new version of OSAS?

[Cooper]

<<<By our works we are known both by God and man. What we do and how we live our life, is a reflection of the inner man. >>>

We are known by man by our works, for our works somehow reveals the heart of man. But God knows us even without our works, for God sees the heart of man.

Tong
R3386

Yes, and God knows your heart, thoughts and deeds, so watch out and do not return to your pre-Christian condition because there is no second crucifixion for your sins. You have been washed in the blood of the Lamb once, it will not happen a second time.
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[Corlove13]

You and me both, John. I'm all in. We're not really discussing anything here. We're arguing. Eternal security vs. conditional security. There's no reconcilable way to paint it. Either you believe salvation is a once-and-done deal or you don't. I can't see any middle ground. This forum is constantly inundated with the debate. Nothing ever gets settled. I don't see how I always get sucked into it. It's almost like a sickness: The irresistible urge to debate eternal security. AAaarrgh!

This is how Dallas Willard defines Salvation:

Salvation is not an event it is a life. It is not just forgiveness and a “ticket to heaven” -it is an interactive life with God, participating now in what Jesus is doing on earth. The Biblical word for salvation is deliverance.

 

[marks]

Or maybe some “ self- depreciation” to kinda lighten the mood....I guess it’s just how one views things, isn't it ? You misunderstood my intentions 100% ....methinks you might have a problem with me—- care to Spit it Out?

No, I wasn't meaning you are stirring up strife.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It means to have God's Spirit in you.

Go on. There's more. Is there more to being reborn in your understanding? Is there a change to who or what we are, for instance?

Much love!

 

[marks]

It means to have your sin guilt removed and a declaration of righteousness put in it's place.

Same question . . . is this all it means to you? Are you otherwise the same ol' sinner, just (falsely) declared innocent, while being the same ol' sinner?

Follow-up question . . . What process does God use to justify us?

These are important questions, we need to have a good understanding of these things so we can properly know what God did.

Much love!

 

[Corlove13]

This passage needs to be studied...

1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father also loves those born of Him.2By this we know that we love the children of God: when we love God and keep His commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome, 4because everyone born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.5Who then overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 6This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ—not by water alone, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies to this, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify:8the Spirit, the water, and the blood—and these three are in agreement.9Even if we accept human testimony, the testimony of God is greater. For this is the testimony that God has given about His Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God has this testimony within him; whoever does not believe God has made Him out to be a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given about His Son.11And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 1John 5

 

[theefaith]

This is how Dallas Willard defines Salvation:

Salvation is not an event it is a life. It is not just forgiveness and a “ticket to heaven” -it is an interactive life with God, participating now in what Jesus is doing on earth. The Biblical word for salvation is deliverance.

Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:




1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

 

[marks]

Yes, those horrible old testament scriptures that make one wise for salvation through faith in Christ and for instruction and training in righteousness!

From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness 2 Timothy 3:15-16​

Mock the Scriptures if you will! Though you mean to be mocking me, I'm sure! What does Scripture tell us regarding mockers?

You deflect from the issue by your mocking. But that does not replace a valid answer.

Certainly all Scripture is useful! That's not what is in question. Is NT faith in the New Covenant to be defined according to men's faith before that covenant? Looking first within the New Testament to understand the terms and concepts in the New Testament will give the clear answer.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You mean like

I'm talking about yours.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Go on. There's more. Is there more to being reborn in your understanding? Is there a change to who or what we are, for instance?

Much love!

Yes, there is a change. You become a different person....

The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. 1 Samuel 10:6
​

This is the truth that escaped Nicodemus—a man who should have known the scriptures—when Jesus said you must born again. John 3:9-10.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Same question . . . is this all it means to you? Are you otherwise the same ol' sinner, just (falsely) declared innocent, while being the same ol' sinner?

Negative. It means you have been cleansed. You have been changed into somebody who can serve the living God from a clean conscience....

The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! Hebrews 9:13-14​

 

[marks]

Yes, there is a change. You become a different person....

The Spirit of the Lord will come powerfully upon you, and you will prophesy with them; and you will be changed into a different person. 1 Samuel 10:6
​

This is the truth that escaped Nicodemus—a man who should have known the scriptures—when Jesus said you must born again. John 3:9-10.

Apples and oranges . . . being changed, and being born, these are different things you know. God did not say, Now all things are changed, He said, now all things are new.

You continue to pursue an OT understanding of NT concepts.

Of course, in going outside the New Testament, to what happened with Saul, I can easily understand your reasoning, as you seek to establish that those whom God birthed, that He would yet kill them, and so cast doubt on the efficacy of His salvation.

Does being born from God mean that you share His nature?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Negative. It means you have been cleansed. You have been changed into somebody who can serve the living God from a clean conscience....

In what way changed?

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Follow-up question . . . What process does God use to justify us?

He dies the death we deserve for our sins.
He rises from the dead because he has no sin of his own for which death can hold him.
He presents himself before the Father in heaven as the acceptable Sacrifice for sin on our behalf.
The Sacrifice is acceptable, and as a result the temple is sanctified and the Holy Spirit fills the temple.
All of this is applied to the person who receives it by faith, believing in it.

 

[marks]

All of this is applied to the person

Applied how?

And thank you, btw, for playing along with me!

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Mock the Scriptures if you will!

I'm mocking you, not the scriptures, lol. In fun, of course. I know that you are the victim of a church that has rejected all things 'old testament'. But you and I won't fully understand justification and sanctification without the old testament scriptures. Those scriptures that can make one wise for salvation through faith in Christ.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Applied how?

You cut off the part that says how....

"...who receives it by faith, believing in it."

And thank you, btw, for playing along with me!

No problem. It's fun. It's always beneficial to review the truths of our salvation now and again.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I'm talking about yours.

I just took that situation right out of scripture. It's not really mine. Osas says it's hypothetical. And you say, since it's hypothetical, we can just ignore it (my paraphrase).

 

[marks]

I know that you are the victim of a church that has rejected all things 'old testament'

That's an inaccurate assumption to make.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I just took that situation right out of scripture. It's not really mine. Osas says it's hypothetical. And you say, since it's hypothetical, we can just ignore it (my paraphrase).

Let me be clear, I'm talking about hypotheticals devised by people on the forum. If you were to pose a hypothetical to me, I'm not interested.

Scripture is not in the same class as human conversation of course.

Much love!