messages are antichrist.

Noah! What were you thinking? Following the leading of that voice and vision. Lot!You too, and don't think I've missed you there Mr. Moses!


;)

 

[Amazed@grace]

Bethel Church Janitor Getting Real Sick Of All This Gold Dust

*Babylon Bee is entirely satire. Just adding the article to interject a little levity.