Forgiveness is to those who keep the commandments of the Lord.

[BloodBought 1953]

Does faith, to you, mean that you can do whatever you want and still be saved; even if what you want to do is to live carnally?

Is unbelief the notion that we are accountable to God for the things that we do in this life?

First sentence - yes, for example ,there was no church as Carnal as the one at Corinth, yet they were saved because of their Faith in Jesus....we all have the freedom to be as “ Carnal” As we like...Unfortunately, for the one that revels in his or her “ carnality”, God has the freedom to “take us to the woodshed” and whip that carnality out of us....what do you think “ the Chastisement Of The Lord” is all about ? It’s a Chatizement that goes as far as dropping you dead on your feet if you continue to disgrace the Body Of Christ.....one is still Saved, but taken Home years sooner than had you behaved yourself.....God ain’t gonna be Mocked by Disobedient and Foolish Believers....

Second sentence- Not sure what you mean, but every man will give an account of himself before Jesus.....there’s gonna be a lot of fear and shame and tears that day for some Carnal Believers , yet if they have ever Asked to be Saved at any point in their lifetimes.....they will be Saved ...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Lady, the truth is in the middle. The debate can be the amount of Grace we are afforded. There is no one here that is suggesting anyone be perfect....or that perfection is required for heaven. But you are standing in the middle of those that would suggest that child molesters that eat their victims would go to heaven as long as they believe in Christ. The extremes are always wrong. Those that preach that salvation is easily lost are wrong. Those that preach that no matter what you do, you are going to heaven, are wrong.

They use the word works to confuse their victims. They originally called Christianity the Way....not the ticket to heaven. If heaven is full of evildoers, what is hell for. If heaven is for evildoers....is there another place for God and good people to go. If you want to go to heaven, do your best to be good. Is that to much for God to ask?

Do not buy into this OSAS doctrine from hell. Think about what type of religion Satan would form....Don't worry about sinning! Lets sin and sin some more because Christ paid for it and we all have a guaranteed ticket to heaven! If heaven is for evil....the worst of evil...are you saying you would fit right in with the child molesters, the murders, the abortion doctors that have murdered thousands of babies. Are you saying that is the sort you want to spend eternity with. Good people would not want any of that. What they describe as heaven. is hell without fire. Do not fall for this wicked heresy. Do not stand with evildoers and thick you can make a fool out of Christ.

I’m not OSAS...that’s odd.

Of COURSE you should try your best to be good, decent, mannered, not to cause harm to anyone.

I’m confused as to how you’ve come to the conclusion that I think murder is okay. I believe to have anger in my heart is murder because our Lord said it. I do NOT think it’s okay when I murder. I’ve spent long years weeping over my murders and wondering WHY I cannot stop them.

The danger of following the letter of the law is not that it makes the outside of my cup clean. The danger is if I then think that makes the inside of my cup clean as well, because then I will condemn a murderer when I myself am a murderer. So you see how deceptive following the law can be. It makes men think well of themselves when they should be wearing sackcloth and ashes, weeping over their murdering and praying for what they lack. This is hungering for true righteousness. God blesses and gives more grace/power to those who hunger for righteousness. I am the living proof of that.

 

[Grailhunter]

I’m confused as to how you’ve come to the conclusion that I think murder is okay

I did not say that...I am confused how you figure I did. Then from reading your post you seemed to be siding with OSAS. Which mean never unsaved....no matter what you do or how many people a person murders.

 

[Grailhunter]

The danger of following the letter of the law is not that it makes the outside of my cup clean.

First off we do not have a letter of the law to follow. If you are talking about the Mosaic Law, if you attempt to follow that you are severed from Christ and have fallen from Grace.

The danger is if I then think that makes the inside of my cup clean as well, because then I will condemn a murderer when I myself am a murderer.

I disagree on couple levels here. No one that opposes OSAS is advocating perfecting, but is it too much for God to ask us to try to be good.

And as far as condemning a murder......how many scriptures you want on condemning sin and confronting sinners....just give me a number.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay...wow...
It’s enough.

If I had any advice to give you and if you would even want to ponder any advice, I would advise you to make an attempt at trying to understand a point (one point) being discussed without trying to cover everything at once. Did you ever take a biology class where you had to dissect say...the eye of a sheep? The point is to actually dissect the eye and examine the parts that make up the eye, not to keep trying to put it back into the sheep to examine the sheep intact from the outside. Look at a point as a point. Examine the point. You are taking distress where no distress is necessary and in the process you are not hearing the point a person is discussing and are making all sorts of wrong conclusions about what a man thinks and believes.

 

[justbyfaith]

First sentence - yes, for example ,there was no church as Carnal as the one at Corinth, yet they were saved because of their Faith in Jesus....we all have the freedom to be as “ Carnal” As we like...

I believe that you are mistaken because of the following.

Rom 8:12, Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13, For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Here, I think that your loophole is to say that it is talking about physical life and death here...

Whereas you cannot prove that it is not talking about spiritual life and death.

Therefore, since you cannot prove your interpretation, you ought to consider that being carnal has the capacity to produce spiritual death in the believer; for in James 1:14-16 the final words are, "do not be deceived"...

Which indicates that there is a deception that might be propagated here.

The deception being that when sin is fully grown it will only produce physical death.

If that were the case then those who receive entire sanctification in this life will never die physically.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I did not say that...I am confused how you figure I did. Then from reading your post you seemed to be siding with OSAS. Which mean never unsaved....no matter what you do or how many people a person murders.

I see you understand perfectly well what outward murder is, as you preach quite vociferously against it. No one here is advocating for it.

what you don’t understand yet is that God says anger inside is to have ALREADY murdered. Can a single man here therefore say, I have kept the command to not murder all of my life?

 

[justbyfaith]

Does faith, to you, mean that you can do whatever you want and still be saved; even if what you want to do is to live carnally?

First sentence - yes, for example ,there was no church as Carnal as the one at Corinth, yet they were saved because of their Faith in Jesus....we all have the freedom to be as “ Carnal” As we like...

So, grace means that I can sin and still be saved, correct?

Just trying to get an accurate understanding of your theology.

If the answer to the question is yes, my next question is,

Does that apply to sins like murder?

 

[justbyfaith]

I see you understand perfectly well what outward murder is, as you preach quite vociferously against it. No one here is advocating for it.

what you don’t understand yet is that God says anger inside is to have ALREADY murdered. Can a single man here therefore say, I have kept the command to not murder all of my life?

1Jo 3:15, Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

I think that what matters is that you not have any hatred for your brother in your heart in the present moments of your life.

 

[Grailhunter]

I see you understand perfectly well what outward murder is, as you preach quite vociferously against it. No one here is advocating for it.

what you don’t understand yet is that God says anger inside is to have ALREADY murdered. Can a single man here therefore say, I have kept the command to not murder all of my life?

I reject this concept...they use to call it mudding the water....so everything is grey areas so all amount of sin is forgiven. And most of us do not murder...most Christians are not child molesters...serial rapists...there is a right and a wrong and most Christians know that and do not give up trying to be good because some one like you suggest that all sin is the same.

Have to think past your nose. How can you not lose your salvation? That would be the question. The alternative is that no one would lose their salvation and heaven would be full of evildoers. Every type of sin! murderers...child molesters.....child molester that ate their victims....seral rapists.

Then the question would be....what is hell for? Another question would be, if heaven is for evil, were is God and good people going to go? If heaven is for evil, how is that a reward for good people? It would seem to be an eternal punishment for good people. My yoke is easy and my burden is light and plenty of light so you see all the magnificent evil in heaven.

Your thinking is messed up!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

1Jo 3:15, Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Even this verse can be taken the wrong way by a man. It speaks about holiness and not about the righteousness a man can do or ever be capable of. If any man is brought by God to see himself truly in light of this verse, He will admit (eventually, after he has struggled with the sin he sees in him) that God is asking of him what he is not capable of. It’s meant to make him cry out to God for more of Gods own righteousness and more grace/power.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I reject this concept...they use to call it mudding the water....so everything is grey areas so all amount of sin is forgiven. And most of us do not murder...most Christians are not child molesters...serial rapists...there is a right and a wrong and most Christians know that and do not give up trying to be good because some one like you suggest that all sin is the same.

Have to think past your nose. How can you not lose your salvation? That would be the question. The alternative is that no one would lose their salvation and heaven would be full of evildoers. Every type of sin! murderers...child molesters.....child molester that ate their victims....seral rapists.

Then the question would be....what is hell for? Another question would be, if heaven is for evil, were is God and good people going to go? If heaven is for evil, how is that a reward for good people? It would seem to be an eternal punishment for good people. My yoke is easy and my burden is light and plenty of light so you see all the magnificent evil in heaven.

Your thinking is messed up!

And there you go again saying most of us do not murder. If God has spoken the truth that to have anger is to have murdered, how can you say most men, let alone most Christians, have never murdered? So, has God spoken rightly that to have anger, resentment, hatred is murder or is His thinking messed up on that?

You have some confusion about the righteousness a man is capable of versus the righteousness and holiness of God. Some verses are speaking of righteousness and some are speaking of holiness. God accepts the righteous. As my friend Episkopos says, aim for righteousness and trust God and He may take you into holiness. But even if He never does in this lifetime, God accepts righteous men and makes a place for them.

So aim for righteousness and trust God, have faith in Him. You cannot be holy unless God takes you there.

 

[Grailhunter]

And there you go again saying most of us do not murder. If God has spoken the truth that to have anger is to have murdered, how can you say most men, let alone most Christians, have never murdered? So, has God spoken rightly that to have anger, resentment, hatred is murder or is His thinking messed up on that?

Hatred is a thing of the mind....and it is very bad. Control your mind and you will not physically sin. This is the teaching of Christ. Love in your mind and you will be loving. If you lust after a woman and you have committed adultery. But what you are thinking wrong.
What you are saying gives Christians a license to sin. Make a fool our of Christ. Messed up!

You have some confusion about the righteousness a man is capable of versus the righteousness and holiness of God. Some verses are speaking of righteousness and some are speaking of holiness. God accepts the righteous. As my friend Episkopos says, aim for righteousness and trust God and He may take you into holiness. But even if He never does in this lifetime, God accepts righteous men and makes a place for them.

Episkopos is a snake in the grass. A danger to all that is innocent. He and I had it out as soon as I got on this forum. Christianity is about good and not a reason to condone sin. And evildoers will go to hell. We all fall short of God, but He counts on us to be good the best we can. Heaven will not be full of evil. Hell will be full of evil. If you are a Christian and what to go to heaven, be good. If not, you will be a Christian in hell.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Hatred is a thing of the mind....and it is very bad. Control your mind and you will not physically sin. This is the teaching of Christ. Love in your mind and you will be loving. If you lust after a woman and you have committed adultery. But what you are thinking wrong.
What you are saying gives Christians a license to sin. Make a fool our of Christ. Messed up!

Control your mind? Or trust God to renew your mind? Because I tried for years to control my mind so as to not murder and I do not recommend it. I recommend to bypass all those many years of pain and futility and failure and to instead trust God to birth the child that receives the blessing. It was only when I gave up trying and asked for what I saw I lacked that He gave me the grace, the power, to not be controlled by my passions. All those miserable years and then victory over my enemies in an instant? There is no mistaking God silencing your enemies that suddenly. And I am telling you, it happened when I gave up my own striving, asked for the love I saw I lacked, and waited in trust that He would help me since it was clearly apparent I would remain as I was otherwise.

 

[Grailhunter]

Control your mind? Or trust God to renew your mind?

Both...I am not a Calvinist so God does not control our mind. If you cannot control your mind, you have no hope of controlling what you do...so then what are you. Renew our Spirit and amend our ways, that is what it is all about.

Because I tried for years to control my mind so as to not murder and I do not recommend it.

So how many lives have you taken? If you talking about anger, it is not the same. Whoever convinced you of that is of the devil. Away of convincing you that there is no hope for being good, so why try?

I recommend to bypass all those many years of pain and futility and failure and to instead trust God to birth the child that receives the blessing.

So you trust God to embrace sin? Bad move?

It was only when I gave up trying and asked for what I saw I lacked that He gave me the grace, the power, to not be controlled by my passions.

And this is exactly it...the doctrine of Satan...give up! There is no sense in trying to be good! Don't worry all sin is forgiven and all evil is going to heaven. Such hog wash!

All those miserable years and then victory over my enemies in an instant? There is no mistaking God silencing your enemies that suddenly. And I am telling you, it happened when I gave up my own striving,

LOL Once you give up trying to be good...the devil has won...why would he continue to mess with you.

asked for the love I saw I lacked, and waited in trust that He would help me since it was clearly apparent I would remain as I was otherwise.

We are all lacking and we all need his help, but that does not mean that we can go on sinning and sin some more and expect a reward in heaven. If you believe in Christ and want to go to heaven....Be Good.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So how many lives have you taken? If you talking about anger, it is not the same. Whoever convinced you of that is of the devil. Away of convincing you that there is no hope for being good, so why try?

You are saying whoever convinced me that to have anger in my heart is to have murdered already is of the devil...? It is our Lord who said it and convinced me of it. Do you know the passage I’m speaking of?

There IS hope for being good. But it isn’t through my own hard work, I tried that for so many years. It did not get me anything but that I was the sameangry and resentful person 14 years later.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

So, grace means that I can sin and still be saved, correct?

Just trying to get an accurate understanding of your theology.

If the answer to the question is yes, my next question is,

Does that apply to sins like murder?

Yep—- murder is included.....just ask three Murderers we know that are in Heaven today as we speak..Moses....David.....Paul....

 

[Grailhunter]

You are saying whoever convinced me that to have anger in my heart is to have murdered already is of the devil...?

Correct. Your line of thinking is dangerous. If you get angry or think about killing somebody, and you think that is the same as murder, you might just kill the person because you think it is all the same. It is not!

It is our Lord who said it and convinced me of it. Do you know the passage I’m speaking of?

The Mosaic Law was about static written laws. What Christ teaches is of the mind and the heart. If you get your mind and your heart in the right place, the physical action of sin will be reduced. It is not about if you lust in the heart or get angry with someone that you are an adulterer or murder....Your body is controlled by your mind, you control the mind you control the body.

There IS hope for being good. But it isn’t through my own hard work, I tried that for so many years. It did not get me anything but that I was the sameangry and resentful person 14 years later.

Well ya know, not everybody has that problem. Being good...hard work? You will have to explain that one. Usually sinning is a matter of work...you do something wrong. I have read your posts and you do have some issues. Anger management or anxieties are certainly something you can take to the Lord...but finding a good therapist is probably a good idea to.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Correct. Your line of thinking is dangerous. If you get angry or think about killing somebody, and you think that is the same as murder, you might just kill the person because you think it is all the same. It is not!



The Mosaic Law was about static written laws. What Christ teaches is of the mind and the heart. If you get your mind and your heart in the right place, the physical action of sin will be reduced. It is not about if you lust in the heart or get angry with someone that you are an adulterer or murder....Your body is controlled by your mind, you control the mind you control the body.



Well ya know, not everybody has that problem. Being good...hard work? You will have to explain that one. Usually sinning is a matter of work...you do something wrong. I have read your posts and you do have some issues. Anger management or anxieties are certainly something you can take to the Lord...but finding a good therapist is probably a good idea to.

Oh yeah, everyone does have that problem. They may not yet know they have that problem, but they have it.

 

[Grailhunter]

Oh yeah, everyone does have that problem. They may not yet know they have that problem, but they have it.

This sort of thing can make you feel alone. Who can feel your pain? How many people on this forum have problems...emotional anxieties, mental issues. I feel for them, but I cannot feel their pain. And good therapists are not easy to find and the medications are not much more than a sad patch. So they self medicate with drugs. Alternate realities...sedation.... I am hoping for something different for them in the not to distant future.