The 'blessed virgin Mary'

[robert derrick]

Daughter of Zion
The Prophet Zephaniah 3:14-20 speaks of the Daughter of Zion, the personification of the city of Jerusalem. Let us reflect on the significance of this title of the holy city of Jerusalem and see how and why the Church appropriated the title for Mary, Mother of the Lord.

Daughter of Zion is the personification of the city of Jerusalem. Zion was the name of the Jebusite citadel that later became the City of David. In the many texts of the Old Testament that speak of the Daughter of Zion, there is no real distinction to be made between a daughter of Zion and the city of Jerusalem itself.

In the Old Testament, the title Virgin of Israel is the same as the Daughter of Zion. The image of the bride of the Lord is found in Hosea, Chapters 1-3: It reflects the infidelity of the people to their God.

Jeremiah 3:3-4 speaks of prostitution and the infidelity of the bride. Virginity in the Old Testament is fidelity to the Covenant. In 2 Corinthians 11:2, Paul speaks of the Church as a pure virgin. Here, virginity is the purity of faith.

Throughout the Old Testament, it is in Zion-Jerusalem that God shall gather together all of his people. In Isaiah 35:10, the tribes of Israel shall gather in Zion. In Ezekiel 22:17-22, the prophet describes God’s purification of his people that shall take place “within” the walls of the city, in the midst of Jerusalem.

The Hebrew word used to describe this inner section of the city is “beqervah,” a word formed from the root “qerev” meaning something deep, intimate, situated deep within a person. It also means the maternal womb, the intestines, the breast, the insides of a person, the most secret area of one’s soul where wisdom, spirit, malice and the Law of the Lord dwell. Therefore, the city of Jerusalem has a definite maternal function in the history of salvation.

In the Christian Tradition

The Second Vatican Council formally called Mary “Daughter of Zion” in the dogmatic constitution on the Church “Lumen Gentium” (No. 52). The Church’s appropriation of this title for the Mother of the Lord has a rich Scriptural foundation. Mary illustrates the prophecies of the Old Testament that ascribed value to the eschatological role of woman as mother both of the Messiah and of the new people of God.

The title Daughter of Zion evokes the great biblical symbolism of the Messianic Zion. Mary illustrates the prophecies of the Hebrew Scriptures which ascribed value to the eschatological role of woman as mother both of the Messiah and of the new people of God: the individual person and the whole people being very closely united, in line with the cultural structures of Israel.

For the prophets, the Daughter of Zion was the spouse of the Lord when she observed the covenant. Mary’s role as Daughter of Zion, or for that matter any of her roles in the life of God’s people, can never be understood independently of Christ and of the Spirit, which he bestows upon all humanity in dying on the cross.

“Lumen Gentium” says that all theology and Marian piety belong to the mystery of Christ and to the mystery of the Church.

Mary, Daughter of Zion, is the archetype of the Church as Bride, Virgin and Mother. It is not only biological virginity, but also spiritual virginity, which means fidelity to the Scriptures, openness toward others, and purity in faith.

Mary’s words to the servants at the wedding banquet in Cana (John 2:1-12) are an invitation to all peoples to become part of the new people of God. Mary is the new “Daughter of Zion” because she has invited the servants to perfectly obey Jesus the Lord. At Cana this new Daughter of Zion has given voice to all people.

Both at Cana and at Calvary (in John’s Gospel), Mary represents not only her maternity and physical relationship with her son, but also her highly symbolic role of Woman and Mother of God’s people. At Calvary, more than any other place in the fourth Gospel, Mary is “Mother Zion”: her spiritual maternity begins at the foot of the cross.

As “Mother Zion,” she not only welcomes and represents Israel, but the Church, the People of God of the New Covenant. At the foot of the cross, Mary is the mother of the new messianic people, of all of those who are one in Christ.

She who bore Jesus in her womb now takes her place in the assembly of God’s holy people. She is the new Jerusalem: In her own womb was the Temple, and all peoples shall be gathered back to the Temple, which is her Son. The Mother of Jesus is indeed the Mother of all of God’s scattered children. She is Mother of the Church. Mary is the first Daughter of Zion, leading all of God’s people on the journey toward the Kingdom.

"As “Mother Zion,” she not only welcomes and represents Israel, but the Church, the People of God of the New Covenant. At the foot of the cross, Mary is the mother of the new messianic people, of all of those who are one in Christ. She who bore Jesus in her womb now takes her place in the assembly of God’s holy people. She is the new Jerusalem: In her own womb was the Temple, and all peoples shall be gathered back to the Temple, which is her Son. The Mother of Jesus is indeed the Mother of all of God’s scattered children. She is Mother of the Church. Mary is the first Daughter of Zion, leading all of God’s people on the journey toward the Kingdom."

"by good words and fair speeches..." (Rom 16) While I applaud your perfected learning and assembly of great smooth and sweet-sounding words (believe me I do. I know how much hard work and book-learning must have gone into that little speech. Not a wasted word anywhere...)

However, of course, it is, how shall I say it? Lot's of womb-talk, but no Scriptural writ.

"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem and New Mary, descending out of heaven from God." ( Rev 21) No. I'm not thinking so.

"Therefore, the city of Jerusalem has a definite maternal function in the history of salvation."

Correct. The mother of us all, the ministry of Christ and of God. Now you can give her a name, say 'Mary', if you want, but the dead in Christ and soon to be resurrected Saint in Christ Jesus, who gave birth to Him in the flesh. Not that Mary. She will be in New Jerusalem with and among us all.

She has not been mystified nor mastizied into a city-womb for us all to dwell in forever. That my friends is straight out of Pagan 101: How to turn human beings into Celestial Constellations. By Zeus, or by Jove.

(But once again, truly from the heart, I do admire your flowing words of silk and honey)

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies..." (Rev 13)

Just because it sounds really great, don't make it so.

 

[robert derrick]

Sure, heresy 101. You are now denying the Trinity with your explanation. Whether or not Scripture call's Jesus by name or Christ by name or not He has always existed from time immemorial. There was never a time, ever that Jesus Christ was not God and He didn't just poof and become a flesh god as you want to say when Mary gave birth. Mary gave birth to God, not by creation but by the fact of the hypostatic union. Christ always was, always is, and always will be.

What ever you are it is not an orthodox Christian

Ok, I am being to literal in Scripture with you. I apologize. Just leave that esoteric stuff aside, that I have tried to explain to you, and I will speak the truth of the 'Trinity' if God:

Jesus the Son of God is the true God. God the Father is the true God. God the Holy Spirit is the true God. They are each the true God individually, 3 eternal and everlasting Persons, united perfectly together in the One true God.

The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father. They are all three distinct Persons together in the One true God from everlasting to everlasting.

Now, since you apparently have full understanding of such things:

How is it, that the true God Jesus upon the earth, while praying to the Father in heaven calls Him, the only true God. (John 17:3)?

 

[robert derrick]

"Mary "assisted" in our redemption and she assists in our mediation with Christ."

What? Did she help hold the cross up, while Jesus was on it? Sort of like the man from Cyrene that helped carry it to the hill?

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim 2)

No assistants. The only assist Mary had for anyone was as a sister in the Lord.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Just the mixed with mans part.

Scripture can stay.

Or maybe you like the mixed with mans part? Got some favorites of your own, you'd like to share?

Sarcasm...smh.

 

[Illuminator]

"Mary "assisted" in our redemption and she assists in our mediation with Christ."

What? Did she help hold the cross up, while Jesus was on it? Sort of like the man from Cyrene that helped carry it to the hill?

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God's will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education.
"co" just simply does NOT mean "equal to".

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim 2)

Subordinate mediators (such as you) are entirely dependent on the One Mediator, or that verse forbids you from being a subordinate mediator every time you pray for someone, which is absurd. 1 Tim 2 does not disprove the doctrine of the Communion of Saints one single bit.

No assistants. The only assist Mary had for anyone was as a sister in the Lord.

And not a Living Temple? Your anti-Mary animus is not biblical. Please use the quote feature so you don't butcher my posts.

 

[robert derrick]

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God's will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education.
"co" just simply does NOT mean "equal to".

Subordinate mediators (such as you) are entirely dependent on the One Mediator, or that verse forbids you from being a subordinate mediator every time you pray for someone, which is absurd. 1 Tim 2 does not disprove the doctrine of the Communion of Saints one single bit.
And not a Living Temple? Your anti-Mary animus is not biblical. Please use the quote feature so you don't butcher my posts.

And here we go with the classic accusation against them that defend Scripture against false teaching: 'My anti-Mary animus'

When Moriarty came to Sherlock Holmes apartment on Baker Street, he accused Holmes of persistently persecuting him. How? By Holmes persistently thwarted him in his crimes against law and humanity.

I have absolutely no animus whatsoever against my sister in the Lord, Mary who has apparently gone on to be eternally blessed in the presence of the Lord with the rest of the faithful that now sleep.

It is the push of a cult for Mary that attacks Scripture and true faith of Jesus, that I object to. All you have is a bunch of rhetorical and mystical pseudo-intellectualism made up by a bunch of 2nd and 3rd rate 'theologians', who had entirely too much time on their hands.

 

[Taodeching]

How is it, that the true God Jesus upon the earth, while praying to the Father in heaven calls Him, the only true God. (John 17:3)?

Ah, your not a Christian. Maybe someday, good journey

 

[robert derrick]

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God's will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

The solution to problems like this is not suppression but education.
"co" just simply does NOT mean "equal to".

Subordinate mediators (such as you) are entirely dependent on the One Mediator, or that verse forbids you from being a subordinate mediator every time you pray for someone, which is absurd. 1 Tim 2 does not disprove the doctrine of the Communion of Saints one single bit.
And not a Living Temple? Your anti-Mary animus is not biblical. Please use the quote feature so you don't butcher my posts.

While I willingly applauded your fair speeches and silky-smooth assemblage of spiritualist wording, it is proven to me that you have absolutely no Scripture whatsoever for it.

You have not quoted a simple Scripture plainly written to prove anything you have said. (Howbeit wonderfully said).

At this point will offer my conclusions from your supra-Scripture writings and doctrines:

1. Mary devoted to temple worship for life, and old widower Joseph with kids of his own, is a myth and legend without Scripture, made up entirely for the purpose of founding a cult worship around them. Like Arian's 'created christ' theory, it is pagan in it's inception and application to life.

2. The ministry of Christ, which is the heavenly New Jerusalem and mother of us all (Gal 4), has been transformed into a cosmological Mary womb.

3. The clear promise to present us all as chaste virgins to Jesus has been moved to that of the whole church body only, wihtout pertaining to any individuals therein, except of course for the only one entitled to that title: the Blessed Virgin Mary. Which also is not Scripture.

4. Mary is given special assistant status in the Lord's redemption of us all, solely because she did not fail to believe the angel's message of the coming Christ and allowed herself to be overshadowed by the Holy Ghost. In that regard, she deserves no more special 'assistance of redemption' status than Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Deborah, Samuel, Ruth, David, and the prophets of old, not to mention John Baptist.

5. Finally, a theology of 'subordinate mediators' is made to work alongside the One mediator in Scripture, Jesus, Who is the only One who gave Himself a ransom for my sins (1 Tim 2). And the title of 'subordinate mediator' is achieved by intercessory pray for one another. Biblical Mediation for redemption of mankind is as far above praying for one another, as the Lord Jesus is far above any redeemed prayerful saint in Him, including our sister Mary. (And whatever the 'communion of the saints doctrine' is, I am quite sure it isn't in Scripture either)

Mary is not the new Demeter. And the long-time effort to assemble us into her secret mystical womb smacks clearly of a Christianized Eleusinian mystery.

Neither Mary nor Moses nor John Baptist played in 'assistance' in my Redemption from Jesus. He only laid His life down a ransom for my sins. We do not need to build a tabernacle for Mary in heaven.

"And behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only." (Matthew 17)

And I do appreciate any prayers from any other believer in Jesus, especially them which go by the title Catholic; however, that does not make any of us 'subordinate mediators'. Absolutely NO ONE mediates between myself and the One Mediator between myself and God: Jesus only. Believe me, I've been down that road before, and it is false and destructive to faith of Jesus only.

 

[robert derrick]

Ah, your not a Christian. Maybe someday, good journey

This question was a demanded of me by a unitarian, who claims Jesus Christ was created. As well as by a 'Oneness' believer, who claims the Son and the Father to be the same Person. I provided you plain confession as a believer of the Three Persons eternally in the Godhead.

I asked you this question in good faith, in hopes you could answer it to refute the unitarian and Oneness claims. And instead of help, I get insipid childishness, that must come from an inability to even try and answer an honest question of Scripture.

I care nothing for your ideas about me being a Jesus believer or not. I know what I am in Christ Jesus. What I do object to at this point is that I have taken much time to explain myself in the unfounded face of your accusations, while you have provided nothing in return.

You are not a serious person to be taken seriously in matters of Scriptural faith.

"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down..." (Rev 12)

 

[rstrats]

In terms of Mary as co-redeemer, she did in fact, cooperate in the redemption. When she made her fiat to accept God's will for her to bear the Christ Child she was cooperating in the redemption of mankind for it was through her that the Redeemer came into the world.

In a way, then, Joseph could also be considered a co-redeemer since he cooperated with the situation by not putting Mary away after being told by an angel to not be afraid to take Mary as his wife.

 

[Illuminator]

While I willingly applauded your fair speeches and silky-smooth assemblage of spiritualist wording, it is proven to me that you have absolutely no Scripture whatsoever for it.

You have not quoted a simple Scripture plainly written to prove anything you have said. (Howbeit wonderfully said).

I used plenty of scripture. You are just blind to them.

At this point will offer my conclusions from your supra-Scripture writings and doctrines:

Your conclusions are false and nothing to do with Catholic doctrines.

1. Mary devoted to temple worship for life, and old widower Joseph with kids of his own, is a myth and legend without Scripture, made up entirely for the purpose of founding a cult worship around them. Like Arian's 'created christ' theory, it is pagan in it's inception and application to life.

2. The ministry of Christ, which is the heavenly New Jerusalem and mother of us all (Gal 4), has been transformed into a cosmological Mary womb.

"Cult worship" is insulting as it is false. Always asserted but never proven. Not understanding is one thing, refusing to understand is something else. The heavenly New Jerusalem is cosmological as can be.

3. The clear promise to present us all as chaste virgins to Jesus has been moved to that of the whole church body only, wihtout pertaining to any individuals therein, except of course for the only one entitled to that title: the Blessed Virgin Mary. Which also is not Scripture.

Luke 1:42 – “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). Is Luke 1:42 missing from your Bible? Your anti-Mary mindset is not biblical.

4. Mary is given special assistant status in the Lord's redemption of us all, solely because she did not fail to believe the angel's message of the coming Christ and allowed herself to be overshadowed by the Holy Ghost. In that regard, she deserves no more special 'assistance of redemption' status than Noah, Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Deborah, Samuel, Ruth, David, and the prophets of old, not to mention John Baptist.

If that's the case, then there is nothing special about the angel's message. You contradict yourself.
God's plan of salvation unfolded over centuries. Mary's cooperation was essential, (which you seem to deny) not incidental.

5. Finally, a theology of 'subordinate mediators' is made to work alongside the One mediator in Scripture, Jesus, Who is the only One who gave Himself a ransom for my sins (1 Tim 2). And the title of 'subordinate mediator' is achieved by intercessory pray for one another. Biblical Mediation for redemption of mankind is as far above praying for one another, as the Lord Jesus is far above any redeemed prayerful saint in Him, including our sister Mary. (And whatever the 'communion of the saints doctrine' is, I am quite sure it isn't in Scripture either)

A straw man fallacy. Again, you refuse to understand. Praying for one another depends on the sole mediatorship. You turn it into a false dichotomy, the Bible doesn't do that, and neither do Catholics..

Mary is not the new Demeter. And the long-time effort to assemble us into her secret mystical womb smacks clearly of a Christianized Eleusinian mystery.

Your assaults on Catholic teaching smacks clearly of ignorance and prejudice.

Neither Mary nor Moses nor John Baptist played in 'assistance' in my Redemption from Jesus. He only laid His life down a ransom for my sins. We do not need to build a tabernacle for Mary in heaven.

You don't even have tabernacles. Most of Protestantism has supplanted the Table of the Lord with a podium. Where is that in the Bible???

"And behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him. And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only." (Matthew 17)

And I do appreciate any prayers from any other believer in Jesus, especially them which go by the title Catholic; however, that does not make any of us 'subordinate mediators'. Absolutely NO ONE mediates between myself and the One Mediator between myself and God: Jesus only. Believe me, I've been down that road before, and it is false and destructive to faith of Jesus only.

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
You call this "false and destructive" out of invincible ignorance because that is what you have been trained to think.

SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic

 

[JunChosen]

Luke 1:42 – “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). Is Luke 1:42 missing from your Bible? Your anti-Mary mindset is not biblical

Consider what Scripture has to say:

Mary was blessed amongst women ONLY in the sense that she was chosen to give birth to the Lord Jesus [Luke 1:27-28].

Likewise, just as John the Baptist the "greater prophet" in the sense that he was blessed to announce the start of Jesus' ministry [Luke 26-28].

Are the passages above missing from your Catholic bible?

To God Be The Glory

 

[robert derrick]

I used plenty of scripture. You are just blind to them.
Your conclusions are false and nothing to do with Catholic doctrines.
"Cult worship" is insulting as it is false. Always asserted but never proven. Not understanding is one thing, refusing to understand is something else. The heavenly New Jerusalem is cosmological as can be.
Luke 1:42 – “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). Is Luke 1:42 missing from your Bible? Your anti-Mary mindset is not biblical.

If that's the case, then there is nothing special about the angel's message. You contradict yourself.
God's plan of salvation unfolded over centuries. Mary's cooperation was essential, (which you seem to deny) not incidental.

A straw man fallacy. Again, you refuse to understand. Praying for one another depends on the sole mediatorship. You turn it into a false dichotomy, the Bible doesn't do that, and neither do Catholics..
Your assaults on Catholic teaching smacks clearly of ignorance and prejudice.
You don't even have tabernacles. Most of Protestantism has supplanted the Table of the Lord with a podium. Where is that in the Bible???

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
You call this "false and destructive" out of invincible ignorance because that is what you have been trained to think.

SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic

I have no doubt you believe from the heart what you are trying to teach, and I also sincerely respect the amount of time to learn it perfectlty, which is demonstrated by your very fluent presentation of it.

The real problem here is that your gain conclusions from Scripture in a slippery way.

One simple example: The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.”

All of your conclusions are arrived at in this manner. There is no integrity of Scripture nor language, when you move from 'blessed among' to 'most blessed'. You have erred by 'wresting' the Scripture out of it's place (2 Peter 3) (And 'going to the Greek' won't help)

"...there is no superlative in the Greek language."

Sorry, but frankly that is ridiculous. And I find it hard with your training for you make such a blatant error. The Greek has both comparative and superlative appellations.

And when God wants to declare certain better or more blessed than others, He does so: "Thou shalt be blessed above all people..." (Deut 7) God's people shall be blessed above: most blessed among the nations. None are blessed above one another in His faith.

And likewise He honors those believers who always prove what is ministered by the Scripture with the comparative increase: "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica" (Acts 17)

The English from the Greek is plain, Mary is blessed among-with women. Otherwise, God would have simply said she is more or most blessed. He did not and will not.

 

[robert derrick]

I used plenty of scripture. You are just blind to them.
Your conclusions are false and nothing to do with Catholic doctrines.
"Cult worship" is insulting as it is false. Always asserted but never proven. Not understanding is one thing, refusing to understand is something else. The heavenly New Jerusalem is cosmological as can be.
Luke 1:42 – “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). Is Luke 1:42 missing from your Bible? Your anti-Mary mindset is not biblical.

If that's the case, then there is nothing special about the angel's message. You contradict yourself.
God's plan of salvation unfolded over centuries. Mary's cooperation was essential, (which you seem to deny) not incidental.

A straw man fallacy. Again, you refuse to understand. Praying for one another depends on the sole mediatorship. You turn it into a false dichotomy, the Bible doesn't do that, and neither do Catholics..
Your assaults on Catholic teaching smacks clearly of ignorance and prejudice.
You don't even have tabernacles. Most of Protestantism has supplanted the Table of the Lord with a podium. Where is that in the Bible???

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
You call this "false and destructive" out of invincible ignorance because that is what you have been trained to think.

SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic

"I used plenty of scripture. You are just blind to them."

You have misused plenty of Scripture, by either direct manipulation (as the case above) or by false conclusion, that you have learned from others' false writings. A hallmark of false teaching is that no Scripture simply says it plainly for all to read.

Show me one single verse of Scripture, without manipulation or reasoning that relies on other sources, that simply says what you believe.

If Mary is indeed One and Only Blessed Virgin in heaven forever and ever above all others in glory, then God would certainly say so plainly in Scripture. Quote it.

 

[robert derrick]

I used plenty of scripture. You are just blind to them.
Your conclusions are false and nothing to do with Catholic doctrines.
"Cult worship" is insulting as it is false. Always asserted but never proven. Not understanding is one thing, refusing to understand is something else. The heavenly New Jerusalem is cosmological as can be.
Luke 1:42 – “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). Is Luke 1:42 missing from your Bible? Your anti-Mary mindset is not biblical.

If that's the case, then there is nothing special about the angel's message. You contradict yourself.
God's plan of salvation unfolded over centuries. Mary's cooperation was essential, (which you seem to deny) not incidental.

A straw man fallacy. Again, you refuse to understand. Praying for one another depends on the sole mediatorship. You turn it into a false dichotomy, the Bible doesn't do that, and neither do Catholics..
Your assaults on Catholic teaching smacks clearly of ignorance and prejudice.
You don't even have tabernacles. Most of Protestantism has supplanted the Table of the Lord with a podium. Where is that in the Bible???

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
You call this "false and destructive" out of invincible ignorance because that is what you have been trained to think.

SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic

"Mary's cooperation was essential, (which you seem to deny) not incidental."

I never said Mary's faith was 'incidental' as in accidental or happenstance, but rather that at key points in history God always had persons of faith essential to His plan of redemption on earth.

Noah's faith was 'essential', else no person of faith on earth would have remained, and no Mary to believe God in the first place. The whole reason God flooded the earth was to save Noah from being either persuaded from the faith or killed. That is essential.

What you are preaching as Mary being blessed more or above others of faith, is to say that she was more essential to God than Noah, which is of course not true, because Scripture NEVER says that.

In fact, we could use James' condemnation of having respect of persons in the faith, to be proof that God certainly wouldn't do so. (James 2)

So, to say that one must honor Mary above or more than all others of faith in God is false. You only do so, because you want and like to, not because God said to.

 

[robert derrick]

I used plenty of scripture. You are just blind to them.
Your conclusions are false and nothing to do with Catholic doctrines.
"Cult worship" is insulting as it is false. Always asserted but never proven. Not understanding is one thing, refusing to understand is something else. The heavenly New Jerusalem is cosmological as can be.
Luke 1:42 – “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus.” The phrase “blessed are you among women” really means “you are most blessed of all women.” A circumlocution is used because there is no superlative in the Greek language. Note also that Elizabeth praises Mary first, and then Jesus. This is hyperdulia (but not latria which is worship owed to God alone). Is Luke 1:42 missing from your Bible? Your anti-Mary mindset is not biblical.

If that's the case, then there is nothing special about the angel's message. You contradict yourself.
God's plan of salvation unfolded over centuries. Mary's cooperation was essential, (which you seem to deny) not incidental.

A straw man fallacy. Again, you refuse to understand. Praying for one another depends on the sole mediatorship. You turn it into a false dichotomy, the Bible doesn't do that, and neither do Catholics..
Your assaults on Catholic teaching smacks clearly of ignorance and prejudice.
You don't even have tabernacles. Most of Protestantism has supplanted the Table of the Lord with a podium. Where is that in the Bible???

1 Tim 2:1-2 – because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul’s teaching about Jesus as the “one mediator,” Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 – because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ’s role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 – therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).

1 Cor. 3:9 – God invites us to participate in Christ’s work because we are God’s “fellow workers” and one family in the body of Christ. God wants His children to participate. The phrase used to describe “fellow workers” is “sunergoi,” which literally means synergists, or cooperators with God in salvific matters. Does God need fellow workers? Of course not, but this shows how much He, as Father, loves His children. God wants us to work with Him.

Mark 16:20 – this is another example of how the Lord “worked with them” (“sunergountos”). God cooperates with us. Out of His eternal love, He invites our participation.

Rom. 8:28 – God “works for good with” (the Greek is “sunergei eis agathon”) those who love Him. We work as subordinate mediators.

2 Cor. 6:1 – “working together” (the Greek is “sunergountes”) with him, don’t accept His grace in vain. God allows us to participate in His work, not because He needs our help, but because He loves us and wants to exalt us in His Son. It is like the father who lets his child join him in carrying the groceries in the house. The father does not need help, but he invites the child to assist to raise up the child in dignity and love.
You call this "false and destructive" out of invincible ignorance because that is what you have been trained to think.

SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic

"...there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators)"

I've made the point once already, and so will do only once more. Even as you manipulate the meaning of "among" women into 'above' or 'more than', so you manipulate the meaning of intercession for one another into being subordinate mediators to Jesus as the One Mediator between God and man.

The difference between being and intercessor and a mediator, is the difference between Jesus as Lord God, and us fellow believers in Him.

God uses the word 'Mediator' in the very specific capacity of Jesus Christ being the only one able to lay down His life as ransom for sin. (1 Titus 2).

God would no more accept our offering to pay for sins of others, than he would accept us as His mediator between Himself and others. God uses our intercessory prayers to help others, He does not use our mediating sacrifice to forgive others.

This is the main error of your teaching. Not only do you promote Mary as more blessed and essential in faith than others, but you compound the favoritism by exalting her to 'mediator' status with Jesus, in that faith in her and her work on earth is NOW essential alongside that of Jesus and His work on earth. I.e. without faith in her, we cannot have faith in Jesus for redemption.

That is the main error of 'Mary' worship and honoring her above all other women and men of faith, and it is cultish, because it is false.

"Cult worship" is insulting as it is false. Always asserted but never proven.

1. I say cult worship, because that is exactly what was fashionable among pagans, to invent cults around those who have gained fame in their lives. 'Cult worship' per se is not in itself wicked nor evil, but only a false direction of worship. So long as it does not affect our faith and worship of the true God and only Savior and only Mediator Jesus Christ.

2. No one has to prove your doctrine false, but you must prove it true by Scripture. The burden is not on others to disprove anything, but only to reject it as unscriptural. You have failed to do so, despite your rather eloquent and even elegant way of proposing it.

 

[robert derrick]

Consider what Scripture has to say:

Mary was blessed amongst women ONLY in the sense that she was chosen to give birth to the Lord Jesus [Luke 1:27-28].

Likewise, just as John the Baptist the "greater prophet" in the sense that he was blessed to announce the start of Jesus' ministry [Luke 26-28].

Are the passages above missing from your Catholic bible?

To God Be The Glory

Exactly. She on earth was neither more blessed nor more essential that any believer of history.

In in this regard, John wasn't so much a greater prophet, but rather no prophet was greater than he, because no prophet, apostle, minister, and believer is greater than any other before the Lord.

In fact, they make so much of Mary being better, greater, more blessed, more essential, that they have to spend much time denying that she is greater than her master, the Lord Jesus. (Luke 6)

 

[Illuminator]

Consider what Scripture has to say:

Mary was blessed amongst women ONLY in the sense that she was chosen to give birth to the Lord Jesus [Luke 1:27-28].

Isn't that enough?

Likewise, just as John the Baptist the "greater prophet" in the sense that he was blessed to announce the start of Jesus' ministry [Luke 26-28].

John the Baptist was a man.

"I used plenty of scripture. You are just blind to them."

You have misused plenty of Scripture, by either direct manipulation (as the case above) or by false conclusion, that you have learned from others' false writings. A hallmark of false teaching is that no Scripture simply says it plainly for all to read.

You hack up my posts and by not quoting me properly, in context, and create a straw man. If Scripture is so plain, why are Protestants so hopelessly divided over baptism?

Show me one single verse of Scripture, without manipulation or reasoning that relies on other sources, that simply says what you believe.

me: Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
you: Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the temporary virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

further reading: Catholic Doctrine of Mary: Introductory Biblical Guide

The Blessed Virgin Mary: Biblical & Catholic Overview

If Mary is indeed One and Only Blessed Virgin in heaven forever and ever above all others in glory, then God would certainly say so plainly in Scripture. Quote it.

I never said "above all". Scripture says "among women".

"Mary's cooperation was essential, (which you seem to deny) not incidental."

I never said Mary's faith was 'incidental' as in accidental or happenstance, but rather that at key points in history God always had persons of faith essential to His plan of redemption on earth.

But not Mary?

Noah's faith was 'essential', else no person of faith on earth would have remained, and no Mary to believe God in the first place. The whole reason God flooded the earth was to save Noah from being either persuaded from the faith or killed. That is essential.

But not Mary?

What you are preaching as Mary being blessed more or above others of faith, is to say that she was more essential to God than Noah, which is of course not true, because Scripture NEVER says that.

I never said that either. Another straw man. Hyperdulia is the same kind as dulia, just more of it, but it is not latria. Noah did not give birth to the Messiah.

In fact, we could use James' condemnation of having respect of persons in the faith, to be proof that God certainly wouldn't do so. (James 2).

James 2 doesn't say that, and James does not contradict Paul.

So, to say that one must honor Mary above or more than all others of faith in God is false. You only do so, because you want and like to, not because God said to.

Luke 1:42. You keep resisting. Devotions are not demanded, that's more anti-Catholic myth making. We freely choose to honor Mary because God honored her first.

Exactly. She on earth was neither more blessed nor more essential that any believer of history.

That is the exact opposite to Luke 1:42. Mary is blessed because she did the will of God perfectly, and so is everybody else who does the will of God. She is a model of faith, unless you want to argue that she didn't do the will of God, which is absurd.

In in this regard, John wasn't so much a greater prophet, but rather no prophet was greater than he, because no prophet, apostle, minister, and believer is greater than any other before the Lord.

I never said otherwise. But again, John the Baptist is not a woman.

In fact, they make so much of Mary being better, greater, more blessed, more essential, that they have to spend much time denying that she is greater than her master, the Lord Jesus. (Luke 6)

Luke 1:42, how many is that? 5 times?
We have to constantly deny that Mary is greater than her Master because anti-Mary Christians won't stop misrepresenting Catholic teachings.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Philip James]

Queen of heaven, Queen conceived without stain of sin. Ark of the Covenant, Door of heaven, Star of the morning, Healer of the sick, Refuge of sinners, Queen of the angels, Queen of the patriarchs, Queen of the confessors, Queen of all saints, Mystic Rose, Tower of David, Holy Mother of God, Holy Virgin of virgins, Mother of divine grace, Virgin worthy of veneration, Virgin worthy of praise, Powerful virgin, Merciful Virgin, Mirror of righteousness, Throne of wisdom, Source of our joy, Spiritual vessel, Venerable vessel

 

[Taodeching]

A wonderful rendition of Ave Maria