Did Charismatic movement injure Church?

[CharismaticLady]

Feels the desire and need.

Not a regularized thing...

No, He tells me exactly what to pray.

 

[robert derrick]

No, He tells me exactly what to pray.

Exactly.

Do you ever just spend time in prayer in the Spirit?

 

[CharismaticLady]

God moves in mysterious ways and when He does something out of the ordinary, lives are changed and people get saved. That is why He does it. I've heard of others receiving gold teeth, so it is certainly possible. But was that gold dust closely examined to confirm it was actual gold dust and not something else coming down from the ventilation system as what happened in the Redding Bethel church?

What was Bill Johnson's response to the claims by the alleged janitor and those supposedly hired to put gold glitter in the ventilation system? Were they true or false witnesses?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Exactly.

Do you ever just spend time in prayer in the Spirit?

I do a lot of thanking and praising, but seldom pray in the Spirit unless led to. I do more listening for His voice. I also ask Him questions on Scripture per James 1:5-6 and He answers me. I don't need to wait to ask a question. That is what Jesus did in the Garden.

 

[Paul Christensen]

No, He tells me exactly what to pray.

In support of your reply: Doesn't the Scripture says, "Who knows the mind of the Spirit but the Spirit Himself?" Also, "We have the mind of Christ". and, "Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." So, being told what to pray is another way of saying that you are led by the Spirit of God, is it not?

 

[CharismaticLady]

In support of your reply: Doesn't the Scripture says, "Who knows the mind of the Spirit but the Spirit Himself?" Also, "We have the mind of Christ". and, "Those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." So, being told what to pray is another way of saying that you are led by the Spirit of God, is it not?

Yes. Before I was baptized in the Spirit in 1977, I never got an answer to prayer. On the Sunday after the Wednesday night I was filled, I heard the first prayer I was to pray for someone and it came to pass. I've heard His voice ever since, and have learned more and more how to be led in the Spirit.

However, in '78 I was moved to pray "Oh Lord bless her" without being led what to say. The next morning God spoke what He was going to do that day for her. I told her and the whole office heard me tell her. And just before we left for the day, God answered the prayer and what He told me came to pass.

 

[Paul Christensen]

What was Bill Johnson's response to the claims by the alleged janitor and those supposedly hired to put gold glitter in the ventilation system? Was they true or false witnesses?

Here is a quote from someone who visited the Bethel church:
"I walked into the auditorium and took a very close look at the ventilation system and lighting used in the auditorium along with the placement of the stage fixtures. I see that they have typical duct-work on the ceiling pointing down toward the floors for heating and air conditioning. What I also discovered are two rather large vents located on each side of the podium where Bill Johnson will stand, these are designed to blow air in an upward direction from the floor up to the ceiling.

Going to an AC specialist and drawing him a diagram of the building and stage, I asked him why would a stage have this kind of venting? He said simply to help stir the air for special effects such as fog machines. I was hopping he was going to say something like to help stir the air to keep the people on the stage comfortable. I then showed him the video of the alleged glory cloud tha is found on youtube and he said immediately they are using the the updraft of the vents to push the glitter back up to the ceiling! He asked me, have you ever see glitter painted boat and or show cars? Most likely they are using a paint grade glitter that will not plug up a spray nozzle, microscopic glitter."

Here is what Bill Johnson said about the feathers falling from the ceiling:
"When "angel feathers" first started to fall at Bethel Church, Bill Johnson thought birds had nested in the air conditioning ducts".

What we see in the book of Acts is that sick people got healed, people were raised from the dead, demons were cast out, and the Gospel was preached with boldness and power. This is what really happens when the Holy Spirit is present.

Bill Johnson's theology is definitely suspect. He has departed from the simplicity of the Gospel. His view of the Holy Spirit is contrary to how Jesus described Him. His approach is well into New Age mysticism, so having gold dust and feathers raining down on his congregation is commensurate with his Christless theology and practice.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Bill Johnson's theology is definitely suspect. He has departed from the simplicity of the Gospel. His view of the Holy Spirit is contrary to how Jesus described Him. His approach is well into New Age mysticism, so having gold dust and feathers raining down on his congregation is commensurate with his Christless theology and practice.

I would never say Christless about Bill Johnson's theology or Bethel. Just the opposite. He attributes much more power through Jesus than many churches and denomination today. I do too, and have seen many more miracles in my life that confirms scriptures than others, and they have even called me a heretic. Am I Christless too?

Is it really so unusual for a Christian to always receive what they pray for when it is 100% God's will?

 

[Amazed@grace]

I remember once when I was traveling alone between Illinois and Arizona and had been having car trouble off and on for months, a strange grinding noise, but my mechanic could never find it as it never happened when he test drove my van. I was driving up a long steep grade, 30 miles outside Oklahoma City on Interstate 40, and all of a sudden there was that grinding sound again coming from underneath of my vehicle, but now louder than ever! I could feel the vibrations with my feet. Instantly I heard God whisper to pray John 15:7. "If you abide in Me and My words abide in you, you may ask what you will and it will be done for you." Ask for a "Ford dealership." So I prayed, Lord I am abiding in You, and Your words do abide in me so I ask for a Ford dealership right now! Just after I crested the hill, there was an off ramp, and a Ford dealership at the bottom of it, out in the middle of nowhere.

That's excellent! :)

Out of curiosity, what did the dealership find was making that noise?

 

[CharismaticLady]

That's excellent! :)

Out of curiosity, what did the dealership find was making that noise?

Torque converter.

 

[Amazed@grace]

I think that dealership would be there regardless. Other people did business there.

You're really trying to tell a woman that it was coincidence and not God answering her prayer?

Did you read her testimony? She had issues with the car for awhile, no mechanic could find the problem or hear the same noise when they test drive her car.
Then, she's driving on a steep grade and that same noise gets louder and more scary of course given where she was, and after praying what God told her to pray, , for a Ford dealership, it was when she crested the hill that there was a Ford dealership.

Charadmsticlady, did you know that dealership was there, had you been in that area prior, before you crested that hill?

 

[CharismaticLady]

You're really trying to tell a woman that it was coincidence and not God answering her prayer?

Did you read her testimony? She had issues with the car for awhile, no mechanic could find the problem or hear the same noise when they test drive her car.
Then, she's driving on a steep grade and that same noise gets louder and more scary of course given where she was, and after praying what God told her to pray, , for a Ford dealership, it was when she crested the hill that there was a Ford dealership.

Charadmsticlady, did you know that dealership was there, had you been in that area prior, before you crested that hill?

No. I drove on I-40 before across country, but didn't know it was there.

 

[Amazed@grace]

No. I drove on I-40 before across country, but didn't know it was there.

God did. :)

So glad you made it to that dealership safely.

 

[CharismaticLady]

You're really trying to tell a woman that it was coincidence and not God answering her prayer?

Did you read her testimony? She had issues with the car for awhile, no mechanic could find the problem or hear the same noise when they test drive her car.
Then, she's driving on a steep grade and that same noise gets louder and more scary of course given where she was, and after praying what God told her to pray, , for a Ford dealership, it was when she crested the hill that there was a Ford dealership.

Charadmsticlady, did you know that dealership was there, had you been in that area prior, before you crested that hill?

P. S. That dealership couldn't get the part until the next day and told me it would be expensive. I told them I had an important government appointment that I couldn't miss. They told me to take it out of overdrive for the best chance to make it back to Arizona. So I did, and made my appointment. Then I took the van to my mechanic the day after to tell him what was wrong with it. He was also a Christian, and I believe needed this miracle as much as I did to constantly strengthen our faith. As soon as he started working on it he called me, and told me that the torque converter was so bad it fell apart in his hands the moment he touched it. He said, with a torque converter in that bad a shape there was no way I could have driven all the way to Illinois, stay for two months and drive all the way back. He was just as blessed as I was.

 

[Amazed@grace]

P. S. That dealership couldn't get the part until the next day and told me it would be expensive. I told them I had an important government appointment that I couldn't miss. They told me to take it out of overdrive for the best chance to make it back to Arizona. So I did, and made my appointment. Then I took the van to my mechanic the day after to tell him what was wrong with it. He was also a Christian, and I believe needed this miracle as much as I did to constantly strengthen our faith. As soon as he started working on it he called me, and told me that the torque converter was so bad it fell apart in his hands the moment he touched it. He said, with a torque converter in that bad a shape there was no way I could have driven all the way to Illinois, stay for two months and drive all the way back. He was just as blessed as I was.

Brilliant. That's God working right there. :) And blessing you both.

I love testimonies like this.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Brilliant. That's God working right there. :) And blessing you both.

I love testimonies like this.

He needed it even more than I did. He would get tested later. I've had many more miracles than he has.

 

[Paul Christensen]

I would never say Christless about Bill Johnson's theology or Bethel. Just the opposite. He attribute much more power through Jesus than many churches and denomination today. I do too, and have seen many more miracles in my life that confirms scriptures than others, and they have even called me a heretic. Am I Christless too?

Is it really so unusual for a Christian to always receive what they pray for when it is 100% God's will?

I don't think you are Christless at all. You have demonstrated that you are totally Christ-centred. Your faith is not the issue here. It is Bill Johnson's theology.

There are some aspects of his theology that are alarming. Going down to New Mexico to "wake up angels" is quite peculiar. His teaching that we can be our own gods is another questionable teaching. The service where they had someone holding a pagan occult symbol and using it to evoke an outcome by chanting what sounded to me like a pagan incantation, is definitely off. And the fact that he does not preach the simple Gospel of Christ based on His finished work on the Cross is a real concern.

I really do think that you should take a more critical look at Bill Johnson's theology and compare it with the New Testament. It is what I have said previously that rat poison consists of 99.96% good food for rats, but the .04% of the poison in it kills rats stone dead. Bill Johnson's theology may be 90% correct, but it is the 10% heresy that spiritually kills unsuspecting believers.

 

[Amazed@grace]

I don't think you are Christless at all. You have demonstrated that you are totally Christ-centred. Your faith is not the issue here. It is Bill Johnson's theology.

There are some aspects of his theology that are alarming. Going down to New Mexico to "wake up angels" is quite peculiar. His teaching that we can be our own gods is another questionable teaching. The service where they had someone holding a pagan occult symbol and using it to evoke an outcome by chanting what sounded to me like a pagan incantation, is definitely off. And the fact that he does not preach the simple Gospel of Christ based on His finished work on the Cross is a real concern.

I really do think that you should take a more critical look at Bill Johnson's theology and compare it with the New Testament. It is what I have said previously that rat poison consists of 99.96% good food for rats, but the .04% of the poison in it kills rats stone dead. Bill Johnson's theology may be 90% correct, but it is the 10% heresy that spiritually kills unsuspecting believers.

Just to interject here for a moment, I thought both Bill and his wife Candace Johnson resigned as senior pastors from Bethel church in 2020??

 

[robert derrick]

I do a lot of thanking and praising, but seldom pray in the Spirit unless led to. I do more listening for His voice. I also ask Him questions on Scripture per James 1:5-6 and He answers me. I don't need to wait to ask a question. That is what Jesus did in the Garden.

I ask my Lord specific yes or no questions, if He wants me to do something or not, concerning my life and business and those associated with me. Just as David did. I either get a yes or a no from Him by specific inner voice, or if nothing, then it is to wait. Sometimes I'm not asking the right question...

Of course the Lord speaks to us personally by His Spirit, inwardly in the heart and mind. It's if we think we are hearing Him outwardly or seeing visions, then we must make sure it is Scriptural; otherwise, the spirit of antichrist is creeping in on us...

 

[Gary Urban]

I would say many things spiritual etc...just make Christians feel better. I have some myself. Whether they are actually Scriptural or not doesn't really matter, so long as no one is actually hurt in the faith of Jesus by it, including ourselves.

Paul did however exhort believers in public assembly to keep our private feel good spiritual things to themselves. Assembling is not for tongues, but for prophecy, exhortation, ministry of the Scriptures...

I believe I COR 12 ought be more closely studied and recommended for our gathering together.

It's when our private things are allowed to spill over into the public domain, that all sorts of occasion of accusation and mockery is opened up. And of course some have made a whole industry out of it...

Not only chapter 12 but what I call the key of understanding the dctrine of tongues . I would suggest what does need to be studied more carefully is 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 it points back to foundation of the doctrine of tongues .

If we destroy that foundation Isaiah 28 then we can pretty much believe we should seek after lying wonders as those who fall back slain in the spirit of those that make senseless sounds . Destroying prophecy. . the gospel tongue of God.

The sign is against those that refuse to hear prophecy and believe God .It clearly does not support them

1 Corinthians 14: 21 In the law ( Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.