The 'blessed virgin Mary'
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Philip James
Well-Known Member
Hello Jun,
'the least in the Kingdom of God' is greater than John the Baptist..
Are you suggesting that Mary is not in the Kingdom?
Peace be with you!
Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
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Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Taodeching
Active Member
Absolutely. No more no less. Mary was highly favored. She stood on the same ground with all believers, we know because God is no respecter of persons!
I should hope so.
I was merely echoing what Jesus uttered in Luke 7:26-28.
In the sense as being the least in the kingdom of God and as believers, are we greater than John the Baptist.
What gave you that idea?
To you as well.
He has risen indeed!
To God Be The Glory
I'm a musician and the song "Ave Maria" is one of many songs in the world that is considered well written and well composed, but alas! it should not be taken that it has any kinds of spiritual value.
To God Be The Glory
To God Be The Glory
Taodeching
Active Member
Not quite. God has given us many examples of prayer in the Bible specially in the Book of Psalms.
Many customers of mine have requested me to sing "Ave Maria" in funeral homes as this song is most requested by loved ones. But instead I would rather see a believer write a melody for Psalms 23.
To God Be The Glory
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"Queen of heaven, Queen conceived without stain of sin. Ark of the Covenant, Door of heaven, Star of the morning, Healer of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Queen of the angels, Queen of the patriarchs, Queen of the confessors, Queen of all saints, Mystic Rose, Tower of David, Holy Mother of God, Holy Virgin of virgins, Mother of divine grace, Virgin worthy of veneration, Virgin worthy of praise, Powerful virgin, Merciful Virgin, Mirror of righteousness, Throne of wisdom, Source of our joy, Spiritual vessel, Venerable vessel"
Well, if it comes down to sheer weight and number of titles, queen mother and holy power worthy of praise in the divine highest Mary wins.
Why would I try to burst that bubble for some body that feels all warm and fuzzy about it.
I mean what does Jesus have to compare to all that? Lord and God? Big whoop...
Well, if it comes down to sheer weight and number of titles, queen mother and holy power worthy of praise in the divine highest Mary wins.
Why would I try to burst that bubble for some body that feels all warm and fuzzy about it.
I mean what does Jesus have to compare to all that? Lord and God? Big whoop...
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Thank you!
You seemed to be suggesting that Mary is not greater than the Baptist.
If the least in the Kingdom is greater than he, and Mary is in the Kingdom, then Mary is greater than John, no?
What is the place of the mother of the King?
Peace!
Well, it's your and your church's assessment and NOTHING to do with Scripture! Mary was highly favored, in other words, God could have chosen any virgin woman to bear the Christ, as Scripture have stipulated.
If I read you correctly, it seems that you are elevating Mary above Jesus? In Christendom that is called blasphemy!!!
To God Be The Glory
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Yes I am. ALL saved people stand equal with God. There's no respecter of persons with God!
NO. BECAUSE she too needed a Savior as with all saved individuals [Luke 1:46-47]:
"And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour."
A saved person like any other believer!
To God Be The Glory
Exactly opposite.
The Virgin Mary apologists have been trying to convince us all that they are not elevating her to even being equal with the Lord Jesus nor God, as Coredemptrix (did I get that right?) or whatever. Then they post this song of Ave Maria and translate all the titles sung in it. So, the song maker, being Catholic certainly believed she is all these things...
My point is, euphemistically, that with the titles alone she wins the contest of Who's most essential in heaven. I mean, all Jesus has going for Him is Lord God and Savior...3 titles compared to how many for Mary?
Philip James
Well-Known Member
Hello Jun,
I don't think that means what you suggest. Unless you mean by that, that we all reign with Christ!
But not all of us have the same place or function within the kingdom...
Consider how Soloman honoured his mother:
Then Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, and the king stood up to meet her and paid her homage. Then he sat down upon his throne, and a throne was provided for the king's mother, who sat at his right.
Do you think Jesus honours His mother less than Soloman?
Peace!
BreadOfLife
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So do I - and so should YOU.
The only Titles in the Ave Maria are "Full of Grace" (Luke 1:28) and "Mother of God", which is absolutely IS if you believe Jesus to be God.
Ummm, that's only TWO, by my count . . .
THREE titles??
Really??
Maybe YOU limit Him to just three - but we Catholics have a LITANY of titles for our Lord . . .
Jesus, Son of the living God
Jesus, splendor of the Father
Jesus, brightness of everlasting light
Jesus, king of glory
Jesus, dawn of justice
Jesus, Son of the Virgin Mary
Jesus, worthy of our love
Jesus, worthy of our wonder
Jesus, mighty God
Jesus, father of the world to come
Jesus, prince of peace
Jesus, all-powerful
Jesus, pattern of patience
Jesus, model of obedience
Jesus, gentle and humble of heart
Jesus, lover of chastity
Jesus, lover of us all
Jesus, God of peace
Jesus, author of life
Jesus, model of goodness
Jesus, seeker of souls
Jesus, our God
Jesus, our refuge
Jesus, father of the poor
Jesus, treasure of the faithful
Jesus, Good Shepherd
Jesus, the true light
Jesus, eternal wisdom
Jesus, infinite goodness
Jesus, our way and our life
Jesus, joy of angels
Jesus, king of patriarchs
Jesus, teacher of apostles
Jesus, master of evangelists
Jesus, courage of martyrs
Jesus, light of confessors
Jesus, purity of virgins
Jesus, crown of all saints
To name a few . . .
Jesus is LORD - Mary isn't.
She is His MOTHER - so get your facts straight . . .
GM Philip,
Yes we reign with Jesus but I'm not aware we have different functions within the kingdom of heaven. Perhaps you can enlighten my ignorance?
Jesus NEVER acknowledged Mary as His "mother" or called her "mother" as per John 2:4. I wonder why? Is it because to be the mother of God [as many claim Mary to be] Mary also had to be a God?
To God Be The Glory
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True. "Woman what have I to do with thee?" (John 2)
The Mary apologists like to think they are simply calling Mary 'Jesus mother on earth' , when they refer to her as 'The Mother of God'. And by their own words her title goes from little 'm' mother blessed among women to really big 'M' Mother blessed Above women...
Childish and disingenuous. I prefer people to state what they mean without equivocating due to the results of that they mean...
In the end, whatever. Let them worship the Father and the Son and the Mother, and we can worship with the Father and the Son...
'Mary Mother of God' believers:
Babes who have yet to grow to full age in the first principles of the doctrine of the Lord Jesus and God the Father.
The only thing 'perpetual' about the mystical 'Mary' is the perpetual babes drinking only her milk, and not eating the strong meat of the doctrine of Christ:
"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." (Heb 5)
This is literal. For it is impossible to grow up unto full age and stature of the Son (Eph 4), while still clinging to the mystical apron strings of a 'Mother'.
They want to run to their 'mother Mary' in times of trouble, that she would take them in her arms and rock them gently, while telling them to shush, because everything is going to be alright.
I do get it, I just don't do it.
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1 Cor 13)
Those are some apron strings that probably ought be cut, but to each his own...
Babes who have yet to grow to full age in the first principles of the doctrine of the Lord Jesus and God the Father.
The only thing 'perpetual' about the mystical 'Mary' is the perpetual babes drinking only her milk, and not eating the strong meat of the doctrine of Christ:
"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat." (Heb 5)
This is literal. For it is impossible to grow up unto full age and stature of the Son (Eph 4), while still clinging to the mystical apron strings of a 'Mother'.
They want to run to their 'mother Mary' in times of trouble, that she would take them in her arms and rock them gently, while telling them to shush, because everything is going to be alright.
I do get it, I just don't do it.
"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1 Cor 13)
Those are some apron strings that probably ought be cut, but to each his own...
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When people have no reply to an argument they descend to mockery.
"Mockery and abuse issue from the proud man, but vengeance lies in wait for him like a lion." (Sirach 27:28)
"But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh" (Prov 1)
So, you see it all depends on where each stands: God mocks them that refuse His counsel, and the proud mock them that teach His Word.
One here is defending the gospel of the Cross of Jesus Christ against false doctrine, or one here is setting at naught the counsel of true doctrine of Scripture.
One man's treasure is another's man's trash and visa versa.
If the One and Only Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, and mid-Mediator between man and the man Christ Jesus is in fact true doctrine of Christ, then I am setting at naught God's counsel and mocking God's teacher.
But, if this 'Mary' is not, then you are setting at naught God's counsel and reproof, while mocking the Scripture with false doctrine.
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