Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
What I'm saying is the whole context of scripture does not preclude that possibility. Or at the very least, it does not remove any application of the passage to those he did know, but just didn't know intimately.
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Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
I don't think that she was suggesting that. If you're just asking that for curiosity sake, fine, but I don't think she was suggesting that.
Plain as day, friend. It's right there.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Be careful. Justification has two distinct Biblical meanings. It can mean to be made righteous, and it can mean to be shown to be righteous. Paul is not wrong when he said, "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but it is the doers of the law who will be declared righteous." (Romans 3:13). It's just hard to discern which meaning of 'justified' (declared righteous) he is referring to, because both would be true in this case. It's just that we know it's impossible to be made righteous by doing the law. But it is true, nonetheless. You would have to keep the law in order to be made righteous by the law. Not just hear the law to be made righteous by the law.
Really? You are suggesting that Jesus was referring to Judas? To Caiaphas? First those are only two. Then Judas isn’t even a leader of Israel. Then Caiaphas, do you take him as one of them who have cast out demons, prophesy, and did wonders in the name of Jesus Christ?
Tong
R3294
The Grace of God covers your sins .You will not be damned for them.....” Your sins I will remember no more” .....our sins have been “ purged” by the Shed Blood of Jesus....
We won’t be damned for sins if we are Believers, but God will Chastise us for our sins here in our earthly lifetimes for our own good, just as we punish our children when they screw up.....
Believers also have the Holy Spirit within them and if you allow that Spirit to hang around long enough , God will Transform the “ inside of the Cup” into a better person as he Transforms us into the Image Of His Son....pretty much the point of Everything....anybody can “ change” or “ turn over a New Leaf”—- only God can TRANSFORM the inner man.....and that is what really counts ....
<<<Don't you even know that Jesus knows everything??? >>>
Of course I know that Jesus know everything. What does that have to do with Him saying “I never knew you”?
<<<You're TWISTING to fit YOUR unBiblical doctrine.>>>
So, what’s the ad hominem for? You happy doing that?
<<<BTW, thanks for saying I can NEVER be unsaved.>>>
Don’t thank me. I never said anything like that to you.
Tong
R3295
We have to “ Perservere”—— that “ Perserverance Power” is a gift from God—- just like “ Holiness” and “Righteousness”......Whatever God demands.....God Provides.......
OSAS judge! lol
OSAS is total nonsense!
John 15:6 (NKJV)
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Because many define grace as no effort on our part.
And define grace as nothing you do....instead of, " God acting in our life to do what we cannot do on our own. "DW
A long time ago when my children were young
I said some how to myself ...I do not want to wait to something happens to call out to Jesus, and so I prayed, read my Bible, sang songs of praise and thought of things I could do to love my children....and did them.
And I was still at the time under my Baptist teaching...
And out of the blue I had this Joy and Peace...Felt lifted in my body even I was on my feet.....
I look back and now see...that you can interact with the kingdom even you don't know everything the way you could known it like if I had read what was in the Bible before that experience.
But I figure God must have been pleased...
That was my first experience....around my 20's And of course what I did was because of His gracious Love And what I did after that was because of His Love.
There is a passage in Hebrews that says labour to enter His rest.....
Why don't we ever hear this preached?
And what does it mean to labour?
And what is the rest experienced?
Maybe one can imagine Jesus on that ship resting while the disciples were anxious and worried that they may die in the Storm.
He said, ye of little faith.....And so an Author put it like this: they had faith in Jesus but not the faith of Jesus.
Because Jesus obeyed His Father and His father did the work....isn't that amazing..to know your father has got your back. But to sum it up, the "rest" is: God is in control and we can stop trying to control things, knowing His will is perfect.
So what do you suppose the labour is?
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Not specifically. I'm showing you that at this time before the resurrection and the institution of the New Covenant certain unbelievers can indeed have legitimate gifts of the Spirit by virtue of holding an official office of ministry. If you are familiar with the old testament you'll see this to be true. I'm citing two examples right from Jesus' day.
Uh, yes, the Apostles are in fact leaders of Israel. They were appointed by Christ himself. They are the foundation of the church. Judas just proved to not be worthy of his appointment. And neither are most of the other 'spiritual' leaders appointed to office in Israel throughout their history, but who had legitimate powers of ministry, nonetheless.
Didn't you even read the John 11:49-51 reference I gave you?
49But one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.”51Caiaphas did not say this on his own. Instead, as high priest that year, he was prophesying that Jesus would die for the nation
If you're not familiar with the old covenant it'll be hard for you to accept that old covenant leaders were given legitimate gifts of the Spirit by virtue of their office, not by virtue of their relationship with God.
I am not arguing that you don’t have faith and Jesus. Nor am arguing about faith being the “conduit” of saving grace.
But having faith is not the same as having Jesus. Also, it is not faith that is the savior but Jesus is. So, if at all one is saved now and until kingdom come, that could only be the work of the Savior, Jesus Christ.
Tong
R3296
You are so right....As I was writing some answers myself I had to asked myself where did I fall at...
and it was the Give me, Give me Give me state and not Lord How can I please you....
Those who put their Faith in the Blood Plus NOTHING “ ARE” the closest to Jesus.....you don’t get it ...o am not surprised....Dallas Willard , whoever that idiot is, can kiss me where the sun doesn’t shine and I ain't talking about London... God help any man that would Trample the Blood Of Jesus in this manner....Ferris should be ashamed for liking that post...
If not for Christ’s Shed Blood That is splattered on a Heavenly Mercy Seat.....this entire Universe would be Eternally Damned....Damned with absolutely NO hope....and some are ignorant enough to bad- mouth it....May God have Mercy on that ignorant Fool, Mr. Willard....
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And you only referred to Judas and Caiaphas as to whom He is referring to, for which I have commented already. So, go ahead and tell us who you say was Jesus talking to there, besides the two.
Tong
R3297
There is a saying Christ is in you but are you in Christ.
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test? 2 Cor 13:5
Tong-Are you saying that justification is by doing what the law says?
Remember we had this discussion how we uphold the Law through faith. That the law was not the source of salvation but forever the course? What do you think it means in Ezekiel: And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Because it can only be understood as a works gospel. Most in the church can only hear the call to obedience as a works gospel. So the church doesn't preach it.
It means to strive for obedience in your faith....
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever lacks these traits is nearsighted to the point of blindness, having forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.10Therefore, brothers, strive to make your calling and election sure. For if you practice these things you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a lavish reception into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Again, this can only be understood by most in the church as a works gospel, so it is not taught.
"Righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit" Romans 14:17
The very thing the church longs for, but does not know how to lay hold of. Instead deferring to things like Osas teachings to get that which only obedience to God's commands, summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself' will get them.
So why if we sin do we need to repent?
Sense sins are already covered....
I already answer in another post....
Because I've yet to learn patience to wait for this answer :)
<<<I don't think it necessarily precludes the person who He did know at one time, but who He never knew intimately.>>>
So there it is. You are actually injecting a qualification in the “know” there which is not there in the passage. That’s the problem, apparently.
But as I pointed, Jesus never knew them. Whether that is intimate or not, the thing is, He never knew them. Jesus clearly never knew them, never had a personal relationship with them.
But if you think that He knew them before or at one time, even while Jesus said He never knew them, so be it with you then.
Tong
R3298
Well, if you want to inject such qualification to the “know” there, that’s your call. As for me, such is plain and clear, He never knew them, that is, He had never a personal relationship with them.
By the way, can you tell us what you mean by Jesus knowing people but not intimately?
Tong
R3299
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Wow! This time it's ad hom mixed with out-and-out false accusations!
Nice. :)
As much as I want to avoid engaging in a verbal sparring match as opposed to an actual discussion, here goes:
I actually like other "lines" better: Like "straw man," for instance. Also "antinomianism," "dispensationalism," "modern Christendom," and "cheap grace peddling." How's that for openness?
Speaking of opening up and answering honestly, I couldn't help but notice that you didn't address my point about popular support directly, at all.
I only replied to you initially to refute some of the nonsense you were spouting; I kept it impersonal. But, as always, you descended directly into mud-slinging, as you always do.
Unless you open up and answer these challenges honestly, don't expect me to reply. :)
Nice. :)
As much as I want to avoid engaging in a verbal sparring match as opposed to an actual discussion, here goes:
Please prove your accusation that my favorite "line" is "ad hominem."
Not sure how to address this. You're basically just calling me a liar without offering any evidence (pretty much the textbook case of ad hominem--I can't help that you don't want to wear the shoe that fits).
I actually like other "lines" better: Like "straw man," for instance. Also "antinomianism," "dispensationalism," "modern Christendom," and "cheap grace peddling." How's that for openness?
Please prove that I am "always quoting that lady." This can be done easily enough using the search box up in the right-hand corner.
Frankly, I don't find any of this humorous. Trolling is really annoying. That's why it's so attractive to folks who don't really want to discuss anything seriously.
Even if you could prove this (which you can't) why would anyone want to hang around and chat with someone who only wants to troll?
You flatter yourself here. More baseless accusations. But what else would an ad hom specialist say?
Here you're basically just saying "I know you are but what am I?"--A proper schoolyard-ism.
More condescending nonsense
Why do I feel like there's a lack of sincerity here? Oh, I know! Because it's just more trolling.
Speaking of opening up and answering honestly, I couldn't help but notice that you didn't address my point about popular support directly, at all.
I only replied to you initially to refute some of the nonsense you were spouting; I kept it impersonal. But, as always, you descended directly into mud-slinging, as you always do.
Unless you open up and answer these challenges honestly, don't expect me to reply. :)
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